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[D][G] Advanced ZvP & ZvT early game timing tells - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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arbitrageur
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia1202 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-09 17:17:24
July 09 2011 16:00 GMT
#61
On July 08 2011 12:46 Xapti wrote:
I didn't like this guide personally. I found it very convoluted and/or just plain poorly written.
I don't understand why 2 people said it was well-written.
How is this good English?:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2011 14:08 arbitrageur wrote:
Despite ZvP having more timings to learn, timings aren't as important as his range is betrayed by the composition he shows in comparison to nexus and usually this with general gas timings and chrono allocation is enough.

And that's just the quality of the English sentence syntax, let alone the lack of structuring, and even formatting. Sure, some basic paragraphs are there, a bit of bullets, and titles, which is useful but it doesn't make it great, nor does it fix the problems.

For some parts that I actually did seem to understand the reasoning, I wouldn't even necessarily agree with them. The topic also seemed to cover the game in way too much of an analytical and narrow-visioned method. The problem is that different maps have different timings, different game actions change timings, and different players have their own differences in build style.
Not only that, but oftentimes players will not opt for the most efficient way of running a certain build since it's too much of a dead giveaway of their actions.
Aside from those things, there's nothing too wrong with writing and suggesting to play to analytical, but I would have to say that it's a small minority of people who excel at that. Overall I'd say this goes over too many people's heads, and is definitely not worth the time practicing and training the brain to deal with some of the stuff mentioned.

As a suggestion to the author, aside from just fixing up some structure here and there (and everywhere), I think it would be a good idea to explain and/or introduce various concepts that you talk about in a sort of explanation section (or preface). In addition, there should be some sort of introduction which can be related to, or part of the explanation of concepts, as well as overview (conclusion) paragraphs after a section.


yeah I realise the quality of writing is pretty poor. This post started as a brain dump without any clear structure on sc2sea.com then I went to my sc2 notepad and added in all the timings that I had verified multiple times in progames. I just didn't and don't have the incentive to spend 2-3 hours improving the quality, but i did put in 1 hour making it at least understandable.

Although i must dispute your other criticisms, namely that its overly analytical and too narrow minded. From the perspective of knowing these timings and playing good players, my experience of never dying to dts, never being caught off guard by 1 base stargate all ins, always knowing blink is a huge part of his range when he reveals it, never not nkowing proxy rax is coming, etc, i know how good these timings are when you're playing good players.

The problem is that different maps have different timings, different game actions change timings, and different players have their own differences in build style.
Not only that, but oftentimes players will not opt for the most efficient way of running a certain build since it's too much of a dead giveaway of their actions.


- Maps have the same timings. His range changes because different builds have different levels of effectiveness.
- Provide examples of "game actions change timings" and how this invalidates what I'm saying as something other than extremely useful.
- Do you realise that my approach that I've used through the entire OP - that of assigning a range based on timing tells and other information - is due solely BECAUSE ppl have different build styles?
- Since when does suboptimal execution of a build jeopardize a player who is sticking to these timings? Provide an example.
arbitrageur
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia1202 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-09 16:36:18
July 09 2011 16:05 GMT
#62
On July 08 2011 15:29 Packeteer wrote:
These timings are WAY too specific. I am a 1600+ masters protoss player and I consistently have different timings for my 1 gate and 3 gate expands.


You didn't read my post, or you forgot it when you wrote this reply.

Sometimes I go zeal, stalker, stalker, sentry. Sometimes I go zeal, sentry, sentry, sentry. I change this based on the gas timing I scout. The earlier of those two examples makes my 1 gate expo about the same time as a 3 gate expo but with pressure.


Use your brain. Your choice of units affect your range. In poker, a check raise does not MEAN that he's got 2 pair. It does not MEAN he's got a flush draw. You assign a RANGE based on a huge amount of variables, then you make an optimal play based off this range.

5:20 nexus does not MEAN 1 gate expansion. It means build (A), (B), or (C). The important thing is that (D), (E) and (F) cannot be in his range. You can then construct an optimal play, rather than blundering into the midgame with a very vague idea of what your opponent is doing. Yes, you can narrow it down with these "finer details" you're talking about, I presume unit composition, chrono allocation and the like, but if you sacrifice clock timings you have no idea w hat you're missing out on.

Getting locked into these timings is only going to confuse you as a player. Unfortunately there is no quick answer to scouting. You have to be able to read into their build using finer details than the game clock.


