|
TvZ Mech Play
Introduction:
Hi, I'm Pam/Jicks, high random master on the european server
This thread is about TvZ Mech Play, especially about a deadly timing push
This is a build which took me time to refine/optimize, each step are important and thoughtful
I have huge result with it, taking several wins against better player than me.
it's not a cheese and it's really hard for the zerg to deal with it, there is no hardcounter to this push.
It works on each maps, even the biggest, some adjustements are needed such as a flying rax for shakuras plateau for instance.
About Mech Play, I'll developp it in its paragraph, but it doesn't require much apm to execute.
Overview:
+ Show Spoiler +
The build starts with factory/reactor expand, something common, bringing its flaws/advantages already known.
The idea is to show to the zerg standard play, and surprise him with tight timing and BFH
Map control is quite easy to take with the helions, with active scouting you can take your expand quickly and safe
This push really punishes greedy zerg/teching zerg, hitting before muta/infestors, and with proper control you can save enough units to deal with them in the zerg base
You don't have to deal with speedbanes neither, and 2 bases bling allin are easy to handle with the helions
At home, it targets the late game, with double armory/third expand quite early, and you have the time to react to the zerg's tech choice (except drop, but if he has search it before the push you kill him before it finishes)
Great against ling/bling
Needs adjustement against roaches
The build order:
+ Show Spoiler +
Constant Svc/Supply production as needed
10 supply
12 rax
13 extractor
15 orbital command
16 supply
2 - 3 marines
18 factory (@100gaz)
19 reactor (@50gaz)
20 command center (@400 minerals)
22 second extractor
22 supply
2 helions
27 second factory
29 tech lab on the barrack
Switch with the factory as soon as the third helion is out, begin harass
Constant marine production
Produce in this order:
2 tanks, Blue flames upgrades, constant helion production, siege mode upgrade
Push towards the zerg base at the 8 minutes mark with 2 tanks, 5 - 8 helions (if the first three are alive) ~~ 10 marines and 2 svc on auto repair
Rally the helion production on the tanks,
Keep a scout near the zerg base to stop creep spread
Variation:
If you scout/feel that the zerg is going roaches, skip blue flames upgrades, produce 3 tanks before siege mode, do a fourth after and go push at 40/80 siege mode tech
You'll need more svc to be efficient, siege wisely
Drop play:
At this stage of the game (only 2 gaz), it's really penalizing to seek another tech, so it's possible to do elevator drop play with helions and marine while taking a third, but it doesn't blend that much with mech play from my point of view
Still possible, so i'll add replay picturing it
What if the zerg is aggressiv:
+ Show Spoiler +
Early pressure:
Going with 2 - 3 marine, faking a bunker rush ಠ_ಠ
Early pressure from the zerg:
There's some option that the z has, most of them are bad and easy to deal with
If you don't see an expo/delayed one, put a bunker one bloc away of your supply, keep your units at home, 1 - 2 svc near the supply-bunker in auto repair
Baneling bust: Easy to deal with, proper macro with helions is needed, the bunker keep the marine alive
Roach Rush (+ sling): Definitely the most threatening one, but with enough svc to keep the bunker and supply alive (so the roaches can't hit the bunker), you're ahead as long as you took these precautions
I won several games being roach busted (without scouting it), with svc loss
Pressure after hatch first:
As you have map control with the helions, you can see it coming, it's key to keep these helions alive
Roaches bust: Not viable, the tanks will be out in time, really easy to micro when they're out of their creep. Keep the build order, it's standard to transition into mass sling right after that
Mass sling: A wall of supply with one bunker is needed, and good helions control
2 base banelings bust: looks ok to deal with before blue flames, easy once they're done
Similar push timing:
While moving, put your helions in a different group and clean the towers, if the zerg tries to be aggressiv, you should see it
Off creep, as long as you're keeping your units together, you'll be ahead
While Pushing:
+ Show Spoiler +
Constant svc production, constant helion production, constant supply production
At home you need to
Put an ebay
Double extrator at the expand
Double armory
produce a second reactor on the rax
Add a third factory on the vacant reactor
If you see spire, add 2 - 3 turrets per expand to be totally safe, produce thors
If you see roaches, stop helion production, do a wall of supply with one bunker, keep in mind to place your tanks out of their range, turret at the entrance of your base
If you see infestor pit, you should have already won the game :o). turret at the entrance of your base
Launch third CC inbase
About Mech Play - Late game:
+ Show Spoiler +
You'll hear and read a lot of things about Mech play, the main thing is its supposed slowness
I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH THAT
What are the cores of your army ? Thors and tanks
Tank is the core army of marine tank, Medivacs and marines allow some shenanigans (but the same can be applied for Mech play, you'll just need to add medivac to your composition which can be more helpful than expected)
Thors is 1.88 speed, Tanks is 2.25, it's 17%slower
BUT
Mutas can't be boxed, and Thors have greater range. With proper home defense you don't fear muta
If he has high muta count, so do you with thors, go kill him
Thors with 2 attack upgrade 2 shot mutas
You don't have to leapfrog, you can a-move behing the minerals of your opponent's main base, it's that APM-dependant
Helions helps you deal with slings runby
It's really difficult for the zerg to do roaches runby, and this kind of move is more of a suicide than the sling/muta is
Plus, there's banshee to prevent this kind of thing
A choice I make is not to do planetary fortress, you don't have to fear sling runby and PF is not so good against roaches)
One bunker with marine + turret help against infestors-muta
Map control - with helions, regular scan are needed to adapt your production to the zerg's
Keeping the upgrades running is the KEY point of this build, because thor is imba, but 3/3 thors are insane
Infestors - Regular comp with roaches: dealable with high tank count, but you really need to do good scouting to prevent bad positioning
Heavy infestors play - with sling, eventually broods/ultra: Ghosts: Emp the infestors, snipe the broods/ultra, ???, profit
Broodlords: Useless against 3/3 thors, they can't be upgraded as much as your army is
Replay/video support
+ Show Spoiler +Here are some replays ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-223272.jpg) Against top 16 gm ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-223273.jpg) Against Roach play ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-223274.jpg) Infestors play ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-223595.jpg) Infestors/Ultra play ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-224046.jpg) Masse speedlings ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-224319.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +French:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoZqS9q4c50
Engrish:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dstYF2IyQe0
|
Nice! As a new player every guide I come across is useful, and this one is not an exception. 
