• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:17
CEST 16:17
KST 23:17
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall12HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed10Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll4Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Who will win EWC 2025? Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Starcraft in widescreen A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Future of Porn Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 606 users

[G] PvZ Phoenix DT: A New Style - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 All
hypnobean
Profile Joined October 2010
89 Posts
June 28 2011 15:34 GMT
#61
On June 28 2011 00:09 Sweetness.751 wrote:
I'm glad after the initial flaming, that people are starting to consider this a real possibility and not so much of a gimmick. The xDaunt thread is helpful that Zeromus linked to at the top of the page. If you are at all curious as to another few pages on the theory behind the style you can check his thread out as well. He also has replays that can further document the effectiveness to this build.

Think of Terran when they get a Raven go mass cloaked banshees then 1-2 vikings to snipe your obs. People say its gimmicky, yet its almost impossible to save your observer. The only real way to counter it is to get several observers which is a huge gas sink, just like overseers. Thus delaing everything else you are doing.


No one was flaming you. You can't expect to post a strategy here without subjecting it to critical evaluation. That people have seen this in action and think it isn't ideal doesn't mean they are flaming you or your strategy. The best strategies survive because they can weather all of the criticism, all of the scrutiny, and still come out as solid. That's what happened with the Bisu style in BW, but in BW HTs and DTs came from the same building, roaches and banelings didn't exist and scourge didn't kill corsairs the way corruptors kill phoenixes.

Even my initial post, which you considered a "flame," stated that the strategy can work but is probably not ideal. I asked you why you would not choose one early game harass strategy then invest that extra gas in a bigger army as opposed to another harass unit, but instead you took that as flaming. That is not conducive to approaching this forum in a constructive manner.
Sweetness.751
Profile Joined April 2011
United States225 Posts
June 30 2011 03:45 GMT
#62
On June 26 2011 23:19 Sweetness.751 wrote:
This will be an overall guide as to how to effectively take map control back from the Zerg and dictate the pace of the game once again as Protoss.

*Many people will probably say this is a gimmicky build or style of play and can be easily countered by spore crawlers and good scouting, but I assure you this is far from the truth. In addition my inspiration came from the great BW player Bisu.

Overview:
Bisu came up with the brilliant idea of how to take map control away from the Zerg after Protoss expands to his natural. His idea was to exploit Zerg’s floating supply (overlords) and then abuse their lack of detection to contain his opponent.

Build:
* This is really more of a play style than a build per say, but I will give you the build I have currently been using, as a reference. My opener is a 2 gate pressure expand into Stargate. If you lose this small army, you need to make sure you do damage otherwise you will be behind. I also don’t really believe in following the supply count to place structures and build units, but here is an outline nevertheless.

Phase 1: Opener

(Honestly any opener will do, you can go forge fast expand or the standard 3gate sentry expand. This is the opener I use, it really doesn’t matter how you get to phase 3, just as long as it’s safe and you make it there.)

2gate Expand
+ Show Spoiler +
9 Plyon
(scout w/ probe)
14 Gate
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
Cyber Core @ 100 gateway completion
(at roughly 20 food is when lings could appear for a standard pool first build. Hide your probe as you will need it later)
Zealot at 100 minerals
Gateway at 150 minerals
Pylon
Warpgate Research @ 100% cyber core completion
Constantly chrono Warpgate Research
Sentry @ 100 gas
2nd assimilator
2 stalkers @ 100 gas
Proxy pylon by hidden probe
Nexus @ 400 minerals


Push out with your force to pressure Zerg. This push can do a lot of damage. Scout with your proxy probe [very important] to see Zerg’s reaction. If he responds with lings warp in 2 zealots at the proxy; if roaches then warp in 2 stalkers. You don’t need to engage if you feel uncomfortable or outnumbered, but if you do engage you need to deny mining and you need to do damage because once you push into his natural your units will eventually die and you will have very little defending for a counter push. My general rule of thumb is, if you can get in between his mineral line and his hatch relatively unscathed then make the push. Otherwise fall back.


