Hi Starcraft Fans! I am a masters Terran who struggled a lot with TvP the past month and began to use Warden's 1-1-1 Deathball which produced moderate success but lacked the ability to simply macro efficiently and then move out and attack without great concern for army positioning. I also believe there are some strong counter's to Warden's build as any build may have but I have had much more success using a modified build order from Thorzain vs MC TSL Game 5 and Warden's 1-1-1 very safe opening and scouting mechanics. So I give a lot of credit to those two.
EDIT - July 16th: Lots of revision to this guide. BO altered slightly and better replay and commentary added.
This build revolves around strong scouting in the early game and a defensive position. As mid game approches harass capabilities are available as well as oppurtunities to alter your composition as you gain more intel on your opponent's tech path.
You will open with the OC standard followed by a factory and a CC. Using 1 tank and a bunker of marines you can hold all early pokes and upon scouting, 4-gates as well. By this time you will also be getting a Starport which will either produce a raven or a viking based in further intel.
As your SP is in production an armory is thrown down to get a thor and the second starport unit is often a banshee. This allows you to take your natural as the thor gives you great stability on defense and the banshee allows you to harass their base often pulling their army back.
Once the natural is secured 3 bunkers are used for the marines you have made but now marine production stops. This is an extremely defensive position and is difficult for toss to break and in fact they will often decide to take a 3rd. Which is fine because you will be pushing around 130 food and their 3rd won't kick in yet. If they go extremely fast 3rd you can just pull scvs to repair thors and stomp them.
After you open 1-1-1 and have 10-12 marines, 1 tank, 1 thor, 1 banshee, 1 raven you have to decide what tech they are going for.
If you see 6 gate add a 2nd factory and make BF hellions to deal with the zealots. stomp their timing attack and move out while taking a third and add rax with extra minerals if you have them.
If you see 4-5 gate with robo for immortals - make a 2nd starport with techlab and add ravens and banshees. push timing is around 3 ghosts and 3 pdd. take a third after you trade army.
If you see 3-4 gates and 2 robos pumping colossi add a 2nd starport and produce banshees and ravens. phoenix will not counter because of thors. ravens will stop stalkers from tearing up banshees.
If you see fast HT, likely after a DT expand. Add 2nd rax make ghosts with upgrades and "EMP cleanse" before you move out.
Either your dumping gas for ghosts to negate templar or banshees/ravens to crush colossi and immortals.
EMP Cleanse - use ghosts to emp thors and banshees to negate feedback.
Why this build works: its versatile, the unit comp is hard to scout with thors and ravens out. SP with tech lab can make either ravens banshees or vikings so all toss units can be countered. the emp cleanse negates HT feedback. ghost emp negates HT with energy for storms. raven pdd negates stalkers and phoenix. thors and strong and can tank a lot of damage.
Also consider this. 3-4 PDDs shuts down a significant portion of the Toss DPS for the first 1/4 of the battle. Once PDD energy is done the supply lead will have already shifted heavily in Terran's favour. The polt prime build which uses an early 1 base push of marine tanks raven and banshee was effective until toss realized feedback could wreck this with many zealots. We are utilizing the same composition but removing feedback from the equation.
15 orbital 16 depot 18 factory 20 TL on rax (after 3 marines) 21 depot, bunker and 2nd refinery 27 tank after swapping factory onto TL 29 depot 31 starport on to TL factory lifts off and makes hellion 37 CC 39 raven 40 depot 41 armory
Use your hellion to determine if its safe to move out to expand. Make a banshee for map control, scouting and lastly harass. Make a thor to strengthen your army.
Use scouting to determine whether toss is going for mass gateway with ups, templar, or robo tech.
mass gateways - add BF hellion to increase supply faster, put depots in front of bunkers to stop zealots be ready to pull scv to repair
robo tech - add a 2nd starport and make banshees and ravens maybe a viking or two if gas is tight. add 1-2 ghosts wihtout upgrades just for normal emp usage
templar tech - add a 2nd rax for ghosts - extra banshees and ravens are secondary. use ghosts to emp cleanse your thors and banshees.
This is a safe opening to all cheese and allows you to have the full tech tree as you take your natural. This allows extreme versatility in unit comp but gives up mobility for some time. However, because of the strong defensive position toss must allow you to get whatever unit comp you want because you are unlikely to be broken. You can move out around 130 food before they have a saturated 3rd base.