Thanks a lot for putting your time into this
|
This gets a thumbs up just because of your accent
|
YAY
thanks for sharing and vids and all that and just cus its mech and i play T!
thank you!
o yea u forgot, since u leave at 8:30 it hits right before early mutas too eh?
|
This is a good build. I like to go double factory with reactor and tech lab and do early pressure on the Zerg so this will be a good slight altercation.
|
Nice. I saw lastshadow do something like this on his stream a while ago. I like doing this on Shak as you can get a real beast contain on it. Good stuff bro.
|
Hmm, it sounds like my actual build on the ladder, in much better since you put in it a good quick expand. I definitely try to update my build reducing the reactor hellions from 6 to 4 and putting down this CC.
Thanks for the build.
|
Hmm this build is very good however as someone who's played a lot of Zerg I can tell you that if the zerg starts pumping out roaches as well as drones at about the 6:30 min mark zvz style they'll crush this timing.
I'm just completely into having roaches early on in the game vs T rather than the nomal ling heavy style...
But from my Terran perspective, and also from the metagame perspective I predict that if people start using this build more often more and more zergs will open roach ling rather then ling bling.
|
About Roaches
The third replay I've put (against xaM) shows what happens if the z goes roaches along with some drones (he had 39 when I pushed)
he maybe doesn't have the best build order, but the game was particular because neither of us focus fired and I didn't siege, but in the same time, out of creep and without speed, I don't think it's easy to catch tanks if the t reacts, and has some svc repairing
But yeah, ling bling is the easier to deal with (I do damages in a map where it's hard to push and without efficient micro) and roaches*sling can be hard to deal with (especially if I skip blues flames and he goes full sling after 5 - 6 roaches
But the goal of this push is to keep the zerg at the same econ as the t
As a zerg, my build is designed to punish timing push (a little like moon did to bomber during the dreamhack), so yeah I know the flaws of this
That's a point I forgot to made in the op, the way this build can be adapted to the z behavior
|
i have been doing something similar but your version is way way more refined. Very nice video and thanks for your contribution
|
You should include the factory reactor expand build order too because I don't really know it.
Also, you should mention how many units you should have when you push at 8:30 mark so it makes it easier for the guide to be understood.
But yeah, I watched the english video, loved how you actually were able to express your points well enough that they'd be understood even though you're not too good at english. I've found myself too that mech play vs zerg is really good and I probably will try this build soon too.
|
On July 27 2011 15:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
o yea u forgot, since u leave at 8:30 it hits right before early mutas too eh?
8.30 is way before early mutas.
Early mutas will pop up at 10-11, but if you harras with hellions the zerg must defend and wont be able to tech that greedy to mutas.
I also play mech in my TvZs and i win most of em.
I never tried this build, but i have to say that you need to add ghosts if your pushs fail more or less early, cause zerg will answer with ifnestors or broodlords to your mechcomposition, and ghosts roflstomp both of em.
GL/HF with mech against zerg, its pure ♥ to see 200 supply zergarmys go down while the mechplayer just loose 10 bf-hellions, 20 supply....cuuuute.
/edit: watched the english youtube video and think you easily won it with your first push if you microd your marines instead of let banelings run into them :D
nice guide, will try it.
|
This isnt pure mech, its more bio mech, cuz of you know, all the marines. Still not bad.
User was warned for this post
|
Since I'm in one of those videos I feel like contributing :D
I have to say that this mech style is the strongest I played against so far. The first push is hard to fend off and it's even harder to catch him transitioning into mech. If you don't know this style as Zerg you will most likely make mutas which pretty much loses you the game.
Definitely worth a try.
|
It looks great, but I feel that your number of units is very low. Mass speedling would own this, no? I also wonder how you hold a 2base baneling bust. This comes with some banelings and a ton of lings. Good work
|
@Snowbear
With BFH supporting this push. Nah! If Terran sees mass lings and blings he'll just pump more hellions, and after they are gone basically the zerg is going to be pumping out roaches.
|
On July 28 2011 04:08 Squigly wrote:
This isnt pure mech, its more bio mech, cuz of you know, all the marines. Still not bad.
