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EDIT: I will be continuously updating with better replays as time goes on.
This will be an overall guide as to how to effectively take map control back from the Zerg and dictate the pace of the game once again as Protoss.
*Many people will probably say this is a gimmicky build or style of play and can be easily countered by spore crawlers and good scouting, but I assure you this is far from the truth. In addition my inspiration came from the great BW player Bisu.
Overview:
Bisu came up with the brilliant idea of how to take map control away from the Zerg after Protoss expands to his natural. His idea was to exploit Zerg’s floating supply (overlords) and then abuse their lack of detection to contain his opponent.
Build:
* This is really more of a play style than a build per say, but I will give you the build I have currently been using, as a reference. My opener is a 2 gate expand into Stargate. I also don’t really believe in following the supply count to place structures and build units, but here is an outline nevertheless.
Phase 1: Opener
(Honestly any opener will do, you can go forge fast expand or the standard 3gate sentry expand. This is the opener I use, it really doesn’t matter how you get to phase 3, just as long as it’s safe and you make it there.)
2gate Expand
+ Show Spoiler +9 Pylon
(scout w/ probe)
chrono nexus once
13 Gate
chrono nexus
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
Cyber Core @ 100 gateway completion
Assimilator at 75 minerals
(at roughly 20-21 food is when lings could appear for a standard 14 pool build. Hide your probe as you will need it later)
Zealot at 100 minerals
Gateway at 150 minerals
Warpgate Research @ 100% cyber core completion
Constantly chrono Warpgate Research
Sentry @ 100 gas
25 Pylon
2 Sentries @ 100 gas
31 Pylon at base of ramp
Nexus @ 400 minerals
Phase 2: Weathering the Storm
+ Show Spoiler +Immediately begin to sim city your natural. Make a Stargate in your base but near your natural. I usually use a Forge or a 3rd Gateway to wall off my front, however the gateway cant always be used, its there more for safety in case of heavy Zerg pressure.
(Constantly chrono workers [unless huge pressure/ all-in is suspected] and warp in Zealots only after you have roughly 6 sentries)
Produce Void Ray immediately @ 100% Stargate completion (No chrono needed)
Warp in 3rd assimilator just as first Void is finishing as you will be short on minerals not gas.
Get +1 air attack
Stargate should now be chronoed as often as possible
Once the second Void has warped in, throw down the 4th assimilator and a forge (if not already done so)
@ 100% completion of third Void Ray, rally Phoenix and constantly do so till roughly 6-8 are on the field.
Push out and attack Overlords and or units at the watchtowers while flying to the expected Zerg third.
Make 2+ cannons at natural for detection from borrow roach counter attack
Make Twilight Council @ 100 gas.
@ 250 or 200 gas surplus and 100% completion of Twilight Council warp in Dark Shrine or Templar Archives.
Why the Void Rays?
+ Show Spoiler +There are two reasons for the Void Rays. The first is for early Zerg aggression. The Void should warp in at the precise moment that a Zerg may attack with a roach/ling bust. The Void Ray is a solid solution to this problem, even though you may need to run probes and forcefield all of his units away till the roaches are cleaned up by the Void Ray. The Zealots and Sentries can more than handle the lings, however it is recommended that they stay away from the roaches. The Void Ray also is a good way to pressure/deny the Zerg’s third. I personally go up to 3 Void Rays before revealing my Stargate, however I must say that more than 3 just take too many resources away from templar tech.
Phase 3: Harass to Death/Seizing map control
+ Show Spoiler +Reveal your Phoenix while rallying your Void Rays to his suspected 3rd base, and scout his tech. The Dark Shrine should be thrown down if you scout Roach/Ling as HT are not great defense versus Roaches and your Phoenix can prevent an overseer to provide Zerg detection.
The Templar Archives will be needed to defend against mass Hydra/Ling or Infestor/Ling. Once the DT Shrine or the Templar Archives are complete it is safe to take a third.
*Remember if you do a lot of damage with the Stargate, it is highly likely that your opponent will do a strong 2 base push. Be aware of that as you take your third.
If you can not deny his third, then you hopefully forced a lot of spores and killed several queens. If he does not have a third up by this time, use your phoenix again to poke into his main/natural (followed by Void Rays) to do damage there.
Follow up/Late Game
+ Show Spoiler +Once the third base goes down I recommend to continue making additional gateways after you warp in units because you will have a very gateway centric army, A Robo for observers and a warp prism are also highly recommended. Having 10+ gateways on 3bases is not uncommon as Templar/Zealot is very light on the budget.
Get the other Templar tech after third is complete and the budget allows it.