You must emp cleanse before moving out if any HT are out because feedback is only 50 energy and can destroy the thors who have build up energy while defending.
PDD is 1st priority as 2 ravens can get sniped easily by HT or stalkers. this will allow the banshees to live much longer.
EMP is 2nd priority as ghosts do not have the highest threat and can wait 1-2 seconds before emp the HT in the back.
This is the one to watch, Opponent goes 2 gate robo expand into 4 gate robo with templar tech. EMP cleansing negates his plans to stomp my army and instead leaves him with nothing as thors and banshees rip through the rest of his base.
Toss goes 2 gate robo and after scouting CBing immortals added another starport with TL to make more ravens and banshees. pushed with 130 supply and got further and further ahead taking a third and adding more ghosts to "EMP Cleanse" the thors and banshees before final push.
Please leave feedback in this thread. Add me on bnet if you want to try out your toss builds against me. Also please check out my stream and youtube channel where I will show more of this build and others for tvt and tvz.
Bnet ID
MarineKush.763 - ladder locked into diamond its a new account
EMPing the thors and banshees is holy shit smart. Gratz on the strategy.
I would like to add that you should incorporate nukes into the build as well.. if you watched the series between MC and Puma (I think?? I've watched so many games I don't remember) but Puma used great defensive and offensive nukes to force the protoss into horrible positions.
Thanks for your contribution. I have just a few criticisms though. I watched almost all of the replays and there seems to be a recurring theme of floating quite a bit of minerals on your part. Also, the build seems pretty flimsy in the beginning. Your 4 gate replay wasnt the greatest example because the guy didn't commit to the attack. Also, in the 3 gate robo push replay if your banshee didn't kill so many probes, you would have been way behind. I don't think him leaving 2 stalkers in his mineral line would have hurt his push that much. On the ladder you could probably get away with the banshee-probe kills, but not in a tourney. On the other hand, you didn't even try to repair the bunkers, so that most certainly would have made your defense even stronger than it was.
On July 16 2011 11:40 micjmac wrote: Thanks for your contribution. I have just a few criticisms though. I watched almost all of the replays and there seems to be a recurring theme of floating quite a bit of minerals on your part. Also, the build seems pretty flimsy in the beginning. Your 4 gate replay wasnt the greatest example because the guy didn't commit to the attack. Also, in the 3 gate robo push replay if your banshee didn't kill so many probes, you would have been way behind. I don't think him leaving 2 stalkers in his mineral line would have hurt his push that much. On the ladder you could probably get away with the banshee-probe kills, but not in a tourney. On the other hand, you didn't even try to repair the bunkers, so that most certainly would have made your defense even stronger than it was.
Happy makes banshees every game and has somthing like a 70% winrate vs known protoss players despite the fact that he knows they are coming. So, I think your post is irrelevant. Floating minerals is obviously a concern, but stronger mechanics can remedy that and it doesn't really have any bearing on the actual build and strategy.
This type of unit composition works perfectly against any Protoss deathball but however has really slow to no mobility besides the Hellions so like all mech plays, if the protoss uses warp prism or drop play, it may be a bit annoying. I've used this build to huge success on my laddering in Diamond and low masters, HOWEVER, I realised theres one type of build that absolutely destroys this. Any 1 gate expo is hard to punish unless you all in and do significant damage, because if Protoss 1 gate expos and gets those immortals out successfully, he can 6 gate push with immortals and your own "deathball" is reliant on a few bunkers and only 2-3 or so Thors because of the timing of the push. You MAY be able to squeeze that one ghost out but this type of push is DEADLY to this build.
Would your Thor be out before the Protoss is able to get phoenixes to harass? Other than the early game weaknesses you've mentioned above, this build sounds pretty impossible to counter...will definitely need to try it out sometime and watch your replays. Thanks for the post!
*edit* Didn't realize you'd have that many marines out. Redacted! ^^
This is brilliant!!!! Thors are so good late game vs toss and with vikings/banshees to keep them for being able to kite this comp/build is a much more solid option and much more mobile than wardens build!
What I like about this is that you use everything that is awesome yet underused against Toss in a single build (PDD, EMPS, Thor with armor, hellions to deal with zealot/sentry/ht, etc).
I am working on a build that use a similar opening but has completely different follow up. I prefer to use tanks instead of thors... would you say thors are used in part to counter possible phoenix play ?