If you played zerg you would die to DTs some of the time, have 2 queens against 4 phoenix some of the time, think hes "probably" 1 gate expo but he has a twilight, think his build range composes of multiple elements but indeed it can only be 1 gateway, think terran is "most likely" 12 rax 16 CC but in fact hes 12 14 proxy, think terran is 1214 but he's 1111, think terran is gas first but you're actually not sure and as such you don't alter your play, etc. You simply have no idea what you're talking about.

"confuse you as a player". Lol. So knowing someone is proxy rax with 100% confidence is confusing? Knowing that somebody is gas first is confusing? Knowing that his nexus is uber late is confusing? What is it about this information is confusing to you?
n3ac3y
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States108 Posts
July 09 2011 16:32 GMT
#63
Im not zerg, but this is the level of analysis that will really improve players decision making, excellent post.
BINGEGAMING.TV coming soon 2013 - WE DEDICATE OUR LIVES TO GAMING!
SageEnder
Profile Joined February 2011
United States26 Posts
July 09 2011 19:22 GMT
#64
I have been looking for a post to know timing to be warrey of, thanks this is amazing.
the gates are down
Sleight
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
2471 Posts
July 09 2011 22:25 GMT
#65
I hope people appreciate that understanding how you need to handle the game at the Master's and up level is done exactly as this is presented. Having taken T to mid-high Master's, then P, and now working on my Z, if you aren't doing this, you are making yourself suffer needlessly.

You don't NEED to remember every single timing, just the ones that present dramatic problems for you. Knowing the critical features, aka, an 11Rax12Rax has 5 marines at your doorstep 1:30 after the first marine finishes, inform your Build Order first and your decision making second.

ZvT
-Plan your build so your pool finishes early enough to stop 2 Rax pressure
-If no 2 rax, have defense in place for first Hellion(s) at 5:05 and prepare for a Banshee by 6:30 and cloak by 7:30
-What are the 2-3 key big midgame timings? Important Marine-Tank push, 2 medivac, and FE timings?

Knowing that BEST CASE 1 or 2 Hellions hit you right at 5 minutes, and 2 or 4 hit by 5:30, means that if you have your Spines or Roaches up then, you will always be safe, from Bronze to GM. How can people say this isn't helpful no matter the league? You get prepared, you drone more and continue your plan safely.

BO planning
-What is your target midgame? What number of bases, gasses, and tech structures do you need to achieve that end?

-When do you NEED the first/key upgrade done? In ZvP, Lingspeed around 6 min to stomp a 4 gate is critical, and earlier stops Stalker pressure. but in ZvT? If you aren't going to use them to stop a Terran player AT THAT TIME, why get it so early? I take my gas so I can finish Ling Speed at the right time given a particular Terran tech path. If he goes 2 rax, it's a few food earlier. If it's a Hellion opening, I take it later and use Spines.

ZvP
-How do you get your Hatch down by 25 food? If he cannons? 2 gates?
-How are you stopping 4 gate at 6min?
-No Stargate, <5 Gateways, and no tech? Prepare for DT by 8 min.
-5 gate FE cancel starts 100 seconds after the Nexus starts (5:30-> ~7 min it leaves his base)
-6 gate push will HIT as Forge finishes which, with constant CB it takes 1:50min, so guess 2 min from when you see it start spinning if a lot of CB, 2:40 is longest possible time.

You can answer all your planning questions based on the best case scenario timings in a MU and then know what you need when in doubt. If you see no FE by 6 min, you should be hyper vigilant the next 30 seconds and prepare for a big Gateway and maybe Stargate push.

You don't need to know all the times, just the ones that your build can't deal with naturally.
One Love
Trakky
Profile Joined February 2011
95 Posts
August 13 2011 20:12 GMT
#66
Very well-written, I can`t wait for FFE deconstruction. I have been playing with nestea`s 12 pool 19 hatch opening vs FFE (60 drones by 9 mins and lair at this time) with very high success rate at mid-masters lvl (no drone scout, but very early lings to send to all the bases at once). However, because a toss has a cannon at his front, I cannot do ling pokes and I have no idea if he`s going stargate, DT, 7gate blink, or just standard colli ball. What I`m doing is getting evo chamber at 6:40 and getting 3 blind spores (oh well, better than losing the game) and sacing in an ovi at 7:30. If it`s cross on some maps, I might have trouble getting an ovi there in time though.
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