EPTEdit: What about on a map like Tal Darim Altar where, if I'm not lucky with my drone scout and I can't get in to check gases, I only see the rax and marines? What would his range of builds be from there?
[D][G] Advanced ZvP & ZvT early game timing tells - Page 2
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
Edit: What about on a map like Tal Darim Altar where, if I'm not lucky with my drone scout and I can't get in to check gases, I only see the rax and marines? What would his range of builds be from there? | ||
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
On July 08 2011 00:46 Amaterasu1234 wrote: Wow. Ya know, it's nice to finally have all these things written down as I could never remember them. Edit: What about on a map like Tal Darim Altar where, if I'm not lucky with my drone scout and I can't get in to check gases, I only see the rax and marines? What would his range of builds be from there? Perhaps a better player should answer this question. My main piece of advice would be to make sure that the next marine that pops out finishes at one of the 3:05 3:30 3:55 timings so you can know that it's a 12 rax you're looking at. No reaper, 1 rax and constant marine production are all tells and does have consequences for his range. You can already eliminate 12 rax 16 cc, 1 rax reaper, 1 gas 1 fact reactor hellion, and if he constantly makes marines numerous 6 rax variations. But as for your question with regards to his range and how we should play out this game I will not try to guess at this or give advice. Such a tough question.. and one for a much better player. | ||
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djengizz
Netherlands42 Posts
When we start thinking in ranges we can use game theory to formulate optimal responses against those ranges. We can build decision trees and prioritize information in a game of incomplete information. We can put numbers on concepts that look very abstract on the surface and use math in the game of Starcraft to improve our winrate. Although Starcraft is a game were an almost infinite number of variables influence our decision making we're still able to improve on our decision making by putting these variables in a model (like you did here). The model will always be flawed but with the growth of the game and the number of games played steadily increasing, these models should become more accurate over time and even a flawed model is often better than no model and playing purely on instinct and experience. Of course this is exactly what good players are doing already (whether it's consciously or simply because of experience) but to formulate these ranges and their corresponding optimal response we have a way of sharing this experience and making concepts like 'game sense' actually something we can learn. These are all steps in improving our knowledge of the game and maybe making the steep learning curve of Starcraft a little less steep. Thanks for the realization! Now i can't wait to dive into some replays and extract some statistics to formulate my own models. | ||
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Nairul
United States262 Posts
This all overwhelms me. Does the average masters/gm Zerg have all this stuff memorized? I'm a high diamond zerg. I have never used in-game time in my scouting/reacting habits. Other than making queue-cards and straight memorizing this stuff for hours... whats the best way to incorporate this knowledge into my gameplay? Are there more important timings than others to learn first? This is probably why you put "Advanced" in the title xD | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
Also, in regards to your ZvP scouting and Dark Templar, I can get 3 dts, (with 6 zeals and 1 stalker) at 6:45 and expand soon after, and in this case the expansion is planned but the zealot count chases all lings scouting natural out, so it's DT before expansion instead of expand --> DT and no scouting on if I've expanded or not (speedlings can find out, suicide lings can find out). However, a problem with DT first is it's more risky for both players, and most importantly, any DT before nexus strat (10p10g12gas15core17gas17pylon) can be significantly delayed by drone scout micro since they will wait to place TC before drone is pushed from base, at about 4:15... Also, regarding "DTs do damage but don't cripple. I'm not sure the optimal response against the above information. I'm feeling mass ling, as this is good vs both elements of his range and is necessatated pre-6:45-6:55 anyway" mass ling is bad since P will pull his Dtemplar, group his zealots and warp in 3 sentries and have 1archon6zeal3sentry1stalker to defend. It completely mauls mass ling unless you catch in the open, but DTs can run back to base unharmed and the rest of the force never leaves the base anyway -- I suggest roach because P has to wait to push once he morphs to archon so that gives you time to get roach | ||
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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
Not to mention all that info comes without the overlord that dies to the sentry but retrieves no information. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On July 08 2011 03:13 djengizz wrote: Not only is this a great thread with real specific timing examples but for me personally, the best part of this thread is thinking about your opponents buildorder in terms of ranges. When we start thinking in ranges we can use game theory to formulate optimal responses against those ranges. We can build decision trees and prioritize information in a game of incomplete information. We can put numbers on concepts that look very abstract on the surface and use math in the game of Starcraft to improve our winrate. Thanks for the realization! Now i can't wait to dive into some replays and extract some statistics to formulate my own models. ...is it possible to actually make something like a mind-map as a visual of sorts? 'Cause not only would that be just amazing, it'd be infinitely helpful to every zerg player ever! | ||
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1Lamb1Rice
United States435 Posts
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edc
United States666 Posts
Can you please create a thread giving the timings of Zerg builds, to complete the set? | ||
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Perfect
United States322 Posts
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Adrenaline Seed
United States194 Posts