User was warned for this post
Ha i got warned for this. Must be some power drunk mod XD
Ive tried this build out and it actually works wonders. Thumbs up.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
Very nice. Just watched the replays and will try it out on ladder later. Been struggling TvZ finding a good opener that transitions into mech midgame. This one seems great as you got the expo + tech but still allow to be agressive.
|
I feel like there is a weak spot in this build and its what if the attack doesn't work and the zerg is able to push it off? I didn't watch the replays but from the YouTube videos i saw that none of them really didn't see you go to attack and therefore with out the scouting didn't make zerglings to defend. Zerglings very strong if you can contain the blue flame helions and better positioned banelings would have made it no problem to hold off. In the second video if he saw you push out he could've maybe set some baneling land mines which could've crushed some of the helions and marines and let the zerglings which shouldve been already made had he scouted you attacking clean up the rest. Also i dont like how in the end of the video the guys switched to roaches, i find that good muta control can easilt kill thors and lings to deal with the helions/marines. With more scouting I think the Zerg could have had more of a chance to win.
|
On July 29 2011 01:39 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 04:08 Squigly wrote:
This isnt pure mech, its more bio mech, cuz of you know, all the marines. Still not bad.
User was warned for this post Ha i got warned for this. Must be some power drunk mod XD Ive tried this build out and it actually works wonders. Thumbs up.
Dude you're doing nothing but trolling, and adding in the last line of bs 'still great' 'thumbs up it works'
c'mon dude.
Oddly enough, I was watching a TvZ stream the day before you released this of a 1 base marine tank hellion timing push that was almost like this BO to the DOT, sans the FE.
The level of players you used it against aren't slack at all either, which makes it even better. I'm always a fan of marine hellion timing pushes against any race...but to throw in an FE, and 2 fac for tanks as well? As decaf said.. I think any zerg that goes muta just auto losses once those 2 thors pop out and he can't deal with that push.
|
Hey OP. Really liked the videos and I like your timing push. Although my only question is why the fact opening if you don't plan on doing damage with the first 2 hellions why not just 1 rax FE into double factories?
|
i been doing something similar with 4 hellion into expo but never could get any good presure after the initial hellion harras so will definitely try this.
stil do you always go for the banshee-->battlecruisers late game or was it cuz of the heavy roach play from him?
|
How does this do vs heavy infestor play with neural?
I would imagine you would need to incorporate atleast some ghosts into your build late game.
|
On July 28 2011 02:55 Crytch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 15:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
o yea u forgot, since u leave at 8:30 it hits right before early mutas too eh? 8.30 is way before early mutas. Early mutas will pop up at 10-11, but if you harras with hellions the zerg must defend and wont be able to tech that greedy to mutas. I also play mech in my TvZs and i win most of em. I never tried this build, but i have to say that you need to add ghosts if your pushs fail more or less early, cause zerg will answer with ifnestors or broodlords to your mechcomposition, and ghosts roflstomp both of em. GL/HF with mech against zerg, its pure ♥ to see 200 supply zergarmys go down while the mechplayer just loose 10 bf-hellions, 20 supply....cuuuute. /edit: watched the english youtube video and think you easily won it with your first push if you microd your marines instead of let banelings run into them :D nice guide, will try it.
Haha thanks.
Yeah, I have given up on air vs BLs while keeping Tanks for the infestors... I just go Ghost with Thor/Hellion, maybe a few tanks, but not "needed" in a 200 vs 200 battle.
Though I tend to open 2 rax so that I can use these later for ghosts, but maybe ill use this push and just add more rax later.
|
On July 28 2011 04:08 Squigly wrote:
This isnt pure mech, its more bio mech, cuz of you know, all the marines. Still not bad.
User was warned for this post
The timing push is kinda biomech, but the followup is pretty much pure mech.
|
Premièrement, merci pour du contenu francophone. Fort apprécié!
Now a newbie question: what happens if your pushes end horribly, or he techs up to quick infestors and creates havoc, and winds up going broodlords? There aren't any Starports in this build so far.
Thanks
|
On July 29 2011 05:00 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 01:39 Squigly wrote:On July 28 2011 04:08 Squigly wrote:
This isnt pure mech, its more bio mech, cuz of you know, all the marines. Still not bad.
User was warned for this post Ha i got warned for this. Must be some power drunk mod XD Ive tried this build out and it actually works wonders. Thumbs up. Dude you're doing nothing but trolling, and adding in the last line of bs 'still great' 'thumbs up it works' c'mon dude. Oddly enough, I was watching a TvZ stream the day before you released this of a 1 base marine tank hellion timing push that was almost like this BO to the DOT, sans the FE. The level of players you used it against aren't slack at all either, which makes it even better. I'm always a fan of marine hellion timing pushes against any race...but to throw in an FE, and 2 fac for tanks as well? As decaf said.. I think any zerg that goes muta just auto losses once those 2 thors pop out and he can't deal with that push.
Lol stop being a douchebag for no reason. Ive made two posts. First one saying how his push isnt actually mech, which has now been established as true. Secondly to say that id tried the build and it works quite well. Both informative posts. Whats your post saying, lets see.
First off your a dick talking about me trolling, nice and informative. Secondly you say you like the build and state the fucking obvious of rush to muta loses. So does rush to brood. Cheers mate. We werent aware thors own mutas. Your comment is so fucking valuable, i suggest a medal.
Also you talk a little about how you watched a stream and someone did a similar build. Awesome mate. Thank you. If they did the same build, and you put some effort into saying what went well and what didnt, might actually be helpful. But no. (A FE changes the build rather a lot )
Thirdly, wait, your post is over. Great job. Super post.
Anyways, ive had issues as stated by others with 2 base baneling busts. Do you happen to have any vids of you beating a 2 base bane bust?
|
You should include the factory reactor expand build order too because I don't really know it.