Additional Tactics
+ Show Spoiler +Drops in the main/far away expos are very effective. Use the DTs/zealots to snipe drones and then expensive tech (an Infestation Pit would be my first choice, then Spire [soon to be Greater Spire], then hydra den). Remember to run your DTs back to your prism to retreat while leaving the zealots behind. Multi-pronged attacks are the name of the game, poking with your main army to his third while doing this is smart as well as lifting queens with Phoenix and sniping overlords/overseers.
*One warped in Sentry can forcefield his ramp long enough to kill crucial tech in his main. Food for thought.
A follow up with mass blink Stalker is also a great way to be everywhere he is not, as Phoenix can provide sight to the high ground.
Just keep denying bases with the DTs sitting at potential Zerg expos and eventually you will starve him to death.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +Ling/Infestor ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-217503.jpg) Roach/Hydra/Infestor ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-217501.jpg) Roach/Hydra ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-217499.jpg) Ling/Muta ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-217498.jpg) Mass Hydra ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-217502.jpg) Holding Roach/Ling early aggression ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-217521.jpg)
NEW
oGsMC 3 Void Ray Variation
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-223148.jpg)
I also would like to point out that I have successfully displayed this style vs high master caliber players and this is a micro intensive strategy that requires much APM to execute. I in fact macro horribly during the harass and usually my resources piles up at times.
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Why do you use 2gate expand as opposed to FFE? (Which is what the standard bisu build uses...?)
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Call me stupid, but with standard warp gate timing, I fail to see this 2 gate push doing too much damage, if anything, it will get killed by a blind Roach Ling, or just ling attack.
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This is not new, people have been trying to port the Bisu build in Beta already. You don't really have anything to defend drops and all-ins while you're trying to get DTs out + your phoenix count up.
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On June 26 2011 23:38 ChickenLips wrote:
This is not new, people have been trying to port the Bisu build in Beta already. You don't really have anything to defend drops and all-ins while you're trying to get DTs out + your phoenix count up.
Its not as strong because DT and HT require separate buildings though I think people have tried something that revolves around archon/zealot off DTs. I dunno if the stargate tech really pays for itself though if you do that but it might be worth looking at.
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I encourage people to watch the replays before saying it is a fail. Yes I agree the theory is not new, as Bisu had invented it long ago. However in SC2 I have yet to see a pro try and attempt something similar in a tournament setting, so in that sense one can say it is new.
As for the early push doing damage, yes it can be blindly countered, just like every strategy and build created. However you have the option of pulling back and not attacking just to force the Zerg to make units.
I mentioned in the thread the opening is irrelevant, as long as whatever you do gets you to the final goal. I choose 2gate expand because I believe that having a mobile army as opposed to cannons is much preferred in my eyes.
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I have two questions: What league/points are you in? I have serious doubts with this build after reading the VIod ray section. How can you trust a player who doesn't know how to pronounce a unit..?
And, how do you stay alive to pressure with only 2 gates? Roach/ling would be deadly. Do you have a place in your build to make cannons?
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You can't get DT's so early. Open 1gate fe into 3gate stargate or ffe into stargate or something like that and do the standard void+3-4 phoenix harass. If you can delay his third then start DT (check drone counts with phoenix, be wary of 2base roach hydra allin), but if you can't then transition into blink stalkers to get your third up and then get DT's to shut down their 4th. Soon they will have enough fungal or hydra to keep an overseer alive so you can transition to zealot archon or blink immortal HT archon. you lose if your build revolves around DT, just incorporate it as a tactic or something.
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I watched one of the replays (ling-infestor on metalopolis) and sure I think phoenix/DT harass can win games with other situations operating, but I don't really think the Zerg player did the right fundamental things generally to be in a winning position regardless of what Protoss did. The early push was ineffectual, but I don't really think Zerg did the right follow-up. He knew there was an expo but his 3rd was a little late and his droning was delayed by him making some more zerglings than he needed. He had 2 evos but didn't invest in detection to be safe. He didn't push his advantage with his zerglings in the narrow window where he could have killed probes. Before the phoenixes did anything the DTs were killing drones at the expansions without detection and Protoss had a 20+ harvester advantage.
What about if you played this out against a Zerg player who played those fundamental aspects of the match-up better? Do you still think that phoenix/DT harass can hold off a large zergling/infestor army? What if Zerg scouts better than the Zerg in that game did? He had an overseer, but didn't use it in time and could have scouted both the stargate and the dark shrine. What if he replies by getting corruptors to challenge air control? Do you suicide phoenixes to kill overseers?
I'm not going to say that I think this is not viable, as I think DT harass is insanely good in PvZ because Zerg detection is so expensive as compared to BW, but I think that gas invested in phoenixes would be much better spent in a bigger gateway army.