15 orbital *16 depot* 18 fact 21 TL on rax (after 3 marines) 22 depot, bunker and 2nd refinary 23 fact goes on TL – make one tank 27 CC 29 starport on to TL factory lifts off and makes hellion 33 raven and armory *and depot* (in the 1st youtube video you didn't make the raven armory and depot until 35 supply but this might be an isolated case) 37 TL on fact 38 thor and banshee (in that same video you made the 2 bunkers before the thor and banshee thor was at 40 supply and banshee at 42)
this is quite a complicated but very well timed out build!!!
If you have high minerals then add marines. it wont affect the build whatsoever because they require zero gas. its not easy to add factories if your macro slips because gas is rarely piling up.
the 4 gate is not a great replay but 2 bunkers with a tank and a thor on the way will be enough.
3 gate robo is a good example of poor scrambling. that defense could have been better. and another replay is in order.
1gate expo can normally be scouted. if so make a factory and two more rax, then a armory and push with thor with 12 scv or make your CC before fact. really not that hard to alter the 1-1-1 and if you see 1 gate expo much easier to build CC in the natural and make 4 bunkers if you scout the 6gate.
With MC claiming "penix imba" it is good to have a build which has thors in it. turrets are not good enough because they just do shield damage on single targets. thor is much scarier for stargate openings.
The build order is not perfect because this build requires harass and a lot of building swapping which causes macro to always be different. I think the rough order is there.
I think of the general BO using pairs
marines and a tank CC and a bunker raven and armory banshee and thor expo and 3 bunkers 2nd fact and GA upgrades and harass
On July 16 2011 11:40 micjmac wrote: Thanks for your contribution. I have just a few criticisms though. I watched almost all of the replays and there seems to be a recurring theme of floating quite a bit of minerals on your part. Also, the build seems pretty flimsy in the beginning. Your 4 gate replay wasnt the greatest example because the guy didn't commit to the attack. Also, in the 3 gate robo push replay if your banshee didn't kill so many probes, you would have been way behind. I don't think him leaving 2 stalkers in his mineral line would have hurt his push that much. On the ladder you could probably get away with the banshee-probe kills, but not in a tourney. On the other hand, you didn't even try to repair the bunkers, so that most certainly would have made your defense even stronger than it was.
Happy makes banshees every game and has somthing like a 70% winrate vs known protoss players despite the fact that he knows they are coming. So, I think your post is irrelevant. Floating minerals is obviously a concern, but stronger mechanics can remedy that and it doesn't really have any bearing on the actual build and strategy.
If someone opens banshee that high % and you dont just blindly go phoenix, it seems pretty stupid =.=
Puts the banshee player SO far behind.
Anyway - composition looks like it has merit, but Im not a fan of the opening, its just not effecient at all. Id prefer to transition into it off something else, not sure what atm but will think about it.
It also looks to me like you should never be able to hold dedicated void ray allins (for an example, you can look at nada vs inca from last GSL, on xelnaga, where nada tries to use thorzains build - its quite close, but Im not sure if its holdable all the same).
I agree that a dedicated VR allin is going to be tough and must be scouted asap.
the hellion can scout the front at the very least and either:
A. see the unit comp most likely to be accompanying a void ray. B. get in the base and see a starport or 3 gates with 2 gas pumping early (from scv) and no expo. I don't think too many protoss moving out with a 3 gate sentry expand.
On close air pos. (metal and shattered) or just anytime you feel uneasy about VR just add in an ebay earlier and cut a few scv or get a viking first. If they are all-in with VR then you can happily cut scv as you have a 2nd CC coming. IN FACT. you can always delay the raven for a viking and just completely wall off and deal with a DT that way.
When ever i don't scout an expo at 6min and two gas up at 3:45 i assume VR or DT and the chrono can often determine which. This is a defensive build in the first 10 mins and all focus should be on scouting and ready to pull scv for repair.
Lets face it the VR allin is hard to hold without a bunker, a viking, and stim. thats why it's a powerful cheese.
