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EDIT: I will be continuously updating with better replays as time goes on.
This will be an overall guide as to how to effectively take map control back from the Zerg and dictate the pace of the game once again as Protoss.
*Many people will probably say this is a gimmicky build or style of play and can be easily countered by spore crawlers and good scouting, but I assure you this is far from the truth. In addition my inspiration came from the great BW player Bisu.
Overview:
Bisu came up with the brilliant idea of how to take map control away from the Zerg after Protoss expands to his natural. His idea was to exploit Zerg’s floating supply (overlords) and then abuse their lack of detection to contain his opponent.
Build:
* This is really more of a play style than a build per say, but I will give you the build I have currently been using, as a reference. My opener is a 2 gate expand into Stargate. I also don’t really believe in following the supply count to place structures and build units, but here is an outline nevertheless.
Phase 1: Opener
(Honestly any opener will do, you can go forge fast expand or the standard 3gate sentry expand. This is the opener I use, it really doesn’t matter how you get to phase 3, just as long as it’s safe and you make it there.)
2gate Expand
+ Show Spoiler +9 Pylon
(scout w/ probe)
chrono nexus once
13 Gate
chrono nexus
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
Cyber Core @ 100 gateway completion
Assimilator at 75 minerals
(at roughly 20-21 food is when lings could appear for a standard 14 pool build. Hide your probe as you will need it later)
Zealot at 100 minerals
Gateway at 150 minerals
Warpgate Research @ 100% cyber core completion
Constantly chrono Warpgate Research
Sentry @ 100 gas
25 Pylon
2 Sentries @ 100 gas
31 Pylon at base of ramp
Nexus @ 400 minerals
Phase 2: Weathering the Storm
+ Show Spoiler +Immediately begin to sim city your natural. Make a Stargate in your base but near your natural. I usually use a Forge or a 3rd Gateway to wall off my front, however the gateway cant always be used, its there more for safety in case of heavy Zerg pressure.
(Constantly chrono workers [unless huge pressure/ all-in is suspected] and warp in Zealots only after you have roughly 6 sentries)
Produce Void Ray immediately @ 100% Stargate completion (No chrono needed)
Warp in 3rd assimilator just as first Void is finishing as you will be short on minerals not gas.
Get +1 air attack
Stargate should now be chronoed as often as possible
Once the second Void has warped in, throw down the 4th assimilator and a forge (if not already done so)
@ 100% completion of third Void Ray, rally Phoenix and constantly do so till roughly 6-8 are on the field.
Push out and attack Overlords and or units at the watchtowers while flying to the expected Zerg third.
Make 2+ cannons at natural for detection from borrow roach counter attack
Make Twilight Council @ 100 gas.
@ 250 or 200 gas surplus and 100% completion of Twilight Council warp in Dark Shrine or Templar Archives.
Why the Void Rays?
+ Show Spoiler +There are two reasons for the Void Rays. The first is for early Zerg aggression. The Void should warp in at the precise moment that a Zerg may attack with a roach/ling bust. The Void Ray is a solid solution to this problem, even though you may need to run probes and forcefield all of his units away till the roaches are cleaned up by the Void Ray. The Zealots and Sentries can more than handle the lings, however it is recommended that they stay away from the roaches. The Void Ray also is a good way to pressure/deny the Zerg’s third. I personally go up to 3 Void Rays before revealing my Stargate, however I must say that more than 3 just take too many resources away from templar tech.
Phase 3: Harass to Death/Seizing map control
+ Show Spoiler +Reveal your Phoenix while rallying your Void Rays to his suspected 3rd base, and scout his tech. The Dark Shrine should be thrown down if you scout Roach/Ling as HT are not great defense versus Roaches and your Phoenix can prevent an overseer to provide Zerg detection.
The Templar Archives will be needed to defend against mass Hydra/Ling or Infestor/Ling. Once the DT Shrine or the Templar Archives are complete it is safe to take a third.
*Remember if you do a lot of damage with the Stargate, it is highly likely that your opponent will do a strong 2 base push. Be aware of that as you take your third.
If you can not deny his third, then you hopefully forced a lot of spores and killed several queens. If he does not have a third up by this time, use your phoenix again to poke into his main/natural (followed by Void Rays) to do damage there.
Follow up/Late Game
+ Show Spoiler +Once the third base goes down I recommend to continue making additional gateways after you warp in units because you will have a very gateway centric army, A Robo for observers and a warp prism are also highly recommended. Having 10+ gateways on 3bases is not uncommon as Templar/Zealot is very light on the budget.
Get the other Templar tech after third is complete and the budget allows it.