Phase 2: Weathering the Storm

+ Show Spoiler +
Immediately begin to sim city your natural. Make a Stargate in your base but near your natural. I usually use a Forge and a 3rd Gateway to wall off my front, however the gateway doesn’t need to be thrown down till after your nexus finishes. Warp in 3rd assimilator so it finishes as Nexus does.
(Constantly chrono workers [unless huge pressure/ all-in is suspected] and warp in Zealots only after you have roughly 4 sentries)
Produce Void Ray immediately @ 100% Stargate completion
Make Twilight Council @ 100 gas.
(Once 3rd assimilator has warped in throw down the 4th assimilator)
@ 100% Void Ray completion, produce Phoenix and constantly do so for the rest of the game.
@ 250 gas surplus and 100% completion of Twilight Council warp in Dark Shrine.


Why the Void Ray?

+ Show Spoiler +
There are two reasons for the Void Ray. The first is for early Roach aggression. I’ve found that a high roach count before the DT tech finishes can do a tremendous amount of damage since all you have are zealots and sentries. The Void Ray is a solid solution to this problem, even though you may need to run probes till the roaches are pushed back by the Void Ray, as the zealots and Sentries can more than handle the lings. Ultimately if he is going pure roach he will be in a world of hurt once DT tech finishes. The Void Ray also is a good way to pressure/deny the Zerg’s third while DTs focus on Drones.



Phase 3: Harass to Death

+ Show Spoiler +
The Dark Shrine should finish once 2-3 phoenix are out. Reveal your Phoenix while rallying your Void Ray to his suspected 3rd base. Warp in as many DTs as you can afford, 3-4 usually. Make sure you don’t run your DTs into his main/natural without scouting with phoenix to see if he has spores or an overseer.

DTs need to focus on morphing spores and drones while Phoenix focus down Overseers, Queens and Overlords. The Void should be attacking the 3rd. It’s very important to hit his third b4 he can complete spores to defend it.

Once the initial harassment phase starts, take your 3rd base. It the timing is anywhere between the 11-13 minute mark depending on how quickly you rush the build.

With proper unit control you should have complete map control and can now contain the Zerg to 2 bases and 3 at the worst, while expanding quite freely. The Zerg cannot leave the creep and venture far away from his spore crawlers as he will have no detection against a warp in of DTs as the Phoenix can snipe Overseers easily.


Follow up

+ Show Spoiler +
Once the third base goes down I recommend making 2 more gateways as your money will pile up otherwise, then a Robo for observers and a warp prism. Produce 3-4 more gateways once your third is saturated while teching to Templar Archives.

If he is still on 2 bases, expect a huge all-in push to just kill you. Use forcefield to defend and snipe the overseer at all costs. Once it is dead, you can warp in a round of DTs and clean up his army.

If he manages to take his third, you should be dropping DTs in his main and warping zealots to assist. Have the DTs/zealots to snipe drones and then expensive tech (a spire would be my first choice, then hydra den). Remember to run your DTs back to your prism to retreat while leaving the zealots behind. Multi-pronged attacks are the name of the game, poking with your main army to his third while doing this is smart as well as lifting queens with Phoenix and sniping overlords/overseers.

Just keep denying bases with the DTs sitting at potential Zerg expos and eventually you will starve him to death. Any time you see an overseer, it should be your Phoenixes’ top priority.


Replays

+ Show Spoiler +
Ling/Infestor

[image loading]

Roach/Hydra/Infestor

[image loading]


Roach/Hydra

[image loading]

Ling/Muta

[image loading]

Mass Hydra

[image loading]

Holding Roach/Ling early aggression

[image loading]

Holding Roach/Ling early aggression into Void Ray DT
*A much better example of holding Roach/Ling aggression

[image loading]


I also would like to point out that I have successfully displayed this style vs high master caliber players and this is a micro intensive strategy that requires much APM to execute. I in fact macro horribly during the harass and usually my money piles up, however I gain such a huge advantage that it does not matter.

Elentos wrote: Do you think only 10 life points more for Viking is enough bObA wrote: 10 life points is all you need to send someone to the Shadow Realm.
epikAnglory
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States1120 Posts
June 30 2011 04:01 GMT
#63
I find that a Hydralisk all in after the units are revealed (if the Zerg has a Hydralisk den either prebuilt or from reaction) should be good. I watched the replays, and I feel that if the Zerg just makes about 2-3 Overseers and builds Hydra Ling, he could kill you or deny your third for sure. Most users in here have the mindset of getting killed before the harass, however after can be done as well.