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Going stargate is likely to induce spore crawlers, so DT's are not a good followup to VR/phoenix
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i played against this only once and i won really easily with infestors. Imo they are a hardcounter as you trade a clump of phoenix for 1 overseer and even then i can use fungal to reveal the dts.
edit: i should add that since you have no real army, i don't need one, and i can dump all the gas on infestors while using the minerals to expand and build spores/spines everywhere.
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On June 27 2011 00:09 Exley wrote:
Going stargate is likely to induce spore crawlers, so DT's are not a good followup to VR/phoenix
DT's purpose is to contain and keep zerg on 2 or 3 bases... read dude...
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wow i cant believe I misspelled the Void Ray every single time, thanks for the catch. I also would like to add that you misspelled it too  I am a newly master level Protoss.
To answer CCalms, yes Stargate Dark Shrine is very viable on 2 bases, check replays as you know the saying "A picture equals 1000 words", and well I have several videos so do the math
For Hypnobean, yes Phoenix DT can easily hold off Ling/Infestor as I have no clue how the Zerg will ever attack since he can't protect his Overseer and mass Chargelots are very strong against the Ling/Infestor combo. Fungals are quite ineffective against Phoenix when Zerg has no Anti-Air. They will waste a lot of energy just killing Phoenix. It almost seems like an even exchange for Toss considering each fungal is the equivalent to a HT storm. Plus Infestors are easy targets for grav lift during major battles.
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On June 27 2011 00:11 CCalms wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 00:09 Exley wrote:
Going stargate is likely to induce spore crawlers, so DT's are not a good followup to VR/phoenix DT's purpose is to contain and keep zerg on 2 or 3 bases... read dude...
Is it 2 or 3 bases? There's a big difference. I don't think any protoss should be happy with 'containing' a zerg to 3 bases on his 2.
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Umm... what?
Any smart Zerg knows that a Toss investing in phoenixes means
1. We might need hydras
2. We need spores because he is denying our scouting, do DTs is a possibility.
3. We need overseers to get to their base faster and scout, which also spot DTs.
If I see your VR and phoenixes, I just throw down a hydra den, and a Ling Hydra push kills you. You have 2 gates... into DTs? Sorry, this is just not going to work
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On June 27 2011 00:19 Sweetness.751 wrote:
For Hypnobean, yes Phoenix DT can easily hold off Ling/Infestor as I have no clue how the Zerg will ever attack since he can't protect his Overseer and mass Chargelots are very strong against the Ling/Infestor combo. Fungals are quite ineffective against Phoenix when Zerg has no Anti-Air. They will waste a lot of energy just killing Phoenix. It almost seems like an even exchange for Toss considering each fungal is the equivalent to a HT storm. Plus Infestors are easy targets for grav lift during major battles.
Theorycraft is theorycraft. I can provide an equally, if not more, plausible narrative of the potential engagement. An infestor zergling army moves to deny a 3rd, a bunch of DTs and phoenixes with chargealots go to defend. A fungal lands on the DTs, they all die to zerglings. All the zealots get surrounded by the much larger number of zerglings (which probably also have better upgrades because of tech choices) and die. The fact remains that such a heavy investment in tech so early accompanied with the 2 gate push you prescribe will put Protoss far behind in army size.
That notwithstanding, infestor ling is best against your standard blink stalker+robotics sort of armies. If as a Zerg player I force Protoss into some unorthodox style heavy on zealots and templar tech, then a switch to getting more roaches or banelings (also great vs. DTs regardless of detection) is elementary. I also think the stronger response to phoenixes is to get a few corruptors as they are difficult for phoenixes to kill and have bigger range. Overseers are quite safe with 3-5 corruptors around, threatening the entire basis of the build. One fungal on a group of phoenixes with a few corruptors around is deadly.
All that isn't to say it can't work, but I think it is very fragile. Small things can go wrong and snowball into outright loss. It seems more solid to invest in either stargate or DT for harass, and then use that to get an advantage for a big gateway and/or robotics based army.
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On June 27 2011 00:22 Exley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 00:11 CCalms wrote:On June 27 2011 00:09 Exley wrote:
Going stargate is likely to induce spore crawlers, so DT's are not a good followup to VR/phoenix DT's purpose is to contain and keep zerg on 2 or 3 bases... read dude... Is it 2 or 3 bases? There's a big difference. I don't think any protoss should be happy with 'containing' a zerg to 3 bases on his 2.
Holy check do I really have to retype my previous post for you :l
As a build, this is pretty bad. As a tactic to follow up a stargate opener, though, it can be very strong. If you are able to deny the zergs third then further denial with DTs can be very strong and will keep your phoenixes relavent while you build up on your own two bases, potentially taking a third before your opponent. Of course, you have to be weary of 2base all-ins.