Additional Tactics
+ Show Spoiler +Drops in the main/far away expos are very effective. Use the DTs/zealots to snipe drones and then expensive tech (an Infestation Pit would be my first choice, then Spire [soon to be Greater Spire], then hydra den). Remember to run your DTs back to your prism to retreat while leaving the zealots behind. Multi-pronged attacks are the name of the game, poking with your main army to his third while doing this is smart as well as lifting queens with Phoenix and sniping overlords/overseers.
*One warped in Sentry can forcefield his ramp long enough to kill crucial tech in his main. Food for thought.
A follow up with mass blink Stalker is also a great way to be everywhere he is not, as Phoenix can provide sight to the high ground.
Just keep denying bases with the DTs sitting at potential Zerg expos and eventually you will starve him to death.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +Ling/Infestor ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-217503.jpg) Roach/Hydra/Infestor ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-217501.jpg) Roach/Hydra ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-217499.jpg) Ling/Muta ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-217498.jpg) Mass Hydra ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-217502.jpg) Holding Roach/Ling early aggression ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-217521.jpg)
NEW
oGsMC 3 Void Ray Variation
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-223148.jpg)
I also would like to point out that I have successfully displayed this style vs high master caliber players and this is a micro intensive strategy that requires much APM to execute. I in fact macro horribly during the harass and usually my resources piles up at times.
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Why do you use 2gate expand as opposed to FFE? (Which is what the standard bisu build uses...?)
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Call me stupid, but with standard warp gate timing, I fail to see this 2 gate push doing too much damage, if anything, it will get killed by a blind Roach Ling, or just ling attack.
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This is not new, people have been trying to port the Bisu build in Beta already. You don't really have anything to defend drops and all-ins while you're trying to get DTs out + your phoenix count up.
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On June 26 2011 23:38 ChickenLips wrote:
This is not new, people have been trying to port the Bisu build in Beta already. You don't really have anything to defend drops and all-ins while you're trying to get DTs out + your phoenix count up.
Its not as strong because DT and HT require separate buildings though I think people have tried something that revolves around archon/zealot off DTs. I dunno if the stargate tech really pays for itself though if you do that but it might be worth looking at.
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I encourage people to watch the replays before saying it is a fail. Yes I agree the theory is not new, as Bisu had invented it long ago. However in SC2 I have yet to see a pro try and attempt something similar in a tournament setting, so in that sense one can say it is new.
As for the early push doing damage, yes it can be blindly countered, just like every strategy and build created. However you have the option of pulling back and not attacking just to force the Zerg to make units.
I mentioned in the thread the opening is irrelevant, as long as whatever you do gets you to the final goal. I choose 2gate expand because I believe that having a mobile army as opposed to cannons is much preferred in my eyes.
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I have two questions: What league/points are you in? I have serious doubts with this build after reading the VIod ray section. How can you trust a player who doesn't know how to pronounce a unit..?
And, how do you stay alive to pressure with only 2 gates? Roach/ling would be deadly. Do you have a place in your build to make cannons?
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You can't get DT's so early. Open 1gate fe into 3gate stargate or ffe into stargate or something like that and do the standard void+3-4 phoenix harass. If you can delay his third then start DT (check drone counts with phoenix, be wary of 2base roach hydra allin), but if you can't then transition into blink stalkers to get your third up and then get DT's to shut down their 4th. Soon they will have enough fungal or hydra to keep an overseer alive so you can transition to zealot archon or blink immortal HT archon. you lose if your build revolves around DT, just incorporate it as a tactic or something.
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I watched one of the replays (ling-infestor on metalopolis) and sure I think phoenix/DT harass can win games with other situations operating, but I don't really think the Zerg player did the right fundamental things generally to be in a winning position regardless of what Protoss did. The early push was ineffectual, but I don't really think Zerg did the right follow-up. He knew there was an expo but his 3rd was a little late and his droning was delayed by him making some more zerglings than he needed. He had 2 evos but didn't invest in detection to be safe. He didn't push his advantage with his zerglings in the narrow window where he could have killed probes. Before the phoenixes did anything the DTs were killing drones at the expansions without detection and Protoss had a 20+ harvester advantage.
What about if you played this out against a Zerg player who played those fundamental aspects of the match-up better? Do you still think that phoenix/DT harass can hold off a large zergling/infestor army? What if Zerg scouts better than the Zerg in that game did? He had an overseer, but didn't use it in time and could have scouted both the stargate and the dark shrine. What if he replies by getting corruptors to challenge air control? Do you suicide phoenixes to kill overseers?
I'm not going to say that I think this is not viable, as I think DT harass is insanely good in PvZ because Zerg detection is so expensive as compared to BW, but I think that gas invested in phoenixes would be much better spent in a bigger gateway army.