I will change this topic in a more teamliquid way (with a lot of spoilers) as soon as I have the time and the will, otherwise
10 supply
12 barrack
15 orbital command
16 marine
Supply as soon as possible
@100% supply, factory
@80% factory, command center
the follow up is detailed in the video
I go with 5 - 8 helions, ~~ 10 marines and two tanks-two svc auto repair
Mass speedling would own this, no?
Until now, I didn't have problem against mass speedling
It's critical to keep your first helions alive, because you'll need them for the push, and clear the map is the z is active with his lings, but 8 BFH is really strong
I don't know the timing of a 2 base baneling bust, but I guess he needs to have control of the map to come with his baneling, so I guess it will be between his lings and my helions
@Tokyla
about baneling landmines
Going burrow as soon as possible is quite an investment at this stage of the game, plus it's really tempting to use a scan near the ennemy's base to kill tumors, so I don't think that's a reliable option.
As for lings and muta countering BFH + thors, I guess it would be doable if the zerg overmacro the terran hard, which is not the case before and after the push
@zhengsta
map control I guess
Another part of the strength of this build, it's how much it looks standard
As long as the z doesn't scout the 2 factory, it looks like a marine tank timing push, which arranges me
@TuxThePenguin
It's situational
In theory, the t has more option and range than the zerg, so he has many options to deal with neural parasite
Until now, I used sieged tanks + banshee to focus fire the infestors, and helions too if there is no lings (splash damage !§)
Ghost helps a lot, I don't have much experience with them though
I have a replay where I use them but it's not really to take into consideration because I won the game with hunter seeker missile
I'll upload the replay nevertheless
+ Show Spoiler +
@Iberville
It's really rare that this pushes fails, if it does we're on a equal foot on econ, so I'll have to harass and expand while upgrading and grinding to the 200/200
The starport can be added right after the push, to go drop with helions, plus it helps a lot with thors in battle
With reactor, it's definitely being a step ahead on the late game, vikings against broodlords-corruptors with the support of
|
Dude you're doing nothing but trolling, and adding in the last line of bs 'still great' 'thumbs up it works'
c'mon dude.
Oddly enough, I was watching a TvZ stream the day before you released this of a 1 base marine tank hellion timing push that was almost like this BO to the DOT, sans the FE.
The level of players you used it against aren't slack at all either, which makes it even better. I'm always a fan of marine hellion timing pushes against any race...but to throw in an FE, and 2 fac for tanks as well? As decaf said.. I think any zerg that goes muta just auto losses once those 2 thors pop out and he can't deal with that push.
Stop hating? He didn't hate so you shouldn't either.
Also, Pam has a good point about the Hellions. Many times I get greedy, still thinking that at certain points in the game it is worth it to potentially sacrifice some Hellions to kill drones, but you have to remember when not to sacrifice them. For example, right when you're about to push. You're going to push to do damage anyways, so there's little point trying to kill drones before the push, which will just let any speedlings rape ur thor and/or tank lol.
|
what do u do vs mutas? i get muta'd every game with this build. i try to squeeze in a engineering bay and some turrets....but those don't help usually. seems like a reactor on the barracks or something might help...
|
Can you link a replay of you executing the build ?
Because there is a reactor on the barracks and you should be able to put turrets in time, then you have thors
edit for lann:
The third replay (against xaM) shows what I do against roaches
Skip the blue flames, go with 4 tanks, rally helions
you just need more svc to repair
|
Any adjustments you make when Zerg goes for roach? I tried this build a few times now on ladder and everytime the Zerg opened for defensive roach (maybe in response to the hellion). The push never ended up killing the Z. I usually won the first battle vs roaches, but then reinforcement roach/ling kills the push. I still won in the end since the build transitions really well, so its not too bad I guess :p
|
United Kingdom393 Posts
Personally I'm going to try and test this build after a 1 Rax FE, and then compare the timings to see if the push still works =]
It would suit my style more this way although I love the structure and shape of your build, Thanks for your contribution.
|
On July 29 2011 01:39 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 04:08 Squigly wrote:
This isnt pure mech, its more bio mech, cuz of you know, all the marines. Still not bad.
User was warned for this post Ha i got warned for this. Must be some power drunk mod XD Ive tried this build out and it actually works wonders. Thumbs up. User was temp banned for this post.
#1 Why in the world would someone be banned for this?
#2 Love this build, I've been starting to go mech against protoss but haven't had any success with my mech build orders vs. zerg (always ends up being just bio mech). I REALLY like the double upgrade aspect and I feel that's part of what makes this build so strong since thors with + armor are uber hard to kill (as if they weren't already).
I've only seen the youtube video as I'm at work but my the only real flaw I saw in the vid was the lack of harassment. Now I know there was a lot of back and forth in this game so there wasn't much time but I just get the inkling that building a drop ship or two and doing a BF Helion drop would have worked wonders. Thoughts?
P.S. I'm only Diamond but looking to get to masters and def need more refined build orders than my own, like this one so thanks.
|
That seems like an insanely sexy build, will have to give it a go. It really surprised me, how much beating those thors were able to take, due to such a high upgrade advantage.
|
I am soooooooo tired of getting roflstomped by ling/infestor/broodlord when I play marine/tank so I will try this. I dont understand why korean zergs almost always play ling/bling/muta when it is impossible to find a pro replay where ling/infestor/broodlord loose.