If you are unable to deny the third then you can take a tech path (blink stalkers) that will allow you to both secure a third, apply pressure, and make the addition of DTs much smoother. This way you can keep the zerg on three bases with no more than 2-3 DTs while you can tech into zealot archon and blink or double robo colo with blink. The zergs ability to expand is going to scale up as base counts increase, but a few DTs with phoenix support can shut it down until infestors are out. Its a very strong tactic to keep your phoenixes busy so they don't end up being a waste of money.
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Yeah you can do a successful harras with this, the issue is getting Phoenixes/DTs without dying.
Since you're teching so fast, you really don't have too many units. And your VR comes to late to stop a Roach/ling all-in.
I can see this working really well in FFE maps, like Shakuras, where you can use Cannons to buy time until you're ready. Otherwise I'm afraid that you're hoping that the Zerg doesn't attack you.
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On June 27 2011 00:38 CCalms wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 00:22 Exley wrote:On June 27 2011 00:11 CCalms wrote:On June 27 2011 00:09 Exley wrote:
Going stargate is likely to induce spore crawlers, so DT's are not a good followup to VR/phoenix DT's purpose is to contain and keep zerg on 2 or 3 bases... read dude... Is it 2 or 3 bases? There's a big difference. I don't think any protoss should be happy with 'containing' a zerg to 3 bases on his 2. Holy check do I really have to retype my previous post for you :l As a build, this is pretty bad. As a tactic to follow up a stargate opener, though, it can be very strong. If you are able to deny the zergs third then further denial with DTs can be very strong and will keep your phoenixes relavent while you build up on your own two bases, potentially taking a third before your opponent. Of course, you have to be weary of 2base all-ins. If you are unable to deny the third then you can take a tech path (blink stalkers) that will allow you to both secure a third, apply pressure, and make the addition of DTs much smoother. This way you can keep the zerg on three bases with no more than 2-3 DTs while you can tech into zealot archon and blink or double robo colo with blink. The zergs ability to expand is going to scale up as base counts increase, but a few DTs with phoenix support can shut it down until infestors are out. Its a very strong tactic to keep your phoenixes busy so they don't end up being a waste of money.
I'm going off the build that the OP produced not anything you said. If you think you have a viable 2-base stargate/dt build you should make your own thread about.
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On June 27 2011 00:34 hypnobean wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 00:19 Sweetness.751 wrote:
For Hypnobean, yes Phoenix DT can easily hold off Ling/Infestor as I have no clue how the Zerg will ever attack since he can't protect his Overseer and mass Chargelots are very strong against the Ling/Infestor combo. Fungals are quite ineffective against Phoenix when Zerg has no Anti-Air. They will waste a lot of energy just killing Phoenix. It almost seems like an even exchange for Toss considering each fungal is the equivalent to a HT storm. Plus Infestors are easy targets for grav lift during major battles. Theorycraft is theorycraft. I can provide an equally, if not more, plausible narrative of the potential engagement. An infestor zergling army moves to deny a 3rd, a bunch of DTs and phoenixes with chargealots go to defend. A fungal lands on the DTs, they all die to zerglings. All the zealots get surrounded by the much larger number of zerglings (which probably also have better upgrades because of tech choices) and die. The fact remains that such a heavy investment in tech so early accompanied with the 2 gate push you prescribe will put Protoss far behind in army size. That notwithstanding, infestor ling is best against your standard blink stalker+robotics sort of armies. If as a Zerg player I force Protoss into some unorthodox style heavy on zealots and templar tech, then a switch to getting more roaches or banelings (also great vs. DTs regardless of detection) is elementary. I also think the stronger response to phoenixes is to get a few corruptors as they are difficult for phoenixes to kill and have bigger range. Overseers are quite safe with 3-5 corruptors around, threatening the entire basis of the build. One fungal on a group of phoenixes with a few corruptors around is deadly. All that isn't to say it can't work, but I think it is very fragile. Small things can go wrong and snowball into outright loss. It seems more solid to invest in either stargate or DT for harass, and then use that to get an advantage for a big gateway and/or robotics based army.
See this is a much better post than your last one. There was no reason to flame my strategy earlier. You have unbiased critique this time that weighs both side. Anything can happen in game, and your arguments are certainly vaild, however I always get cannons against Zerg's Usually 2 at the natural for early aggression and 4 at every expo afterwords. LIngs die quite quickly to cannons, Zealots and good sim citying, I must add. Also Protoss would be on 3 gates and a Stargate b4 the harassment (quite standard), and eventually 5 gates once DT's are out. Then potentially 9 gates when the 3rd is up and running, with HT tech researching. That sounds pretty legit to me. Blink and Charge are available to you depending on what you scout. Ling/Infestor? Zealots with Charge. Ling/Muta? Doesn't really matter, since Phoenix can handle the Mutas. Mass Roach or mass Hydra? Blink is the safer bet for sniping Overseers and getting a general micro advantage.