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On July 08 2011 05:26 Perfect wrote: Is there anything like this for Terrans to know the times of Z and P? I wouldn't know about P, but for Z, everything's way more generalized, since Zergs USUALLY react to what T and P is doing. Ofc there are times that we initiate the pressure ourselves, but not too often. The tells for Z are fairly easy: - Check Pool timing, gas timing, expo timing. It's fairly obvious whether he's opening 14g/14p, 11p/18 hatch/ 15 hatch ? pool, etc. You could get into seconds but it doesn't really matter. - Check when Ling Speed kicks in. Delayed Ling speed could be a hatch first opening with no speed, or fast Lair with no speed. If Lings are still speedless around 7 mins in, Z is either going roaches, roach/bane, fast Lair, Spanishiwa, or just forgot speed ^.^ 1-2 scans will tell you exactly which. You should probably scan around 6:30 for fast Lair (with speedless lings), if you don't see it, expect heavy Ling/Bane/Roach aggression. If there's no roaches or banes, then it's Spanishiwa build. - Depending on Lair timing, scan at either 8 min (fast Lair) or 9-9:30 min mark for Infestation Pit/Spire. I mean... Terran has scans. You should never feel blind in early game since you're dictating the early game. | ||
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Adrenaline Seed
United States194 Posts
On July 08 2011 05:44 Flonomenalz wrote: I wouldn't know about P, but for Z, everything's way more generalized, since Zergs USUALLY react to what T and P is doing. Ofc there are times that we initiate the pressure ourselves, but not too often. The tells for Z are fairly easy: - Check Pool timing, gas timing, expo timing. It's fairly obvious whether he's opening 14g/14p, 11p/18 hatch/ 15 hatch ? pool, etc. You could get into seconds but it doesn't really matter. - Check when Ling Speed kicks in. Delayed Ling speed could be a hatch first opening with no speed, or fast Lair with no speed. If Lings are still speedless around 7 mins in, Z is either going roaches, roach/bane, fast Lair, Spanishiwa, or just forgot speed ^.^ 1-2 scans will tell you exactly which. You should probably scan around 6:30 for fast Lair (with speedless lings), if you don't see it, expect heavy Ling/Bane/Roach aggression. If there's no roaches or banes, then it's Spanishiwa build. - Depending on Lair timing, scan at either 8 min (fast Lair) or 9-9:30 min mark for Infestation Pit/Spire. I mean... Terran has scans. You should never feel blind in early game since you're dictating the early game. Great! I keep losing to this ~12 min Mass roach after normal opening. I finally started to notice that when Z does NOT go for a gas around pool timing they usually end up doing a huge roach push, but was not 100% sure on that. I will also look out for these other tips. | ||
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Perfect
United States322 Posts
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DrDoom
United States107 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On July 08 2011 05:53 Perfect wrote: how do you scout a 12 drone rush. You don't, it's largely irrelevant on the current maps. The only reason it was ever useful is because Steppes of War had a rush distance that was ridiculous. I'm not saying those close positions don't exist still (thanks for not fixing Metalopolis), but they're on 4-player maps, and going for a 12 drone rush on a 4-player map is throwing the dice on a 33% win rate. | ||
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Samp
Canada783 Posts
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
On July 08 2011 04:23 tehemperorer wrote: Great thread, it helps my PvT too seeing the timings that Terran hits against Zerg. Also, in regards to your ZvP scouting and Dark Templar, I can get 3 dts, (with 6 zeals and 1 stalker) at 6:45 and expand soon after, and in this case the expansion is planned but the zealot count chases all lings scouting natural out, so it's DT before expansion instead of expand --> DT and no scouting on if I've expanded or not (speedlings can find out, suicide lings can find out). However, a problem with DT first is it's more risky for both players, and most importantly, any DT before nexus strat (10p10g12gas15core17gas17pylon) can be significantly delayed by drone scout micro since they will wait to place TC before drone is pushed from base, at about 4:15... Yea, against 1417 without sentry it's auto evo and you'll have spore in time no matter what. 10p10g will actually confuse me in a real game though, but when I see you haven't made a sentry I'll be ready because gas cheese is such a large part of your range. Anyway you can't get a 6:45 DT warp if I drone scout because you can't autotwilight. For this you have to rely on me not drone scouting or a successful proxy. Also 6:45 is the optimal autotwilight off 1 chrono 12 gate, 14g17g. with 10p10g you should be able to get it earlier. Also, regarding "DTs do damage but don't cripple. I'm not sure the optimal response against the above information. I'm feeling mass ling, as this is good vs both elements of his range and is necessatated pre-6:45-6:55 anyway" mass ling is bad since P will pull his Dtemplar, group his zealots and warp in 3 sentries and have 1archon6zeal3sentry1stalker to defend. The information I'm talking about is the information that you're either - blink - stargate w/ or w/out gateway Which is also the information that you're NOT DTs. Is there anything like this for Terrans to know the times of Z and P? Search "timings" in TL search function. There's a whole list of Z timings. Only problem with that thread is it hasn't been integrated into a nice easy to use model for you. All I know is that speed off 14g14p finishes at 5:02. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
I don't understand why 2 people said it was well-written. How is this good English?: On July 07 2011 14:08 arbitrageur wrote: Despite ZvP having more timings to learn, timings aren't as important as his range is betrayed by the composition he shows in comparison to nexus and usually this with general gas timings and chrono allocation is enough. And that's just the quality of the English sentence syntax, let alone the lack of structuring, and even formatting. Sure, some basic paragraphs are there, a bit of bullets, and titles, which is useful but it doesn't make it great, nor does it fix the problems. For some parts that I actually did seem to understand the reasoning, I wouldn't even necessarily agree with them. The topic also seemed to cover the game in way too much of an analytical and narrow-visioned method. The problem is that different maps have different timings, different game actions change timings, and different players have their own differences in build style. Not only that, but oftentimes players will not opt for the most efficient way of running a certain build since it's too much of a dead giveaway of their actions. Aside from those things, there's nothing too wrong with writing and suggesting to play to analytical, but I would have to say that it's a small minority of people who excel at that. Overall I'd say this goes over too many people's heads, and is definitely not worth the time practicing and training the brain to deal with some of the stuff mentioned. As a suggestion to the author, aside from just fixing up some structure here and there (and everywhere), I think it would be a good idea to explain and/or introduce various concepts that you talk about in a sort of explanation section (or preface). In addition, there should be some sort of introduction which can be related to, or part of the explanation of concepts, as well as overview (conclusion) paragraphs after a section. | ||
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