On July 16 2011 11:40 micjmac wrote: Thanks for your contribution. I have just a few criticisms though. I watched almost all of the replays and there seems to be a recurring theme of floating quite a bit of minerals on your part. Also, the build seems pretty flimsy in the beginning. Your 4 gate replay wasnt the greatest example because the guy didn't commit to the attack. Also, in the 3 gate robo push replay if your banshee didn't kill so many probes, you would have been way behind. I don't think him leaving 2 stalkers in his mineral line would have hurt his push that much. On the ladder you could probably get away with the banshee-probe kills, but not in a tourney. On the other hand, you didn't even try to repair the bunkers, so that most certainly would have made your defense even stronger than it was.
Happy makes banshees every game and has somthing like a 70% winrate vs known protoss players despite the fact that he knows they are coming. So, I think your post is irrelevant. Floating minerals is obviously a concern, but stronger mechanics can remedy that and it doesn't really have any bearing on the actual build and strategy.
Happy does not open banshee every game..He scouts with hellion, and if he scouts stargate, he will not make banshees. Phoenix hard counter banshees. Also, Happy seems to get behind if the protoss goes for 1gate fe, with fast robo for a couple of observers.
I opened banshees once against toss and scouted a stargate with the banshee. I still had time to make a viking and had a tank some marines and was able to hold while getting a bunch of probe kills but that was gold league so...If this build catches on it needs a name!!!
Watching the replay it looked like most of the time he pulled SCVs they were A.) unnecessary and B.) had no impact on the outcome of the battle. I would say just never pull the SCVs and even if you lose you're still in good shape to keep going.
I'm not counting the 6-8 he takes with the initial attack of course, and I don't feel those would hurt econ too badly.
I think the map will determine whether you go for a 2 base timing of take a faster third. It depends how easy it is to defend a third with this composition. If you do go for a non all-in then power up more factories and some rax as well to add marauders and more ghosts.
build seems to have some potential...my only question/concern is if the protoss player is going for mass stalker with immortals sprinkled in? I have not done many thor based builds since the patch, but wouldn't that pose a problem especially since the build seems to revolve around heavy use of bf helions? 1200 master terran
On July 16 2011 12:21 benthekid wrote: This is brilliant!!!! Thors are so good late game vs toss and with vikings/banshees to keep them for being able to kite this comp/build is a much more solid option and much more mobile than wardens build!
Rae21, I have lost to immortal stalker twice now and it wasnt really close. I am thinking of what would be a good deviation and it is a lil tough to scout because you might start making vikings seeing robo tech. Will think about it.
Big revelation. I opened normally getting 2 bases up and I saw him going for immortal gateway instead of going for hellions I added another starport with tech lab and made banshees and ravens based on gas supply. still making thors as well. pushed out with a REAL DEATHBALL of
4 ravens, 2 ghost 12 marines 1 tank 1 viking 4 banshee 5 thor and 6 hellion. 130 supply and easily took down his immortal gateway archon mix. and took a third behind then ended the game 6-7 mins later after a full "emp cleanse" of the thors and banshees since i knew HT were out.
NOTE: this was vs masters toss but his macro was a little weak. however, was never allin and only used about 6 scvs to repair on 1st push.
Hah, didn't know you were using that game as commentary. Embarrassing watching myself play. This is kind of long-winded and it's mostly just me explaining why I lost, so I put it in a spoiler, but here are some thoughts on the second commentary from my perspective:
First: in the video you see the robo with a scan, assume its for colossi, and make a ton of vikings. When I scout a bunker at the ramp I (and many other toss) assume you're going banshee and make a robo right away. Before you commit to vikings I think you should poke the front with a hellion, or scan again, just to confirm there actually are colossi.
Second: I obviously dealt with the harass very poorly, even though I saw it coming (saw the starport, saw the banshee, was already preparing for it beforehand since I saw the bunker) but for whatever reason I added the 3 defensive stalkers and obs to my main stalker control group and pulled them away right before the banshee arrived (watch the replay from my vision, the timing of it is actually really funny). Blunder on my part that set me behind.
Third: Honestly, I would have reacted a lot differently if I had just scouted. I saw three full bunkers at the front and assumed a typical bio-ball mix with some tanks thrown in. I didn't even know you had thors until you actually left your natural... Lazy lazy lazy. It's been a very long time since I've even seen thors in PvT (thus, me forgetting that you could Feedback them again) but the proper response would be double robo immortals with a lot less gateways. My army was meant to kill MMM, so when you showed up with the exact opposite of that I was a bit flustered. You only had a single EMP when you engaged, so even without Feedback, I think mass Immortals + Storms + Chargelots would have won that battle. All that was left when you were done was the Thors, which immortals kill very easily. Also, I chose a really shitty angle to engage at, whole army was balled up. Would have lost a lot quicker if you had saved your EMPs.
