EPTThe issue I've had, and you might also encounter, is if zerg goes spire tech, and gets a bunch of corrupters to protect his overseers?
[G] PvZ Phoenix DT: A New Style - Page 2
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Selkie
United States530 Posts
The issue I've had, and you might also encounter, is if zerg goes spire tech, and gets a bunch of corrupters to protect his overseers? | ||
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beadgcf
United States1 Post
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denzelz
United States604 Posts
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
joking aside 3rd queen + overseer = infinite transfusion -> sup? how you gona hold hydra highway push if they make more than 1 overseer? more than half of GM and most of high master played/followed BW in the past and you think we havent tried this since beta phase 1? lolol | ||
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FXOjEcho
Canada318 Posts
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ItsMartyz
Netherlands17 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
I think this could actually be more effective than the style was in SC1 :D | ||
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Frequencyy
United States344 Posts
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Amarkov
United States131 Posts
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Amarkov
United States131 Posts
On June 27 2011 03:02 Frequencyy wrote: All you guys are complete theory crafters, you simply say "Oh Hydralisks, gg" Well the OP has actually tested this build and says it has worked against masters level people so unless you're testing this build yourself you should not critique it so hard, the reason new builds are never explored is because of arrogance and the unwillingness to except anything that is not the norm, so test the build yourself or get out the thread. His actual replays involving hydras involve zergs failing at doing an all-in, and then clearly having no idea what the fuck (one of them just straight out died to DTs in his mineral line). There are plenty of players who get to masters by all-inning well, that doesn't really demonstrate this build being effective. | ||
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Frequencyy
United States344 Posts
On June 27 2011 03:10 Amarkov wrote: His actual replays involving hydras involve zergs failing at doing an all-in, and then clearly having no idea what the fuck (one of them just straight out died to DTs in his mineral line). There are plenty of players who get to masters by all-inning well, that doesn't really demonstrate this build being effective. Note I revised that post above, did not come out the way I wanted it to. If zerg makes a mistake doing an all-in then that's just part of the game, mistakes will happen and that's simply part of the game. | ||
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Whiplash
United States2929 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
Here's my 2 cents: People really shouldn't post strategies that say this. (Honestly any opener will do, you can go forge fast expand or the standard 3gate sentry expand. This is the opener I use, it really doesn’t matter how you get to phase 3, just as long as it’s safe and you make it there.) Why? Because at higher levels, it's just false. For such a cutesy mid-game plan, you're really going to need to hit key timings to shut down expansions and still be able to hold various aggressive builds, and I don't see why I should believe that you can accomplish this with any possible safe opening. | ||
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hypnobean
89 Posts
On June 27 2011 00:58 Sweetness.751 wrote: See this is a much better post than your last one. There was no reason to flame my strategy earlier. You have unbiased critique this time that weighs both side. Anything can happen in game, and your arguments are certainly vaild, however I always get cannons against Zerg's Usually 2 at the natural for early aggression and 4 at every expo afterwords. LIngs die quite quickly to cannons, Zealots and good sim citying, I must add. Also Protoss would be on 3 gates and a Stargate b4 the harassment (quite standard), and eventually 5 gates once DT's are out. Then potentially 9 gates when the 3rd is up and running, with HT tech researching. That sounds pretty legit to me. Blink and Charge are available to you depending on what you scout. Ling/Infestor? Zealots with Charge. Ling/Muta? Doesn't really matter, since Phoenix can handle the Mutas. Mass Roach or mass Hydra? Blink is the safer bet for sniping Overseers and getting a general micro advantage. I reread my earlier post and don't see how it was a flame. I just offered my response to one of your games, which is what you requested. | ||
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
