EPT[G] MarineKush's TvP Alternate Deathball - Page 2
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RaE21
United States260 Posts
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sAfuRos
United States743 Posts
On July 16 2011 12:21 benthekid wrote: This is brilliant!!!! Thors are so good late game vs toss and with vikings/banshees to keep them for being able to kite this comp/build is a much more solid option and much more mobile than wardens build! Wait till Trump here's about this build! This build isn't all in enough for trump | ||
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Bishnu Ghost
34 Posts
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Bishnu Ghost
34 Posts
4 ravens, 2 ghost 12 marines 1 tank 1 viking 4 banshee 5 thor and 6 hellion. 130 supply and easily took down his immortal gateway archon mix. and took a third behind then ended the game 6-7 mins later after a full "emp cleanse" of the thors and banshees since i knew HT were out. NOTE: this was vs masters toss but his macro was a little weak. however, was never allin and only used about 6 scvs to repair on 1st push. replay: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-221568.jpg) | ||
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Spam4119
United States32 Posts
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Bishnu Ghost
34 Posts
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On July 17 2011 09:11 PhiliBiRD wrote: seems like mass blink stalker would stomp on this. As with any mech build blink stalkers are just the biggest pain in the ass and do TOO much damage. | ||
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Bishnu Ghost
34 Posts
its 1-1-1 transitioning to 2 rax 1 fact 2 port with ghost raven banshee and thors as the main unit comp. | ||
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sevia
United States954 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Replay here First: in the video you see the robo with a scan, assume its for colossi, and make a ton of vikings. When I scout a bunker at the ramp I (and many other toss) assume you're going banshee and make a robo right away. Before you commit to vikings I think you should poke the front with a hellion, or scan again, just to confirm there actually are colossi. Second: I obviously dealt with the harass very poorly, even though I saw it coming (saw the starport, saw the banshee, was already preparing for it beforehand since I saw the bunker) but for whatever reason I added the 3 defensive stalkers and obs to my main stalker control group and pulled them away right before the banshee arrived (watch the replay from my vision, the timing of it is actually really funny). Blunder on my part that set me behind. Third: Honestly, I would have reacted a lot differently if I had just scouted. I saw three full bunkers at the front and assumed a typical bio-ball mix with some tanks thrown in. I didn't even know you had thors until you actually left your natural... Lazy lazy lazy. It's been a very long time since I've even seen thors in PvT (thus, me forgetting that you could Feedback them again) but the proper response would be double robo immortals with a lot less gateways. My army was meant to kill MMM, so when you showed up with the exact opposite of that I was a bit flustered. You only had a single EMP when you engaged, so even without Feedback, I think mass Immortals + Storms + Chargelots would have won that battle. All that was left when you were done was the Thors, which immortals kill very easily. Also, I chose a really shitty angle to engage at, whole army was balled up. Would have lost a lot quicker if you had saved your EMPs. Finally, I just get supply blocked a lot... poor mechanics that I'm working on after not playing seriously for a while. Not to discredit you, but I do kind of feel like I lost that game on my own. I like the strategy. Won't be a walkover if they have a proper unit composition (Immortal/Stalker/Templar) but it feels like a viable alternative to MMMG. Question though, how would you deal with more mobile play? None of your units besides the hellions are fast enough to come back to base if the toss did, say, warp prism harass. If someone knows you're using this strategy and just abuses the slowness of it, I think it would be tough to respond without the small groups of units and fast production that MMM has. | ||
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Bishnu Ghost
34 Posts
If I saw a warpprism in my base I would pull 2 thors and banshees and clean it up. then make a viking and look for the WP. If I scouted mass blink stalker I would leave a thor and raven in base to stop observers. If the toss army completely blink stalker pull all scv and go for base trade and then pdd when the engagement eventually happens will crush the stalkers. Maybe that's too ideal but I don't think the current meta game allows for mass blink stalker and the push comes off two base so there's not much room to harass. If mass stalkers with blink does become more common then MMM regains more value. | ||
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Komsa
United States99 Posts
Super balls are something easy to manage during primitive play, but now that people are becoming better at multitasking and using any given unit's to it's full potential, death balls are soon to be a relic of the passed. Quite boring as well if you ask me. | ||
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Spam4119
United States32 Posts
How do you play out longer games (such as 4 bases each)? Do you keep the general composition, or do you tend to favor more ghosts, or more thors, or more hellions? (I understand that it really depends on what composition they are going for, but is there any a point where you decide you need to completely transition out of thors and into tanks or out of ghosts and into marauders or something like that?) Also, how do you tend to see protoss respond to it? I know I play a very specific mech build of hellions thors and marauders against zerg and i can list pretty much all the most common reactions I see. What do you tend to see come out from protoss, and what gives you the most trouble and what makes you smile when you see them go into a certain build? Sorry I am asking so many questions, I want to try this out soon and I am just curious about some of the nuances of the build. | ||
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Dudemeister
Sweden314 Posts