I think you said that you always build mostly thors even if the opponent go roach heavy, is that so you dont get destroyed by a muta tech switch?
|
@ElFuego
Well, the recent games (MMA vs Slush) showed a way to open with harass
MMA then transitionned/transferred into bio, but it seems possible to me to go mech while dropping blue flames/expanding
It's an option I haven't developped yet, but definitely something that can change my way to deal with this matchup
I think it's possible to support on 2 base (right after the push- as soon as you're on 4gaz)
3 fact 2 tech lab 1 reactor
1 starport (with tech lab after the medivac if you wish raven-banshee support)
the key point will be to do a fair production between tanks/thors/helion/medivac to always have your gaz low, and expand during the harass
another option would be
3 fact 2 tech lab 1 reactor
2 barrax 2 tech lab
To have production of ghost if you wish to deal with infestors, plus with snipe ability and cloak, it's really useful in each engagement against the z
@Zaixer
I like thors
once they are 3/3, they two shots the roaches, so in great number, roaches army melt against thors
In the other way, the zerg can overwhelm you before the 200/200 stage, that's why you need a handful of sieged tanks to be safe while expanding/increasing your numbers of factories
edit
@Kornholi0
In order to deal with this push, the zerg need to cut drones, so we should have the same economy
To scout this, the zerg needs to see the 2 factories with an overlord, which is deniable with 1 - 2 marines well placed in your main
With same micro from both side, I think the terran will be ahead, except if his helions are trapped by a ton of glings, which is really not common and avoidable
What is the 1.30 minute you're talking about ? it doesn't take that long to travel maps
Infestors aren't out when this push hits, so the zerg will suffer from the push
Plus, if he has roaches, they won't be an immediate menace of infestors nor mutas
|
I think a lot more work can be done on the writeup, seems like a nice build but what if the zerg scouts it and is completely prepared? What are the follow ups? It may "destroy" the infestor opening, but that completely depends on the control of the zerg as a prepared infestoring player generally looks at a mech build and can handle it. Although it does hit at 8:30, this seems like you just won't have enough stuff to deal with the minute 30 of lings + roaches that the zerg will have (well controlled).
|
On July 30 2011 14:14 Kornholi0 wrote:
I think a lot more work can be done on the writeup, seems like a nice build but what if the zerg scouts it and is completely prepared? What are the follow ups? It may "destroy" the infestor opening, but that completely depends on the control of the zerg as a prepared infestoring player generally looks at a mech build and can handle it. Although it does hit at 8:30, this seems like you just won't have enough stuff to deal with the minute 30 of lings + roaches that the zerg will have (well controlled).
The push is spearheaded by helions, which helps diminish ling numbers, and gives the terran the option to retreat if he sees that the Zerg overracted. If the zerg did overreact, the damage is done.
|
Ok I've tried to do this build with what we saw at the mlg, but even with blue flames, It doesn't go together that much
I don't know the timing of the second gaz, I think I took it a little bit late
It puts you in a defensiv position, which is quite different that was the push does
here's the replay, the opponent was one of the worst I met on the teamliquid channel
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-224016.jpg)
|
Thanks for posting this, i'll definitely try it.
|
I've updated the original post in a teamliquid way
If there's any points missing feel free to pm me about it
I add another replay against mass speedlings
|
Pam, I want to thank you for creating this build. This is now my go to TvZ build on the ladder. As a platinum level terran, I am not perfect at executing the build yet, but I am glad there are creative terrans like you creating build orders to help the average player like me.
However, as a personal preference, I am not a fan of transitioning into mech after the opening attack. My reason is simple: I am terrible at macroeing when playing mech because I am terrible at managing my mineral to gas spending when playing this style as terran. Instead, I prefer to go marine tank after the build and getting a starport for medivacs.
My question to you is how would you change the build order during and after the push to accomodate for a marine tank composition? First, I would like to know how many barracks I should create (and what add ons and upgrades I should get first for my marines). Second, I don't know if I should build one engineering bay with an armory, two engineering bays, or two engineering bays with an armory since getting several upgrades at once can be quite expensive. Thirdly, I don't know if I can even get a starport before getting to 3 bases since two factories and upgrades are already gas intensitve enough. Finally, if the zerg player is going mutalisks, should I still produce two thors since I will now have more marines to counter the mutalisks? Thank you for reading this and any advice you can give my would be really helpful.
|
I'm not such a creative player, the only thing that's cool in this build is how it's headed for a macro game
You can refer to the doctor's guide, which is really accurate, and seems to be marine/tank related
I think, in order to be efficient, it's better to go either mech or marine tank, and don't invest on technology which won't help you through the game
If you really want to keep the push as it is, you may switch the rax with a fac with tech lab, start a starport on the reactor and add 4 - 5 rax
don't double armory, one is enough and get only +1 attack for vehicles, start double ebay instead
If you find yourself limited on gaz, create helions instead of tank, use them to scout and stuff, it's always good to have quick units on the map
About my build, I'm going to rewrite it in order to aim for a ghost/mech comp', maybe a video to work on my accent
here's a replay of preview
http://replayfu.com/r/3sTr2j
|
Hey Pam. I checked out the doctor's guide, and there is a build created by SlayerS that opens reactor helion expand, but it ops for a faster starport for an elevator drop for a major attack. The one advantage I can think of is that this elevator drop bypasses the wall of spinecrawlers I see zergs doing nowadays, but I feel the attack is weaker without the tanks. Still, I can't wait to try out that build and transition.