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I've been toying around with a similar strategy for awhile- it uses a mothership instead of DTs however.
The issue I've had, and you might also encounter, is if zerg goes spire tech, and gets a bunch of corrupters to protect his overseers?
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I hate to say it, but... I watched the "early ling/roach pressure" one, and there was no pressure on you. He didn't get his Roach Warren until ~7-8 minutes into the game... not very early. I like the idea, though, and sniping his overlords was pretty fun.
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2 Base Hydra bust will end this build. If I scout more than 4 Phoenix from you, I'm making a lot of Hydras.
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this build works in diamond, not in master.... what is a "2 gate push" dealing dmg... also u clearly hvnt heard of unit called "infestor".
joking aside 3rd queen + overseer = infinite transfusion -> sup?
how you gona hold hydra highway push if they make more than 1 overseer?
more than half of GM and most of high master played/followed BW in the past and you think we havent tried this since beta phase 1? lolol
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The main problem i have with this build is the 2gate push supposedly doing any damage. If toss 3 gate expand and cant pushout i am at a loss as to how a 2 gate expand push is going to do anything but get you killed.
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does not seem to be very good to me. I've played zerg and when I saw a phoenix I played spore crawlers, which are detectors. so if you do this you either have to kill the spores or dont reveal your phoenix
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I was actually thinking about this the other day, and how the Void rays really help this style (at least from the P's side compared to BW) and how in SC1 you had Hydras early but now in SC2 Roaches obviously can't hit air.
I think this could actually be more effective than the style was in SC1 :D
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Unless you guys are critiquing the build after analyzing the replays or after testing the build don't even bother posting anything such as, "I make hydralisk and spore trolololo." Instead if you see a flaw say something that can improve the build instead of saying "X beats this, therefore this build is invalid and will never work." I personally don't like the 2 gate build I find the transition from a forge fast expansion to a stargate much much easier and smooth. Then again, it's hard to FFE on some maps, so perhaps the MC style 1 gate FE into 3 gate stargate would be a more effective way to transition than a 2 gate expansion.
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My problem with this is that it costs a ridiculous amount of gas, and it does literally nothing but deny a third against a good player. If they just reflexively do a hydraling or roach/hydra push, I'm not sure you can hold it (and your replays where they got hydras all show people who lost the game when their all-in failed, that proves nothing).
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On June 27 2011 03:02 Frequencyy wrote:
All you guys are complete theory crafters, you simply say "Oh Hydralisks, gg" Well the OP has actually tested this build and says it has worked against masters level people so unless you're testing this build yourself you should not critique it so hard, the reason new builds are never explored is because of arrogance and the unwillingness to except anything that is not the norm, so test the build yourself or get out the thread.
His actual replays involving hydras involve zergs failing at doing an all-in, and then clearly having no idea what the fuck (one of them just straight out died to DTs in his mineral line). There are plenty of players who get to masters by all-inning well, that doesn't really demonstrate this build being effective.
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On June 27 2011 03:10 Amarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 03:02 Frequencyy wrote:
All you guys are complete theory crafters, you simply say "Oh Hydralisks, gg" Well the OP has actually tested this build and says it has worked against masters level people so unless you're testing this build yourself you should not critique it so hard, the reason new builds are never explored is because of arrogance and the unwillingness to except anything that is not the norm, so test the build yourself or get out the thread. His actual replays involving hydras involve zergs failing at doing an all-in, and then clearly having no idea what the fuck (one of them just straight out died to DTs in his mineral line). There are plenty of players who get to masters by all-inning well, that doesn't really demonstrate this build being effective.
Note I revised that post above, did not come out the way I wanted it to. If zerg makes a mistake doing an all-in then that's just part of the game, mistakes will happen and that's simply part of the game.
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I'd like some replays against players that are high master/grand master that know your doing this strategy, if you can still win with it I will test it out and post my thoughts.
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I am not going to comment on the particular strategy, except that I think it will lose really badly to a roach/hydra 2 base.
Here's my 2 cents: People really shouldn't post strategies that say this.
(Honestly any opener will do, you can go forge fast expand or the standard 3gate sentry expand. This is the opener I use, it really doesn’t matter how you get to phase 3, just as long as it’s safe and you make it there.)