It appeared as though they were going a stargate exand, and he went to deny my 3rd with void ray/phoenix but I had enough queens to drive them away. My normal ZvP is ling/infestor so my infestor tech was on the way. When he revealed exactly how many phoenix he had (and an additional void ray) I dropped a Hydra den. I managed to catch his air in a fungal and killed them. His DTs caught me incredibly offguard and he managed to take my 3rd down since it had low heath. I fungaled every DT and killed them. Then I went for a ling/hydra/infestor push with 5 infestors 8-12ish Hydras and speedlings (with+2 at this point I believe) He had a handful of gateway units and 1 archon at his base since I killed all of his harassing units. Either way I could not see this style of play doing well against infestor play and standard play is leaning towards infestors at the moment. Phoenix do not snipe Overseers very quickly and the combination of infestors and hydralisks shut it down terribly. Even though I was caught offguard by his DTs all I had to do was A move, any infestor micro was unnecessary I can't see this working at a high level. | ||
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
On June 27 2011 01:32 denzelz wrote: 2 Base Hydra bust will end this build. If I scout more than 4 Phoenix from you, I'm making a lot of Hydras. then he scouts your hydras and does colossus instead of dt and you lose. | ||
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Amarkov
United States131 Posts
On June 27 2011 06:41 Soulish wrote: then he scouts your hydras and does colossus instead of dt and you lose. So you're going to go down literally every tech path and get 2 colossi out by the time the hydra push comes? Yeah... that won't happen in a real game. You'd be lucky to get out a single colossus if you're doing that as a transition from intended DTs. Of course, you could just skip DTs entirely and go colossi, assuming that he's going to get hydras as a response to phoenixes. Congrats, you've rediscovered standard protoss air play! | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On June 26 2011 23:55 Sweetness.751 wrote: I encourage people to watch the replays before saying it is a fail. Yes I agree the theory is not new, as Bisu had invented it long ago. However in SC2 I have yet to see a pro try and attempt something similar in a tournament setting, so in that sense one can say it is new. As for the early push doing damage, yes it can be blindly countered, just like every strategy and build created. However you have the option of pulling back and not attacking just to force the Zerg to make units. I mentioned in the thread the opening is irrelevant, as long as whatever you do gets you to the final goal. I choose 2gate expand because I believe that having a mobile army as opposed to cannons is much preferred in my eyes. I love to 2 gate Zergs playing an early macro game by 2 gating them on close positions a lot of maps. The pressure of making them make units, and killing maybe 1-2 drones is enough damage. You of course just have to be really careful with your Zealots because you have so few and its early in the game. Its a very micro oriented style of play that I like a lot. Like you said it provides you with mobility that cannons cannot, which gives you map presence against the Zerg. So if you can micro your units well, while powering like crazy at home, it can be truly awesome. You make the Zerg feel like a Protoss for once, trapped inside their base with no where to run. The key is not losing too many zealots while doing efficient damage, and getting that 2nd base up sooner, and powering well enough behind it. I've lost a few games doing this just because my zealots get a little out of position. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On June 27 2011 03:24 PJA wrote: I am not going to comment on the particular strategy, except that I think it will lose really badly to a roach/hydra 2 base. Here's my 2 cents: People really shouldn't post strategies that say this. Why? Because at higher levels, it's just false. For such a cutesy mid-game plan, you're really going to need to hit key timings to shut down expansions and still be able to hold various aggressive builds, and I don't see why I should believe that you can accomplish this with any possible safe opening. I dont think the intention was to bring a completely polished build to the community. I think the overall usefulness of this thread lies in the idea behind pressuring with the DTs simultaneous with the phoenix harass and not just one before the other. The build is not refined and neither is his play (not adding additional gateways timely in any game). What I saw from the replays was the ability for you, as protoss, to take a safer third. I dont think JUST phoenix or JUST DT would do that on their own, but the combination of both really makes attacking the last thing on their mind it seems. | ||
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OminouS
Sweden1343 Posts
Zealots (the money sink) is useless against Z. In BW you could follow up with some speed +1 lots and then add HT. You need another building for the HT's aswell in SC2. I've tried variations of this build a lot in SC2, never really gotten it to work. I would love to be proven wrong though. | ||
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