Finally, I just get supply blocked a lot... poor mechanics that I'm working on after not playing seriously for a while. Not to discredit you, but I do kind of feel like I lost that game on my own.
I like the strategy. Won't be a walkover if they have a proper unit composition (Immortal/Stalker/Templar) but it feels like a viable alternative to MMMG.
Question though, how would you deal with more mobile play? None of your units besides the hellions are fast enough to come back to base if the toss did, say, warp prism harass. If someone knows you're using this strategy and just abuses the slowness of it, I think it would be tough to respond without the small groups of units and fast production that MMM has.
Every build can be hard countered and maybe mobility is the key.
If I saw a warpprism in my base I would pull 2 thors and banshees and clean it up. then make a viking and look for the WP.
If I scouted mass blink stalker I would leave a thor and raven in base to stop observers. If the toss army completely blink stalker pull all scv and go for base trade and then pdd when the engagement eventually happens will crush the stalkers. Maybe that's too ideal but I don't think the current meta game allows for mass blink stalker and the push comes off two base so there's not much room to harass. If mass stalkers with blink does become more common then MMM regains more value.
Something tells me "death balls" are on there way out of competitive play. You can already see many Protoss pro's moving away from the ball style.
Super balls are something easy to manage during primitive play, but now that people are becoming better at multitasking and using any given unit's to it's full potential, death balls are soon to be a relic of the passed.
Is there any way to put on early pressure? You state this is a very defensive build... but can you do anything with your initial marines? Also do you use banshees as your primary harassing unit, or do you keep them back for defense DPS and when you push out for DPS?
How do you play out longer games (such as 4 bases each)? Do you keep the general composition, or do you tend to favor more ghosts, or more thors, or more hellions? (I understand that it really depends on what composition they are going for, but is there any a point where you decide you need to completely transition out of thors and into tanks or out of ghosts and into marauders or something like that?)
Also, how do you tend to see protoss respond to it? I know I play a very specific mech build of hellions thors and marauders against zerg and i can list pretty much all the most common reactions I see. What do you tend to see come out from protoss, and what gives you the most trouble and what makes you smile when you see them go into a certain build?
Sorry I am asking so many questions, I want to try this out soon and I am just curious about some of the nuances of the build.
Ok so I was playing wardens build before but I kept loosing a lot of games due to bad macro and some mismicro in engagements. I started playing this build in YABOT until I got 100% and then hit the ladder. 7 wins 0 losses so far. The emp on thors is ingenious. Tripple scouting with scv/hellion/banshee just feels so good.
No problems with immortal stalker though, 2 people tried to do it but EMP just shut it down. Maybe it's not as good in higher level play as Jinro mentioned, but for my level it's just a roflstomp.
And in like 5 games they tried to DT rush me with the raven just popping when the DT's appear.
Komsa, I see what your saying but I think deathball is just another way of saying my army if controlled properly and macro'd up fast enough will be very tough to stop as it moves out and starts taking out opposing forces and expansions. A non-deathball can be considered small troops doing small amounts of damage until the macro advantage is too much to overcome, in which case you now have a death ball 160-200 supply of marauders, 15 vikings, medis and ghosts which is a deathball now because it can't be stopped due such a great supply lead.
Not sure if you are Terran Komsa but as many have experience we drop here and there and snipe and pick off only to be 1A'd and crushed. Drops rely on luck and you cannot deny that. You cannot see every Observer and if you lose 2 medivacs with MM inside you are done. So while maybe pros are willing to go down in style not every casual gamer is.
boring maybe, but effective in many cases and this build isnt necessarily for the highest levels. just like the 3 rax 50 food push does not work at diamond and up but is useful for newbies learning to macro and still want a chance to win. Even gold toss know if they can sit back and make 6-8 colossi they can a-move win. Is that boring for white-ra and kiwikaki? of course. and for you as well im sure. This does not remove the merit of the build. Definitely not trying to change the pro-level meta game here but more so open up new unit comps that can expose the standard play of toss.