Why? Because at higher levels, it's just false. For such a cutesy mid-game plan, you're really going to need to hit key timings to shut down expansions and still be able to hold various aggressive builds, and I don't see why I should believe that you can accomplish this with any possible safe opening.
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On June 27 2011 00:58 Sweetness.751 wrote:
See this is a much better post than your last one. There was no reason to flame my strategy earlier. You have unbiased critique this time that weighs both side. Anything can happen in game, and your arguments are certainly vaild, however I always get cannons against Zerg's Usually 2 at the natural for early aggression and 4 at every expo afterwords. LIngs die quite quickly to cannons, Zealots and good sim citying, I must add. Also Protoss would be on 3 gates and a Stargate b4 the harassment (quite standard), and eventually 5 gates once DT's are out. Then potentially 9 gates when the 3rd is up and running, with HT tech researching. That sounds pretty legit to me. Blink and Charge are available to you depending on what you scout. Ling/Infestor? Zealots with Charge. Ling/Muta? Doesn't really matter, since Phoenix can handle the Mutas. Mass Roach or mass Hydra? Blink is the safer bet for sniping Overseers and getting a general micro advantage.
I reread my earlier post and don't see how it was a flame. I just offered my response to one of your games, which is what you requested.
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I had someone attempt to do this to me the other day. I'll see if I can find the replay.
It appeared as though they were going a stargate exand, and he went to deny my 3rd with void ray/phoenix but I had enough queens to drive them away.
My normal ZvP is ling/infestor so my infestor tech was on the way. When he revealed exactly how many phoenix he had (and an additional void ray) I dropped a Hydra den.
I managed to catch his air in a fungal and killed them.
His DTs caught me incredibly offguard and he managed to take my 3rd down since it had low heath.
I fungaled every DT and killed them.
Then I went for a ling/hydra/infestor push with 5 infestors 8-12ish Hydras and speedlings (with+2 at this point I believe)
He had a handful of gateway units and 1 archon at his base since I killed all of his harassing units.
Either way I could not see this style of play doing well against infestor play and standard play is leaning towards infestors at the moment.
Phoenix do not snipe Overseers very quickly and the combination of infestors and hydralisks shut it down terribly.
Even though I was caught offguard by his DTs all I had to do was A move, any infestor micro was unnecessary I can't see this working at a high level.
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On June 27 2011 01:32 denzelz wrote:
2 Base Hydra bust will end this build. If I scout more than 4 Phoenix from you, I'm making a lot of Hydras.
then he scouts your hydras and does colossus instead of dt and you lose.
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On June 27 2011 06:41 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 01:32 denzelz wrote:
2 Base Hydra bust will end this build. If I scout more than 4 Phoenix from you, I'm making a lot of Hydras. then he scouts your hydras and does colossus instead of dt and you lose.
So you're going to go down literally every tech path and get 2 colossi out by the time the hydra push comes? Yeah... that won't happen in a real game. You'd be lucky to get out a single colossus if you're doing that as a transition from intended DTs.
Of course, you could just skip DTs entirely and go colossi, assuming that he's going to get hydras as a response to phoenixes. Congrats, you've rediscovered standard protoss air play!
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On June 26 2011 23:55 Sweetness.751 wrote:
I encourage people to watch the replays before saying it is a fail. Yes I agree the theory is not new, as Bisu had invented it long ago. However in SC2 I have yet to see a pro try and attempt something similar in a tournament setting, so in that sense one can say it is new.
As for the early push doing damage, yes it can be blindly countered, just like every strategy and build created. However you have the option of pulling back and not attacking just to force the Zerg to make units.
I mentioned in the thread the opening is irrelevant, as long as whatever you do gets you to the final goal. I choose 2gate expand because I believe that having a mobile army as opposed to cannons is much preferred in my eyes.
I love to 2 gate Zergs playing an early macro game by 2 gating them on close positions a lot of maps. The pressure of making them make units, and killing maybe 1-2 drones is enough damage. You of course just have to be really careful with your Zealots because you have so few and its early in the game. Its a very micro oriented style of play that I like a lot. Like you said it provides you with mobility that cannons cannot, which gives you map presence against the Zerg. So if you can micro your units well, while powering like crazy at home, it can be truly awesome. You make the Zerg feel like a Protoss for once, trapped inside their base with no where to run. The key is not losing too many zealots while doing efficient damage, and getting that 2nd base up sooner, and powering well enough behind it. I've lost a few games doing this just because my zealots get a little out of position.