Secondly, I want to thank you for the advice. I never would have thought of swapping so many add-ons. I can tell one of your greatest talents is your ability to manipulate building add-ons in your build orders. I hope you continue to do that in your future build orders.
Finally, I want to comment about rewriting your build for a ghost/mech composition. I feel there are both pros and cons about the build that I can think of. There is also a recent post about the composition, which I will link here.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=256880
As the post explains, ghost/mech is a powerful LATE game composition. I agree with that, and as your replay shows, you are easily able to transition into adding ghosts once you are on 3 bases. However, I think it would be very difficult to add in ghosts directly after the opening push when you are on two bases because of their gas cost. Most of the gas should be devoted to thors and more upgrades while on two bases because gas is so limited. At the same time, ghosts are situational units. If the zerg player doesn't have infestors to EMP or brood lords to snipe, adding ghosts would not be as cost effective as adding more thors. Whatever you do though, I am sure that the polished build will be just as deadly as the current one. Again, thanks for the advice Pam and good luck.
|
holy shit... I just tried this build and I just steamrolled a zerg on S. Plateau map.
It was my first time trying the build and I still rolled my opponent. Siege tanks are so powerful and I have a constant production of reactor marines so it faked my opponent into thinking I was going bio until I pushed out with a ton of siege tanks and blue flame hellions. I didn't even have any thors because he went ling + heavy infestor. *thumbs up to this build*
|
Ok, so I think I'm going to update this after the 1.4 patch, to see what can be removed or not depending on the changes
I'm going to change the video into a more standard one, it's really rare that I go battlecruiser, taking that game was a little bit of a mistake (even if others points were made)
As TheBigO noticed, the ghost/mech play is not viable on two bases (and it wasn't my intention to do so), it's something which depends on the z behavior, but it's rare that they stick to muta lings/full roach at 15" in the game
I think it's possible to orientate this build into a 3 bases play, with the thirth cc coming at 10"
There are some adjustements that I need to make, especially about the transition while pushing, but with the possible modification of blue flames I'm quite enthusiast about how I can change this build into a quick +1 push
|
On August 21 2011 04:18 TheBigO wrote: Hey Pam. I checked out the doctor's guide, and there is a build created by SlayerS that opens reactor helion expand, but it ops for a faster starport for an elevator drop for a major attack. The one advantage I can think of is that this elevator drop bypasses the wall of spinecrawlers I see zergs doing nowadays, but I feel the attack is weaker without the tanks. Still, I can't wait to try out that build and transition. Secondly, I want to thank you for the advice. I never would have thought of swapping so many add-ons. I can tell one of your greatest talents is your ability to manipulate building add-ons in your build orders. I hope you continue to do that in your future build orders. Finally, I want to comment about rewriting your build for a ghost/mech composition. I feel there are both pros and cons about the build that I can think of. There is also a recent post about the composition, which I will link here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=256880 As the post explains, ghost/mech is a powerful LATE game composition. I agree with that, and as your replay shows, you are easily able to transition into adding ghosts once you are on 3 bases. However, I think it would be very difficult to add in ghosts directly after the opening push when you are on two bases because of their gas cost. Most of the gas should be devoted to thors and more upgrades while on two bases because gas is so limited. At the same time, ghosts are situational units. If the zerg player doesn't have infestors to EMP or brood lords to snipe, adding ghosts would not be as cost effective as adding more thors. Whatever you do though, I am sure that the polished build will be just as deadly as the current one. Again, thanks for the advice Pam and good luck.
Not quite true, ghosts are very good against mutalisks obviously and still do decent damage vs zerglings. Also, you use them to nuke around the map. Extremely cost effective, and easier for you to do than for him to defend.
Also, because snipe is instant, having a lot of ghosts is really powerful even if he goes mass roach or mutalisks, since you can take out like 20 mutalisks with 10 ghosts with 150 energy each in the first few seconds of the battle, or like 15 roaches. And like all spell casters, ghosts are very supply efficient.
On August 25 2011 11:45 Pam wrote:
Ok, so I think I'm going to update this after the 1.4 patch, to see what can be removed or not depending on the changes
I'm going to change the video into a more standard one, it's really rare that I go battlecruiser, taking that game was a little bit of a mistake (even if others points were made)
As TheBigO noticed, the ghost/mech play is not viable on two bases (and it wasn't my intention to do so), it's something which depends on the z behavior, but it's rare that they stick to muta lings/full roach at 15" in the game
I think it's possible to orientate this build into a 3 bases play, with the thirth cc coming at 10"
There are some adjustements that I need to make, especially about the transition while pushing, but with the possible modification of blue flames I'm quite enthusiast about how I can change this build into a quick +1 push
BFH still kills lings in 2 hits, so really there need not be any changes regarding the patch. Also, ghost mech does work on 2 bases, if you get ghosts immediately after your usual hellion/marine poke so you can stack up on energy, and then push with a couple thors (or without, depending on zerg's infestor/muta timings). Your ghosts and/or thors deal easily with infestors and mutas, and you have a hellions to deal with lings. The only problem is mass roach, which isn't hard to deal against you just need to make some marauders and cut a few ghosts, and push with scvs to repair thors. The idea is that you snipe a 5-10 roaches to death instantly, so that the strength of the thors being repaired is much more significant. At least, it's been working for me so far. May be it won't work at the GM level, or maybe it won't work at the pro level, but it works at mid-high masters, which I think is good enough for most people. I'm thinking on posting a guide sometime if i keep finding success with it.