How do you play out longer games (such as 4 bases each)? Do you keep the general composition, or do you tend to favor more ghosts, or more thors, or more hellions? (I understand that it really depends on what composition they are going for, but is there any a point where you decide you need to completely transition out of thors and into tanks or out of ghosts and into marauders or something like that?) .
I'd say for a longer game thor/hellion/ghost/banshee is the best deathball you can get.
I tried all popular compositions in Unit tester with different army sizes and upgrades. Thor/Hellion/Banshee/Ghost always comes out on top.
@Spam - early pressure is not viable because you are teching and expanding. The 3 pillars - Tech, Econ and Aggression, only two can ever be done efficiently.
If you decide to go for two starports then by all means you use your banshees to pick off the stalkers at the towers and to pick off tech and pylons. don't be greedy. you need them for dps. Once blink is out use great caution.
A longer game means you were unable to push out with 130-150 food and win the game and will be difficult to rebuild the thor and raven army. If you sense a macro game brewing or you feel uneasy about moving out, send me a replay because I have yet to experience this. Remember this build is not auto-win, nor should any build be (nerf inc). But if you scout and macro - two keys to all RTS games then you should have an >50% win ratio which is all you can ask for.
Toss will either add immortals/colossi likely from 2 robos or go for big HT play. Both are shut down by scouting this and reacting with either more ghosts or more air. This build is two new to expand much more on this point.
Just wanted to point out you didn't follow your build order in your latest replay. How you ask? well you didn't get the armor ups. You could've easily won with the first push as all he could attack you with was zealots. Also you were targeting the nexus while his zealots hacked away at your thors for a while during that first fight. 2nd fight wasn't even close. Toss did have bad macro and did play a rare turtling style unlike protoss players I've seen. But I really love this build and when I get it memorized I will try this every game TvP.
I think the build order is great against zerg as well. Just skip the armory raven step and go straight into blue flame and thors. the bunker keeps you safe against rushes while the 27 CC is more econ heavy that traditional 1-1-1. I just love how if you do the build right you don't float any resources until you're waiting for the armory to finish.
I also love that you can execute this build with less than 100 apm.
this build would be even better if they didn't nerf thor back to energy. Feedback is just one of the reasons it seems blizzard just want's terran to use bio in TvP.
Also I'd just like to add that as MarineKush shows in his VOD it's important to keep the scouting scv alive to check for an early expo. If the protoss goes for a 1gate expand or generally exapnds before 5 minutes you can go for a thor all in. Salavge bunker, add armory and a second rax. As the armory is building make a tank. Stop scv production. Once the Thor is finished attack and add around 12 scvs on auto repair. You will be pushing with about 12 marines, 12 scvs, 2 tanks and a thor. It's incredibly hard to stop even if he has gone 3 gate.
If you dont want to all in you can focus on getting the expo up asap and rush to the banshees so you equalize the economy a bit. Cloak I would say is a good idea here. Robo is usually delayed and stalker count is usually low.
On July 17 2011 14:21 benthekid wrote: Just wanted to point out you didn't follow your build order in your latest replay. How you ask? well you didn't get the armor ups. You could've easily won with the first push as all he could attack you with was zealots. Also you were targeting the nexus while his zealots hacked away at your thors for a while during that first fight. 2nd fight wasn't even close. Toss did have bad macro and did play a rare turtling style unlike protoss players I've seen. But I really love this build and when I get it memorized I will try this every game TvP.
I think the build order is great against zerg as well. Just skip the armory raven step and go straight into blue flame and thors. the bunker keeps you safe against rushes while the 27 CC is more econ heavy that traditional 1-1-1. I just love how if you do the build right you don't float any resources until you're waiting for the armory to finish.
I also love that you can execute this build with less than 100 apm.
this build would be even better if they didn't nerf thor back to energy. Feedback is just one of the reasons it seems blizzard just want's terran to use bio in TvP.
Such a preposterous statement to make. Did you even think about it before you typed it?
Let's go over that again. "Blizzard wants terran players to use bio in the TvP matchup. Pray tell, how you know that the Sc2 developers manipulate players into using particular styles in MU's - and for what reasons? Because of one ability? An ability that can be countered with emp; and in this scenario - emp'ing your own units?
"I know, we'll give HT's Feedback...Terran will never use anything other than bio again!! Muahahahaha"
Please...It's reading bullshit like this that makes me regret ever clicking on the strategy forum.
Personally I'd rather deal with Feedback than storm any day.