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On June 27 2011 03:24 PJA wrote:I am not going to comment on the particular strategy, except that I think it will lose really badly to a roach/hydra 2 base. Here's my 2 cents: People really shouldn't post strategies that say this. Show nested quote + (Honestly any opener will do, you can go forge fast expand or the standard 3gate sentry expand. This is the opener I use, it really doesn’t matter how you get to phase 3, just as long as it’s safe and you make it there.) Why? Because at higher levels, it's just false. For such a cutesy mid-game plan, you're really going to need to hit key timings to shut down expansions and still be able to hold various aggressive builds, and I don't see why I should believe that you can accomplish this with any possible safe opening.
I dont think the intention was to bring a completely polished build to the community. I think the overall usefulness of this thread lies in the idea behind pressuring with the DTs simultaneous with the phoenix harass and not just one before the other. The build is not refined and neither is his play (not adding additional gateways timely in any game). What I saw from the replays was the ability for you, as protoss, to take a safer third. I dont think JUST phoenix or JUST DT would do that on their own, but the combination of both really makes attacking the last thing on their mind it seems.
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DT + Phoenix cost gas.
Zealots (the money sink) is useless against Z. In BW you could follow up with some speed +1 lots and then add HT. You need another building for the HT's aswell in SC2. I've tried variations of this build a lot in SC2, never really gotten it to work. I would love to be proven wrong though.
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Thank you for the guide.
What are the advantages of using Stargate tech over blink stalkers to hunt overseers and complement the DT harras?
I think blink stalkers can only harass efectively a bit later than air tech, and it is harder to kill overseers, but blink feels like a safer follow-up strategy as you are alligned to upgrades and not so vulnerable to a 2-base hydra/ling bust.
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Canada13386 Posts
digging up an old thread by xDaunt wherein he outlines a PvZ opening that goes into pheonix DT style play but with more of a long term goal and more well thought out. Though the metagame was SUPER different at the time where rushing to mutalisks was very very popular. Z would go 2 base mutas into harass and then sometimes double expand behind it and drone thanks to the map control they had.
Edit ... Forgot the link it is below
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=149170
oh and please please please do not necro it asking xDaunt questions I havent really seen him around (he is in the LoL forum so I assume he focuses on that game now) so read, play with it then make a good post that make necroing the thread legitimate and worthwhile IF you necro it at ALL (which you probably shouldnt unless you are very very good at the game and can make some Serious contributions to the opening)
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On June 27 2011 06:31 Bladeorade wrote:
I had someone attempt to do this to me the other day. I'll see if I can find the replay.
It appeared as though they were going a stargate exand, and he went to deny my 3rd with void ray/phoenix but I had enough queens to drive them away.
My normal ZvP is ling/infestor so my infestor tech was on the way. When he revealed exactly how many phoenix he had (and an additional void ray) I dropped a Hydra den.
I managed to catch his air in a fungal and killed them.
His DTs caught me incredibly offguard and he managed to take my 3rd down since it had low heath.
I fungaled every DT and killed them.
Then I went for a ling/hydra/infestor push with 5 infestors 8-12ish Hydras and speedlings (with+2 at this point I believe)
He had a handful of gateway units and 1 archon at his base since I killed all of his harassing units.
Either way I could not see this style of play doing well against infestor play and standard play is leaning towards infestors at the moment.
Phoenix do not snipe Overseers very quickly and the combination of infestors and hydralisks shut it down terribly.
Even though I was caught offguard by his DTs all I had to do was A move, any infestor micro was unnecessary I can't see this working at a high level.
You shouldn't be able to fungal a bunch of clumped DTs. If used properly, DTs are spread out individually, not all holding hands.
Before I had to stop playing, I too started to work some sort of bisu-esque build out. Air + DT does work really well, because it allows you to get all of your tech out and infrastructure up due to the amount of time it buys you. It doesn't work on every map, and you need some distance, because the only thing that gives it trouble is the same thing that gave it trouble in broodwar: Super mega hydra bust all-in (and of course, if they are doing some insane 19 drone 8roach/ling all-in just spam cannons and make sentries). If you are active enough with your air units, you will be able to see a hydra bust coming.
Infestors really aren't a problem, because you can beat an infestor with micro (like the OP said, this is a very micro-intensive playstyle that requires a lot of multitask). Infestors are also not an aggressive attack/harass unit against protoss in the early and mid game, but rather defensive 'omg I need to stay alive right now' units. That's great! You don't want zerg to be making things like lots of speed roaches to come kill you. By the time zerg has his 74 drones and is starting to make units, we are starting to kill his drones. With good micro/multitask, you CAN kill drones off, and bring the count to about even. Now that your economies are relatively even, you have full tech and the same economy, with them likely pumping a lair tech army. That sounds like a scary pvz scenario for zerg.