|
On August 25 2011 11:45 Pam wrote:
Ok, so I think I'm going to update this after the 1.4 patch, to see what can be removed or not depending on the changes
I'm going to change the video into a more standard one, it's really rare that I go battlecruiser, taking that game was a little bit of a mistake (even if others points were made)
As TheBigO noticed, the ghost/mech play is not viable on two bases (and it wasn't my intention to do so), it's something which depends on the z behavior, but it's rare that they stick to muta lings/full roach at 15" in the game
I think it's possible to orientate this build into a 3 bases play, with the thirth cc coming at 10"
There are some adjustements that I need to make, especially about the transition while pushing, but with the possible modification of blue flames I'm quite enthusiast about how I can change this build into a quick +1 push
I don't think the build should be affected too much by the potential BFH nerf after 1.4 patch. Lings will still get 2 shot (and still 3 shot without blue flame, even if +1 mech attack is researched). The major change will be drones - will be 3 shot instead of 2 (untill +1 mech attack, then blue flame will 2 shot drones).
So I don't understand why +1 will be important for the push.
Edit: Also, thank you for posting and updating this build. I use something similar but going to try your version. I also love 3 rax ghost transition after 3 base. It helps so much vs all the weakness of mech late game.
|
Hello, I just want to mention that I've been using this build and it kicks some serious ass. So far I faced 4 players, 3 of them died to the timming atack @ 9 minuts while the other guy survived without suffering any significant loses, but I still won the game. It's a very strong build, all you have to do is to decide if you need to make more thors (mutas) or more tanks (infestors roaches).
Btw, NA master terran (I was diamond before the build ;D).
Edit: I would not get too concerned about being in 2 bases for a little while (say start 3rd CC @ 12ish) because the push usually does a lot of damage or at least keeps the zerg wondering. Also, is very rare for the zerg to engage you while you are on 2 bases, and mutas are easily nulified by thors + couple of turrets, and by the time you float your third you have the army to defend it. I also think that the blue flame is still viable army wise, it'll just be an upgrade that people will not get when solely using them for harass.
|
This is a nice build, I've thrown it into my mix for my zerg builds and have a good win rate. Thx!
|
Saw a guide similar to this and tried but failed. Do you scan his main before you move out for a spire? I manage to punch thru zerg's 3-4 spines at front then the mutas came and took out my push.
|
On August 30 2011 04:18 SaberNodoka wrote:
Saw a guide similar to this and tried but failed. Do you scan his main before you move out for a spire? I manage to punch thru zerg's 3-4 spines at front then the mutas came and took out my push.
You probably didn't hit the proper timing. For this push to be effective you need to hit @ around 9 minuts mark, no later than this. And you should also have about 9-10 marines and keep them alive, so if he throws mutas out you can hold em (he will never have gas to produce more than 7 mutas at once at this point in the game, and if he is producing that many mutas, he won't have ground units and you can just to roast his drones).
Edit: also, you cannot hope to always win or do major damage with this, you need to know how to transition from this properly. this is a macro mech build with a strong timing with relatively fast expansion, if it would win you all games it would be broken =).
Edit 2: If I don't see many units in the front while poking with hellion I assume he is teching and waiting to get his third right when the infestor or spire tech comes out, you can throw out a scan but I think is unecessary in light of the points I discussed before.
|
On August 30 2011 04:32 Autunno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 04:18 SaberNodoka wrote:
Saw a guide similar to this and tried but failed. Do you scan his main before you move out for a spire? I manage to punch thru zerg's 3-4 spines at front then the mutas came and took out my push. You probably didn't hit the proper timing. For this push to be effective you need to hit @ around 9 minuts mark, no later than this. And you should also have about 9-10 marines and keep them alive, so if he throws mutas out you can hold em (he will never have gas to produce more than 7 mutas at once at this point in the game, and if he is producing that many mutas, he won't have ground units and you can just to roast his drones). Edit: also, you cannot hope to always win or do major damage with this, you need to know how to transition from this properly. this is a macro mech build with a strong timing with relatively fast expansion, if it would win you all games it would be broken =). Edit 2: If I don't see many units in the front while poking with hellion I assume he is teching and waiting to get his third right when the infestor or spire tech comes out, you can throw out a scan but I think is unecessary in light of the points I discussed before.
Thanks, it is probably as what you said, I played too rigidly to the build. Will try again!
|
If you're following the build, you should have the two tanks around 8.00, move out at 8.20 or 8.30, it's almost impossible to see muta once you're in his base
If there's no unit, you can a-move the spine, they don't do that much damage against helion, and it can be preferable to kill them fast then siege really close to his hatchery (here you need a scan when you enter his creep)
I've tried 2 - 3 variation to the push, the thing which remains the most important is the timing you hit the zerg
wait for a third tank, supposedly it's better if there's roach, but the delayed timing => more roach to kill
Add a third factory on the reactor => delayed timing, less money, less marine (which are great), less gas for the following
go armory for fast +1 => kills the timing é_è, not enough gas at this state of the game
Going ghost mech on 2 base => I don't think it's the good choice even if the z goes heavy on the infestor, good tank sieging + focus fire is enough for 5 - 6 inf'
|
Pam! Thanks man.
I've used this mech opening for a month now. I've won so many more tvz's than I used to. The most absolutely important thing about this push is the timing. If the zerg gets too greedy he dies, if he makes too many units you've done your job.