As for the build, I watched the replay and can't say I'll ever try it in ladder. The closest I'll get to it is marine / siege tank / banshee.
Thanks for going to effort of writing it up, I'm sure a few people will find it works for them.
I just got roflstomped by 3gate void ray. Any suggestions on how to deal with it? I managed to scout it 30 seconds before he attacked and had a viking out but it still wasnt enough to stop it.
I don't have a good replay of 3gate VR yet but here is one against 2 stargate allin. Not sure if that build is any good but you can see how easily it is repelled by placing the initial bunker on the outside (something im doing every game).
Also....hellion only scouts 2 zealot and 2 stalker...huge give away. The scan confirmed at least 1 stargate. I add a 2nd bunker bring scvs off the line prematurely to be ready to repair and get vikings and thor out asap. skip OC and grab an ebay for a turret just to be safe. micro vikings and thats it.
If VR target thor micro him back so bunker fire hits VR
For those asking about macro games here is a replay against rank 5 masters toss who goes heavy colossi after seeing my composition. first exchange is pretty equal but I transition to add marauders while he transitions to phoenix. This replay really shows the versatility of the build.
On July 18 2011 02:02 MarineKush wrote: For those asking about macro games here is a replay against rank 5 masters toss who goes heavy colossi after seeing my composition. first exchange is pretty equal but I transition to add marauders while he transitions to phoenix. This replay really shows the versatility of the build.
Seems like you should really get some upgrades on those banshees, you ended up with 10 banshees
for the sake of 100/100 they could all be doing +2 dmg per attack more, or taking less damage from the already low stalker anti air dps
In the first major battle, you had his army down to a few collosus + some stalkers, vs your banshees. You had the money for cloak, and could have straight up won if you had cloak as you'd snipe out all his observers by that point. 4 cloaked banshees and he's spending all his robo time on colo at that point, would have been pretty nice.
all in all it was fun to see some terran tech being used, the early game looked a little flakey, but i think you can get away with it as it looks very similar to a marine/tank/banshee all in, which might put the toss on the back foot.
It's a shame your opponent decided to stop making probes and let you surpass him in the midgame, but im gonna try and have some fun with the composition
I do an extremely similar build with pretty good success. The one thing I noticed that really really hard counters this type of play is a proxy stargate, or really any stargate play.
What experiences do you have holding 6 gate all ins with this? The money mix unit composition is obviously quite strong, but my biggest question is "how do you get there without dying to 6 gate or 3 gate void ray?"
On July 19 2011 05:44 Joedaddy wrote: What experiences do you have holding 6 gate all ins with this? The money mix unit composition is obviously quite strong, but my biggest question is "how do you get there without dying to 6 gate or 3 gate void ray?"
6 gate would lose to this pretty fast, 3 bunks and thors with repair is really good, not to mention thors stop FF which is a big part of the 6 gate.
Id be more scared of Tosses that go macro
Phx/Chargelot/Archon/Immortal would really hurt this.
First, I think the value and effectiveness of your army against high zealot compositions would increase if, when you engage, you allow your thors to lead the push and tank the zealots. Obviously this would reduce the damage the zealots deal to your high dps marines and hellions, leaving them behind to kill the zealots quickly. There are obvious drawbacks. You do not want your thors to be focus fired by stalkers and immortals, but stalkers are mitigated by pdds and immortals should be emped and focused by the thors.
I feel like the above, along with getting +2 vehicle armor before your first push will increase the efficiency of your army significantly. Yes +2 vehicle armor would cost 275 Gas(1 less thor and banshee) but reduce the damage zealots do by 35-40%. If my calculations are correct it should be worth it if you have more than 3 thors.
People will have to mess around with this in a micro map, but, against a 2 gate robo colossus opening, I have a feeling that an early 250mm cannon against colossus would completely change the dynamic of the first push.
In the game against OGKellY, the first push could have gone something like this: + Show Spoiler +
1) thors lead the army and tank the zealots. 2) after all zealots are dead the thors have the ability to move in close and 250mm the colossus
Your marines are safe from zealot/colossus shots, and if thors can actually land the 250cannon, it would seem that your army would have rolled his army much harder and end the game right there.
Let me know what you think. I'm currently a high diamond terran and plan to use this build exclusively in my TvP from now on. Thanks for the great build, Love the style.
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