Zealot Sentry? Hydralisk kill. DTs with Overseers? Sad Zeratul. Hydralisks vs Low Phoenix count? Lol

That actually makes sense because it is a reaction, unlike how many sad users in here are saying this can't hold off a Hydralisk drop, which if you do well, most players would not scout your Stargate in time to drop you. That is similar to how people are saying a 6 pool is a counter to 15 Nexus.
710+ Posts with a Probe Icon =D
MK4512
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada938 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-30 04:04:49
June 30 2011 04:02 GMT
#64
Uh, could I ask what level this is played at? because I can see this being incredibly difficult to execute against a good opponent, but being very effective. If this is versus an opponent who isnt of high caliber, they will be flustered by this kind of harass no matter what it is or how well it is done.

I'm not trying to dismiss/flame your build, but it looks like it definitely has a really high skill curve.

EDIT: Just re-read, I see high masters now. What do you think about subbing in blink stalkers instead of pheonixes? Because that way you could keep with a gateway centric army without having to spend money diversifying tech. Also, I think that a 2gate voidray expand would work really well with this build, I'll try this on ladder and post any success/failure I have with it.
Chill: "Please let us know when you will be streaming yourself eating a hat so I can put it on the calendar. Thanks."
Sweetness.751
Profile Joined April 2011
United States225 Posts
June 30 2011 04:45 GMT
#65
On June 30 2011 13:02 MK4512 wrote:
Uh, could I ask what level this is played at? because I can see this being incredibly difficult to execute against a good opponent, but being very effective. If this is versus an opponent who isnt of high caliber, they will be flustered by this kind of harass no matter what it is or how well it is done.

I'm not trying to dismiss/flame your build, but it looks like it definitely has a really high skill curve.

EDIT: Just re-read, I see high masters now. What do you think about subbing in blink stalkers instead of pheonixes? Because that way you could keep with a gateway centric army without having to spend money diversifying tech. Also, I think that a 2gate voidray expand would work really well with this build, I'll try this on ladder and post any success/failure I have with it.



Yes i must say after more tinkering there is no reason not to get the second gas sooner, which will make the composition that much easier to obtain. In addition, I've tried 2gate Stargate and I too believe its a better transition into the phoenix DT build than my 2 gate pressure expand. Plus it still follows the same core beliefs of getting an early void ray to deny third and defend roach/ling aggression.

I have a friend that is doing a DT expand into Stargate Phoenix with great success as well. So either order seems feasible.

Ive found a big key is hiding the Dark Shrine (obvious in hindsight), not so much the Stargate (though still try). Because a dozen drone kills or more can set back the Zerg light years and put you in the drives seat.

I in fact just posted a new replay with my 2gate Stargate opener, that held heavy roach/ling aggression I might add Then transition into Void Ray DT. Was quite effective.
Elentos wrote: Do you think only 10 life points more for Viking is enough bObA wrote: 10 life points is all you need to send someone to the Shadow Realm.
Prev 1 2 3 4 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 43m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Vindicta 193
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 45856
Rain 5957
EffOrt 1544
BeSt 1238
Larva 645
firebathero 441
Stork 378
Mini 336
Rush 230
Light 196
[ Show more ]
PianO 172
Mind 129
Pusan 70
Aegong 58
sSak 57
GoRush 56
JulyZerg 53
sas.Sziky 41
Shinee 39
Movie 37
Noble 25
yabsab 21
scan(afreeca) 16
SilentControl 10
Shine 8
ivOry 5
Bale 4
Terrorterran 3
Dota 2
qojqva3496
Fuzer 220
League of Legends
Dendi1780
Counter-Strike
sgares548
byalli390
Super Smash Bros
amsayoshi39
Other Games
B2W.Neo2813
singsing2148
crisheroes395
Lowko391
DeMusliM387
ArmadaUGS95
Mew2King88
Pyrionflax69
QueenE58
markeloff51
ToD48
Trikslyr28
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick4119
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 4
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1402
League of Legends
• Nemesis2994
• Jankos1341
Upcoming Events
WardiTV European League
1h 43m
ShoWTimE vs sebesdes
Percival vs NightPhoenix
Shameless vs Nicoract
Krystianer vs Scarlett
ByuN vs uThermal
Harstem vs HeRoMaRinE
PiGosaur Monday
9h 43m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 1h
Replay Cast
1d 9h
The PondCast
1d 19h
WardiTV European League
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Epic.LAN
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
Epic.LAN
3 days
[ Show More ]
CSO Contender
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Online Event
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Esports World Cup
6 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Liquipedia Results

Completed

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.