Also the hellions stop him from getting any vision outside of the front of his base on most maps.
|
Great great strategy!
I love your play as it keeps up pressure while gaining (or keeping up) an economic lead (without a sneaky third or something like that).
as a big fan of Thor/hellion play I just would like to add some suggestions.
I believe that Thor/Hellion/SCV+Repair is strong enough to beat every Zerg combination. Against Broodlords I sugget to read Griffith' post about Hellions + SCVs following the Thors. Same trick is used against mass Zerglings.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205159http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205159[/url
It works works like a charm
While if you face masses of roaches its key to pull the Hellions in front of the Thors and manually placing the SCVs behind the Thors
ON the other side i believe that Banshee or Ghosts could be integrated in this build once the 3rd is up and running.
Banshees when facing too many roaches, or even against Infestors as they don't die to quickly to fungal.
Ghosts on the other side are great against BL and Infestors. Hold Fire + Hold Position and Shift clicking Snipe kills BL in no time. 3-4 (maybe cloaked) Ghosts with full energy also take out a complete mineral line + 2 Queens in a couple of seconds.
Another trick I often use is something like a "Macro CC" or "Macro OC". Having an additional CC in the mid game gives access to unlimited SCVs and are another great mineral sink. They get killed quickly in these battles so we need a lot of them. This also allows to get a PF at the third without ever being short on MULES or Scans.
Please keep up this great work. Cant wait to learn about ur findings about the 1.4 Patch. I hope its not ru
|
On August 30 2011 23:07 lukasdesign wrote:
ON the other side i believe that Banshee or Ghosts could be integrated in this build once the 3rd is up and running.
He does get ghosts or banshes after 3 bases in some games, I think he didn't specify the transitions in the guide as it's army dependent (did he go infestors? did he go mutas?).
There's even a game where he went ravens with HSM on late game, which is nice to be tinkering with since it'll have a buff in the next patch.
|
This is a great build for starting players, mainly due to it's simplicity. As a platinum player I have tried this out in 10 TvZ ladder games and won 8 of them. Roaches counter this well but almost any other build gets demolished by this with good micro. Try to deny scouting so your opponent can't counter your 2 factories.
|
Roaches can be stopped if u bring Banshees or more SCVs or both :-)
Split the SCVs and make each little group following one Thor with autorepair on it does wonders.
I also prefer to prioritize Armor over Attack upgrades.
|
165/200 supply timing push with 2/2 upgrades is deadly, check out my replay. scan for mutas build roach. scan for infestor build tank gg.![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-229584.jpg)
|
On September 02 2011 18:30 TheSurgeonTV wrote:165/200 supply timing push with 2/2 upgrades is deadly, check out my replay. scan for mutas build roach. scan for infestor build tank gg.
Do you get any thor at all if the oponent goes for infestor roach? I do a similar thing to what you did there but my push is a little delayed on the upgrades because I get a faster third (at the time your 2/2 finishes my 2/2 is halfway done).
|
no thor if i don't scout a spire...since i scanned and saw a spire it was perfect. the amount of tanks in this build is so nice! watchout for magic box mutas tho during the push, but shouldn't be to hard to deal with
|
Thank you! This build has restored joy in TvZ. no more 90% loss rate vZ that I had before. >.<
|
Being zerg, I prefer terrans to go mech.
they give me a much higher chance to win. Slower to push, slower to retreat, and slower to return home when backstabbed.
The marine is by far the best unit in the game, why ignore it?
I think mech could suit a player that is very slow, compared to using bio. But it is a dead end once you reach certain level.
|
[B]
I think mech could suit a player that is very slow, compared to using bio. But it is a dead end once you reach certain level.
A player that makes a statement like yours can't be taken serious. Mech is viable option in EVERY match up. Maybe not always the most efficient one but viable. The same is true for BIO or BIOMECH or AIR...
In Starcraft there is no "All-In-One" solution, but there is also no such a thing as "Dead-End".
Btw. I would love to see YOU going against Goody playing mech and then hear you talking about dead end
|
Nice Guide, been wanting to try out mech for some time. need to learn more 2base plays, stuck on mostly 1 atm >.<, yeh im bad, but thanks again for the guide
|
So, I've tried a few things, but there is no real way to change the opening to adapt it to the patch
I'm usually going 14 extractor though, to get the expand a bit sooner, and going with 2 - 3 marines + 1 svc is really helping 50% of the time
The change of the blue flame helions doesn't affect them the way you use them in mech play, and going for fast +1/+2 delay way much the timing push
I think that the nerf of the blue flame is good for mech, because less terran player will use it so less zerg would be prepared for it :')
Otherwise, as a zerg player, the way to scout this build is the swap of the barrack on the reactor right after the helions, that's something that isn't done by standard play
I don't have interesting replays yet, I don't do much tvz these days (I'm playing random on ladder), but as I'm progressing the the ladder, I'll perhaps have some good games against known players in the near future
From what I've seen, they construct a tech lab on the barracks while the helions are produced, to get stim asap
They build a barrack on the reactor after the helion production, they don't swap it
|
On September 23 2011 01:02 Pam wrote:
as a zerg player, the way to scout this build is the swap of the barrack on the reactor right after the helions, that's something that isn't done by standard play
I don't know about that, some terrans are doing reactor hellion with just 2 or 4 hellions then doing reactor switch again and transitioning into tank/marine
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