I started playing this build in YABOT until I got 100% and then hit the ladder. 7 wins 0 losses so far. The emp on thors is ingenious. Tripple scouting with scv/hellion/banshee just feels so good. No problems with immortal stalker though, 2 people tried to do it but EMP just shut it down. Maybe it's not as good in higher level play as Jinro mentioned, but for my level it's just a roflstomp. And in like 5 games they tried to DT rush me with the raven just popping when the DT's appear. Amazing build dude  | ||
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Bishnu Ghost
34 Posts
Not sure if you are Terran Komsa but as many have experience we drop here and there and snipe and pick off only to be 1A'd and crushed. Drops rely on luck and you cannot deny that. You cannot see every Observer and if you lose 2 medivacs with MM inside you are done. So while maybe pros are willing to go down in style not every casual gamer is. boring maybe, but effective in many cases and this build isnt necessarily for the highest levels. just like the 3 rax 50 food push does not work at diamond and up but is useful for newbies learning to macro and still want a chance to win. Even gold toss know if they can sit back and make 6-8 colossi they can a-move win. Is that boring for white-ra and kiwikaki? of course. and for you as well im sure. This does not remove the merit of the build. Definitely not trying to change the pro-level meta game here but more so open up new unit comps that can expose the standard play of toss. | ||
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Dudemeister
Sweden314 Posts
On July 17 2011 13:31 Spam4119 wrote: How do you play out longer games (such as 4 bases each)? Do you keep the general composition, or do you tend to favor more ghosts, or more thors, or more hellions? (I understand that it really depends on what composition they are going for, but is there any a point where you decide you need to completely transition out of thors and into tanks or out of ghosts and into marauders or something like that?) . I'd say for a longer game thor/hellion/ghost/banshee is the best deathball you can get. I tried all popular compositions in Unit tester with different army sizes and upgrades. Thor/Hellion/Banshee/Ghost always comes out on top. | ||
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Bishnu Ghost
34 Posts
@Spam - early pressure is not viable because you are teching and expanding. The 3 pillars - Tech, Econ and Aggression, only two can ever be done efficiently. If you decide to go for two starports then by all means you use your banshees to pick off the stalkers at the towers and to pick off tech and pylons. don't be greedy. you need them for dps. Once blink is out use great caution. A longer game means you were unable to push out with 130-150 food and win the game and will be difficult to rebuild the thor and raven army. If you sense a macro game brewing or you feel uneasy about moving out, send me a replay because I have yet to experience this. Remember this build is not auto-win, nor should any build be (nerf inc). But if you scout and macro - two keys to all RTS games then you should have an >50% win ratio which is all you can ask for. Toss will either add immortals/colossi likely from 2 robos or go for big HT play. Both are shut down by scouting this and reacting with either more ghosts or more air. This build is two new to expand much more on this point. Pls ask more questions. | ||
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benthekid
United States132 Posts
I think the build order is great against zerg as well. Just skip the armory raven step and go straight into blue flame and thors. the bunker keeps you safe against rushes while the 27 CC is more econ heavy that traditional 1-1-1. I just love how if you do the build right you don't float any resources until you're waiting for the armory to finish. I also love that you can execute this build with less than 100 apm. this build would be even better if they didn't nerf thor back to energy. Feedback is just one of the reasons it seems blizzard just want's terran to use bio in TvP. | ||
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Dudemeister
Sweden314 Posts
Salavge bunker, add armory and a second rax. As the armory is building make a tank. Stop scv production. Once the Thor is finished attack and add around 12 scvs on auto repair. You will be pushing with about 12 marines, 12 scvs, 2 tanks and a thor. It's incredibly hard to stop even if he has gone 3 gate. If you dont want to all in you can focus on getting the expo up asap and rush to the banshees so you equalize the economy a bit. Cloak I would say is a good idea here. Robo is usually delayed and stalker count is usually low. | ||
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SecondChance
Australia603 Posts
On July 17 2011 14:21 benthekid wrote: Just wanted to point out you didn't follow your build order in your latest replay. How you ask? well you didn't get the armor ups. You could've easily won with the first push as all he could attack you with was zealots. Also you were targeting the nexus while his zealots hacked away at your thors for a while during that first fight. 2nd fight wasn't even close. Toss did have bad macro and did play a rare turtling style unlike protoss players I've seen. But I really love this build and when I get it memorized I will try this every game TvP. I think the build order is great against zerg as well. Just skip the armory raven step and go straight into blue flame and thors. the bunker keeps you safe against rushes while the 27 CC is more econ heavy that traditional 1-1-1. I just love how if you do the build right you don't float any resources until you're waiting for the armory to finish. I also love that you can execute this build with less than 100 apm. this build would be even better if they didn't nerf thor back to energy. Feedback is just one of the reasons it seems blizzard just want's terran to use bio in TvP. Such a preposterous statement to make. Did you even think about it before you typed it? Let's go over that again. "Blizzard wants terran players to use bio in the TvP matchup. Pray tell, how you know that the Sc2 developers manipulate players into using particular styles in MU's - and for what reasons? Because of one ability? An ability that can be countered with emp; and in this scenario - emp'ing your own units? "I know, we'll give HT's Feedback...Terran will never use anything other than bio again!! Muahahahaha" Please...It's reading bullshit like this that makes me regret ever clicking on the strategy forum. Personally I'd rather deal with Feedback than storm any day. As for the build, I watched the replay and can't say I'll ever try it in ladder. The closest I'll get to it is marine / siege tank / banshee. Thanks for going to effort of writing it up, I'm sure a few people will find it works for them. | ||
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