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Going stargate is likely to induce spore crawlers, so DT's are not a good followup to VR/phoenix
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678 Posts
i played against this only once and i won really easily with infestors. Imo they are a hardcounter as you trade a clump of phoenix for 1 overseer and even then i can use fungal to reveal the dts.
edit: i should add that since you have no real army, i don't need one, and i can dump all the gas on infestors while using the minerals to expand and build spores/spines everywhere.
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On June 27 2011 00:09 Exley wrote:
Going stargate is likely to induce spore crawlers, so DT's are not a good followup to VR/phoenix
DT's purpose is to contain and keep zerg on 2 or 3 bases... read dude...
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wow i cant believe I misspelled the Void Ray every single time, thanks for the catch. I also would like to add that you misspelled it too  I am a newly master level Protoss.
To answer CCalms, yes Stargate Dark Shrine is very viable on 2 bases, check replays as you know the saying "A picture equals 1000 words", and well I have several videos so do the math
For Hypnobean, yes Phoenix DT can easily hold off Ling/Infestor as I have no clue how the Zerg will ever attack since he can't protect his Overseer and mass Chargelots are very strong against the Ling/Infestor combo. Fungals are quite ineffective against Phoenix when Zerg has no Anti-Air. They will waste a lot of energy just killing Phoenix. It almost seems like an even exchange for Toss considering each fungal is the equivalent to a HT storm. Plus Infestors are easy targets for grav lift during major battles.
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On June 27 2011 00:11 CCalms wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 00:09 Exley wrote:
Going stargate is likely to induce spore crawlers, so DT's are not a good followup to VR/phoenix DT's purpose is to contain and keep zerg on 2 or 3 bases... read dude...
Is it 2 or 3 bases? There's a big difference. I don't think any protoss should be happy with 'containing' a zerg to 3 bases on his 2.
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Umm... what?
Any smart Zerg knows that a Toss investing in phoenixes means
1. We might need hydras
2. We need spores because he is denying our scouting, do DTs is a possibility.
3. We need overseers to get to their base faster and scout, which also spot DTs.
If I see your VR and phoenixes, I just throw down a hydra den, and a Ling Hydra push kills you. You have 2 gates... into DTs? Sorry, this is just not going to work
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On June 27 2011 00:19 Sweetness.751 wrote:
For Hypnobean, yes Phoenix DT can easily hold off Ling/Infestor as I have no clue how the Zerg will ever attack since he can't protect his Overseer and mass Chargelots are very strong against the Ling/Infestor combo. Fungals are quite ineffective against Phoenix when Zerg has no Anti-Air. They will waste a lot of energy just killing Phoenix. It almost seems like an even exchange for Toss considering each fungal is the equivalent to a HT storm. Plus Infestors are easy targets for grav lift during major battles.
Theorycraft is theorycraft. I can provide an equally, if not more, plausible narrative of the potential engagement. An infestor zergling army moves to deny a 3rd, a bunch of DTs and phoenixes with chargealots go to defend. A fungal lands on the DTs, they all die to zerglings. All the zealots get surrounded by the much larger number of zerglings (which probably also have better upgrades because of tech choices) and die. The fact remains that such a heavy investment in tech so early accompanied with the 2 gate push you prescribe will put Protoss far behind in army size.
That notwithstanding, infestor ling is best against your standard blink stalker+robotics sort of armies. If as a Zerg player I force Protoss into some unorthodox style heavy on zealots and templar tech, then a switch to getting more roaches or banelings (also great vs. DTs regardless of detection) is elementary. I also think the stronger response to phoenixes is to get a few corruptors as they are difficult for phoenixes to kill and have bigger range. Overseers are quite safe with 3-5 corruptors around, threatening the entire basis of the build. One fungal on a group of phoenixes with a few corruptors around is deadly.
All that isn't to say it can't work, but I think it is very fragile. Small things can go wrong and snowball into outright loss. It seems more solid to invest in either stargate or DT for harass, and then use that to get an advantage for a big gateway and/or robotics based army.
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On June 27 2011 00:22 Exley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 00:11 CCalms wrote:On June 27 2011 00:09 Exley wrote:
Going stargate is likely to induce spore crawlers, so DT's are not a good followup to VR/phoenix DT's purpose is to contain and keep zerg on 2 or 3 bases... read dude... Is it 2 or 3 bases? There's a big difference. I don't think any protoss should be happy with 'containing' a zerg to 3 bases on his 2.
Holy check do I really have to retype my previous post for you :l
As a build, this is pretty bad. As a tactic to follow up a stargate opener, though, it can be very strong. If you are able to deny the zergs third then further denial with DTs can be very strong and will keep your phoenixes relavent while you build up on your own two bases, potentially taking a third before your opponent. Of course, you have to be weary of 2base all-ins.
