On June 28 2011 00:09 Sweetness.751 wrote:
I'm glad after the initial flaming, that people are starting to consider this a real possibility and not so much of a gimmick. The xDaunt thread is helpful that Zeromus linked to at the top of the page. If you are at all curious as to another few pages on the theory behind the style you can check his thread out as well. He also has replays that can further document the effectiveness to this build.

Think of Terran when they get a Raven go mass cloaked banshees then 1-2 vikings to snipe your obs. People say its gimmicky, yet its almost impossible to save your observer. The only real way to counter it is to get several observers which is a huge gas sink, just like overseers. Thus delaing everything else you are doing.

No one was flaming you. You can't expect to post a strategy here without subjecting it to critical evaluation. That people have seen this in action and think it isn't ideal doesn't mean they are flaming you or your strategy. The best strategies survive because they can weather all of the criticism, all of the scrutiny, and still come out as solid. That's what happened with the Bisu style in BW, but in BW HTs and DTs came from the same building, roaches and banelings didn't exist and scourge didn't kill corsairs the way corruptors kill phoenixes.

Even my initial post, which you considered a "flame," stated that the strategy can work but is probably not ideal. I asked you why you would not choose one early game harass strategy then invest that extra gas in a bigger army as opposed to another harass unit, but instead you took that as flaming. That is not conducive to approaching this forum in a constructive manner.

Sweetness.751

United States225 Posts

June 30 2011 03:45 GMT

#62

On June 26 2011 23:19 Sweetness.751 wrote:
This will be an overall guide as to how to effectively take map control back from the Zerg and dictate the pace of the game once again as Protoss.

*Many people will probably say this is a gimmicky build or style of play and can be easily countered by spore crawlers and good scouting, but I assure you this is far from the truth. In addition my inspiration came from the great BW player Bisu.

Overview:
Bisu came up with the brilliant idea of how to take map control away from the Zerg after Protoss expands to his natural. His idea was to exploit Zerg’s floating supply (overlords) and then abuse their lack of detection to contain his opponent.

Build:
* This is really more of a play style than a build per say, but I will give you the build I have currently been using, as a reference. My opener is a 2 gate pressure expand into Stargate. If you lose this small army, you need to make sure you do damage otherwise you will be behind. I also don’t really believe in following the supply count to place structures and build units, but here is an outline nevertheless.

Phase 1: Opener

(Honestly any opener will do, you can go forge fast expand or the standard 3gate sentry expand. This is the opener I use, it really doesn’t matter how you get to phase 3, just as long as it’s safe and you make it there.)

2gate Expand
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9 Plyon
(scout w/ probe)
14 Gate
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
Cyber Core @ 100 gateway completion
(at roughly 20 food is when lings could appear for a standard pool first build. Hide your probe as you will need it later)
Zealot at 100 minerals
Gateway at 150 minerals
Pylon
Warpgate Research @ 100% cyber core completion
Constantly chrono Warpgate Research
Sentry @ 100 gas
2nd assimilator
2 stalkers @ 100 gas
Proxy pylon by hidden probe
Nexus @ 400 minerals

Push out with your force to pressure Zerg. This push can do a lot of damage. Scout with your proxy probe [very important] to see Zerg’s reaction. If he responds with lings warp in 2 zealots at the proxy; if roaches then warp in 2 stalkers. You don’t need to engage if you feel uncomfortable or outnumbered, but if you do engage you need to deny mining and you need to do damage because once you push into his natural your units will eventually die and you will have very little defending for a counter push. My general rule of thumb is, if you can get in between his mineral line and his hatch relatively unscathed then make the push. Otherwise fall back.

Phase 2: Weathering the Storm

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Immediately begin to sim city your natural. Make a Stargate in your base but near your natural. I usually use a Forge and a 3rd Gateway to wall off my front, however the gateway doesn’t need to be thrown down till after your nexus finishes. Warp in 3rd assimilator so it finishes as Nexus does.
(Constantly chrono workers [unless huge pressure/ all-in is suspected] and warp in Zealots only after you have roughly 4 sentries)
Produce Void Ray immediately @ 100% Stargate completion
Make Twilight Council @ 100 gas.
(Once 3rd assimilator has warped in throw down the 4th assimilator)
@ 100% Void Ray completion, produce Phoenix and constantly do so for the rest of the game.
@ 250 gas surplus and 100% completion of Twilight Council warp in Dark Shrine.

Why the Void Ray?

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There are two reasons for the Void Ray. The first is for early Roach aggression. I’ve found that a high roach count before the DT tech finishes can do a tremendous amount of damage since all you have are zealots and sentries. The Void Ray is a solid solution to this problem, even though you may need to run probes till the roaches are pushed back by the Void Ray, as the zealots and Sentries can more than handle the lings. Ultimately if he is going pure roach he will be in a world of hurt once DT tech finishes. The Void Ray also is a good way to pressure/deny the Zerg’s third while DTs focus on Drones.

Phase 3: Harass to Death

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The Dark Shrine should finish once 2-3 phoenix are out. Reveal your Phoenix while rallying your Void Ray to his suspected 3rd base. Warp in as many DTs as you can afford, 3-4 usually. Make sure you don’t run your DTs into his main/natural without scouting with phoenix to see if he has spores or an overseer.

DTs need to focus on morphing spores and drones while Phoenix focus down Overseers, Queens and Overlords. The Void should be attacking the 3rd. It’s very important to hit his third b4 he can complete spores to defend it.

Once the initial harassment phase starts, take your 3rd base. It the timing is anywhere between the 11-13 minute mark depending on how quickly you rush the build.

With proper unit control you should have complete map control and can now contain the Zerg to 2 bases and 3 at the worst, while expanding quite freely. The Zerg cannot leave the creep and venture far away from his spore crawlers as he will have no detection against a warp in of DTs as the Phoenix can snipe Overseers easily.

Follow up

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Once the third base goes down I recommend making 2 more gateways as your money will pile up otherwise, then a Robo for observers and a warp prism. Produce 3-4 more gateways once your third is saturated while teching to Templar Archives.

If he is still on 2 bases, expect a huge all-in push to just kill you. Use forcefield to defend and snipe the overseer at all costs. Once it is dead, you can warp in a round of DTs and clean up his army.

If he manages to take his third, you should be dropping DTs in his main and warping zealots to assist. Have the DTs/zealots to snipe drones and then expensive tech (a spire would be my first choice, then hydra den). Remember to run your DTs back to your prism to retreat while leaving the zealots behind. Multi-pronged attacks are the name of the game, poking with your main army to his third while doing this is smart as well as lifting queens with Phoenix and sniping overlords/overseers.

Just keep denying bases with the DTs sitting at potential Zerg expos and eventually you will starve him to death. Any time you see an overseer, it should be your Phoenixes’ top priority.

Replays

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Ling/Infestor

Roach/Hydra/Infestor

Roach/Hydra

Ling/Muta

Mass Hydra

Holding Roach/Ling early aggression

Holding Roach/Ling early aggression into Void Ray DT
*A much better example of holding Roach/Ling aggression

I also would like to point out that I have successfully displayed this style vs high master caliber players and this is a micro intensive strategy that requires much APM to execute. I in fact macro horribly during the harass and usually my money piles up, however I gain such a huge advantage that it does not matter.

epikAnglory

United States1120 Posts

June 30 2011 04:01 GMT

#63

I find that a Hydralisk all in after the units are revealed (if the Zerg has a Hydralisk den either prebuilt or from reaction) should be good. I watched the replays, and I feel that if the Zerg just makes about 2-3 Overseers and builds Hydra Ling, he could kill you or deny your third for sure. Most users in here have the mindset of getting killed before the harass, however after can be done as well.

Zealot Sentry? Hydralisk kill. DTs with Overseers? Sad Zeratul. Hydralisks vs Low Phoenix count? Lol

That actually makes sense because it is a reaction, unlike how many sad users in here are saying this can't hold off a Hydralisk drop, which if you do well, most players would not scout your Stargate in time to drop you. That is similar to how people are saying a 6 pool is a counter to 15 Nexus.

MK4512

Canada938 Posts

June 30 2011 04:02 GMT

#64

Uh, could I ask what level this is played at? because I can see this being incredibly difficult to execute against a good opponent, but being very effective. If this is versus an opponent who isnt of high caliber, they will be flustered by this kind of harass no matter what it is or how well it is done.

I'm not trying to dismiss/flame your build, but it looks like it definitely has a really high skill curve.

EDIT: Just re-read, I see high masters now. What do you think about subbing in blink stalkers instead of pheonixes? Because that way you could keep with a gateway centric army without having to spend money diversifying tech. Also, I think that a 2gate voidray expand would work really well with this build, I'll try this on ladder and post any success/failure I have with it.

Sweetness.751

United States225 Posts

June 30 2011 04:45 GMT

#65

On June 30 2011 13:02 MK4512 wrote:
Uh, could I ask what level this is played at? because I can see this being incredibly difficult to execute against a good opponent, but being very effective. If this is versus an opponent who isnt of high caliber, they will be flustered by this kind of harass no matter what it is or how well it is done.

I'm not trying to dismiss/flame your build, but it looks like it definitely has a really high skill curve.

EDIT: Just re-read, I see high masters now. What do you think about subbing in blink stalkers instead of pheonixes? Because that way you could keep with a gateway centric army without having to spend money diversifying tech. Also, I think that a 2gate voidray expand would work really well with this build, I'll try this on ladder and post any success/failure I have with it.

Yes i must say after more tinkering there is no reason not to get the second gas sooner, which will make the composition that much easier to obtain. In addition, I've tried 2gate Stargate and I too believe its a better transition into the phoenix DT build than my 2 gate pressure expand. Plus it still follows the same core beliefs of getting an early void ray to deny third and defend roach/ling aggression.

I have a friend that is doing a DT expand into Stargate Phoenix with great success as well. So either order seems feasible.

Ive found a big key is hiding the Dark Shrine (obvious in hindsight), not so much the Stargate (though still try). Because a dozen drone kills or more can set back the Zerg light years and put you in the drives seat.

I in fact just posted a new replay with my 2gate Stargate opener, that held heavy roach/ling aggression I might add

Then transition into Void Ray DT. Was quite effective.