If you are unable to deny the third then you can take a tech path (blink stalkers) that will allow you to both secure a third, apply pressure, and make the addition of DTs much smoother. This way you can keep the zerg on three bases with no more than 2-3 DTs while you can tech into zealot archon and blink or double robo colo with blink. The zergs ability to expand is going to scale up as base counts increase, but a few DTs with phoenix support can shut it down until infestors are out. Its a very strong tactic to keep your phoenixes busy so they don't end up being a waste of money.
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Yeah you can do a successful harras with this, the issue is getting Phoenixes/DTs without dying.
Since you're teching so fast, you really don't have too many units. And your VR comes to late to stop a Roach/ling all-in.
I can see this working really well in FFE maps, like Shakuras, where you can use Cannons to buy time until you're ready. Otherwise I'm afraid that you're hoping that the Zerg doesn't attack you.
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On June 27 2011 00:38 CCalms wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 00:22 Exley wrote:On June 27 2011 00:11 CCalms wrote:On June 27 2011 00:09 Exley wrote:
Going stargate is likely to induce spore crawlers, so DT's are not a good followup to VR/phoenix DT's purpose is to contain and keep zerg on 2 or 3 bases... read dude... Is it 2 or 3 bases? There's a big difference. I don't think any protoss should be happy with 'containing' a zerg to 3 bases on his 2. Holy check do I really have to retype my previous post for you :l As a build, this is pretty bad. As a tactic to follow up a stargate opener, though, it can be very strong. If you are able to deny the zergs third then further denial with DTs can be very strong and will keep your phoenixes relavent while you build up on your own two bases, potentially taking a third before your opponent. Of course, you have to be weary of 2base all-ins. If you are unable to deny the third then you can take a tech path (blink stalkers) that will allow you to both secure a third, apply pressure, and make the addition of DTs much smoother. This way you can keep the zerg on three bases with no more than 2-3 DTs while you can tech into zealot archon and blink or double robo colo with blink. The zergs ability to expand is going to scale up as base counts increase, but a few DTs with phoenix support can shut it down until infestors are out. Its a very strong tactic to keep your phoenixes busy so they don't end up being a waste of money.
I'm going off the build that the OP produced not anything you said. If you think you have a viable 2-base stargate/dt build you should make your own thread about.
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On June 27 2011 00:34 hypnobean wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 00:19 Sweetness.751 wrote:
For Hypnobean, yes Phoenix DT can easily hold off Ling/Infestor as I have no clue how the Zerg will ever attack since he can't protect his Overseer and mass Chargelots are very strong against the Ling/Infestor combo. Fungals are quite ineffective against Phoenix when Zerg has no Anti-Air. They will waste a lot of energy just killing Phoenix. It almost seems like an even exchange for Toss considering each fungal is the equivalent to a HT storm. Plus Infestors are easy targets for grav lift during major battles. Theorycraft is theorycraft. I can provide an equally, if not more, plausible narrative of the potential engagement. An infestor zergling army moves to deny a 3rd, a bunch of DTs and phoenixes with chargealots go to defend. A fungal lands on the DTs, they all die to zerglings. All the zealots get surrounded by the much larger number of zerglings (which probably also have better upgrades because of tech choices) and die. The fact remains that such a heavy investment in tech so early accompanied with the 2 gate push you prescribe will put Protoss far behind in army size. That notwithstanding, infestor ling is best against your standard blink stalker+robotics sort of armies. If as a Zerg player I force Protoss into some unorthodox style heavy on zealots and templar tech, then a switch to getting more roaches or banelings (also great vs. DTs regardless of detection) is elementary. I also think the stronger response to phoenixes is to get a few corruptors as they are difficult for phoenixes to kill and have bigger range. Overseers are quite safe with 3-5 corruptors around, threatening the entire basis of the build. One fungal on a group of phoenixes with a few corruptors around is deadly. All that isn't to say it can't work, but I think it is very fragile. Small things can go wrong and snowball into outright loss. It seems more solid to invest in either stargate or DT for harass, and then use that to get an advantage for a big gateway and/or robotics based army.
See this is a much better post than your last one. There was no reason to flame my strategy earlier. You have unbiased critique this time that weighs both side. Anything can happen in game, and your arguments are certainly vaild, however I always get cannons against Zerg's Usually 2 at the natural for early aggression and 4 at every expo afterwords. LIngs die quite quickly to cannons, Zealots and good sim citying, I must add. Also Protoss would be on 3 gates and a Stargate b4 the harassment (quite standard), and eventually 5 gates once DT's are out. Then potentially 9 gates when the 3rd is up and running, with HT tech researching. That sounds pretty legit to me. Blink and Charge are available to you depending on what you scout. Ling/Infestor? Zealots with Charge. Ling/Muta? Doesn't really matter, since Phoenix can handle the Mutas. Mass Roach or mass Hydra? Blink is the safer bet for sniping Overseers and getting a general micro advantage.
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EPT