DT follow-up to your air opener retains your map control long enough to keep zerg from comfortably being on his 3 bases (impossible to get a 4th if done right), much less moving out for an attack. Once you have all of your tech out ready to make your 2 base push, you can take your 3rd, just like in broodwar. Keep all of your harass units active and busy on their side of the map to keep them there. Try not to lose phoenixes! They are not Japanese kamakazi pilots! Retain your phoenix count as best you can. It takes a lot of concentration and multitask, but they are very powerful units. The difference between a normal corsair and a Bisu corsair, is that Bisu's are always moving around doing something, and he doesn't let them get killed, albeit much harder in BW with scourge hovering around.
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On June 27 2011 09:19 ZeromuS wrote:digging up an old thread by xDaunt wherein he outlines a PvZ opening that goes into pheonix DT style play but with more of a long term goal and more well thought out. Though the metagame was SUPER different at the time where rushing to mutalisks was very very popular. Z would go 2 base mutas into harass and then sometimes double expand behind it and drone thanks to the map control they had. Edit ... Forgot the link it is below http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=149170oh and please please please do not necro it asking xDaunt questions I havent really seen him around (he is in the LoL forum so I assume he focuses on that game now) so read, play with it then make a good post that make necroing the thread legitimate and worthwhile IF you necro it at ALL (which you probably shouldnt unless you are very very good at the game and can make some Serious contributions to the opening)
xdaunts build is alot different from this. His is either/or Stargate or TC rather than DT/phoenix at the same time. His was more of an overall game plan.. a complete plan. I used to love using his build but the matchup was totally different at that time... the zergs were worse, corruptors still had mana pool, HTs still had amulet, 4 gate was still giving zergs trouble...
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Canada13386 Posts
On June 27 2011 09:43 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 09:19 ZeromuS wrote:digging up an old thread by xDaunt wherein he outlines a PvZ opening that goes into pheonix DT style play but with more of a long term goal and more well thought out. Though the metagame was SUPER different at the time where rushing to mutalisks was very very popular. Z would go 2 base mutas into harass and then sometimes double expand behind it and drone thanks to the map control they had. Edit ... Forgot the link it is below http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=149170oh and please please please do not necro it asking xDaunt questions I havent really seen him around (he is in the LoL forum so I assume he focuses on that game now) so read, play with it then make a good post that make necroing the thread legitimate and worthwhile IF you necro it at ALL (which you probably shouldnt unless you are very very good at the game and can make some Serious contributions to the opening) xdaunts build is alot different from this. His is either/or Stargate or TC rather than DT/phoenix at the same time. His was more of an overall game plan.. a complete plan. I used to love using his build but the matchup was totally different at that time... the zergs were worse, corruptors still had mana pool, HTs still had amulet, 4 gate was still giving zergs trouble...
xDaunts build/plan in the midgame provides phoenix as a way of denying overseers (or forcing many overseers - delaying Z tech) allowing the DTs to shut down scouting and denying bases where spores arent up (no creep spread). So eventually you do have pheonix and DT working together as well as more viable transitions. Sure corruptors have no mana now but if you transition into blink stalker/HT/Archon you wont really need air units so who cares about corruptors really
So while I know it is different the same kind of end goal is similar. Using Pheonix to help remove the overseer so that DTs could do more damage. I just feel that this is a safer and better way of achieving three related goals
1) map control in the early mid game
2) Getting DTs while being able to defend early attacks
3) being able to deny the Zerg any ability to detect DTs away from their base UNTIL they get Hydras to kill the pheonix allowing the overseers to survive
So in a sense I feel taking some lessons from the older xDaunt build and looking at the ideas in this thread can help us make a build that is viable right now. Personally Im having fun with the Forge FE into blink stalker/DT that HuK uses and that Day 9 talked about in a daily. I've been using it a bit and getting decent results as of now and that is with poor execution and at diamond level 
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edit: woops wrong thread sorry
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On June 26 2011 23:55 Sweetness.751 wrote:
I encourage people to watch the replays before saying it is a fail. Yes I agree the theory is not new, as Bisu had invented it long ago. However in SC2 I have yet to see a pro try and attempt something similar in a tournament setting, so in that sense one can say it is new.
As for the early push doing damage, yes it can be blindly countered, just like every strategy and build created. However you have the option of pulling back and not attacking just to force the Zerg to make units.
I mentioned in the thread the opening is irrelevant, as long as whatever you do gets you to the final goal. I choose 2gate expand because I believe that having a mobile army as opposed to cannons is much preferred in my eyes.
I believe i've seen incontroll do this once.
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Wow; this seems like a really interesting build to try on ladder, seems really unorthadox and would take alot of zergs offguard. Especially on a friend who insists on going muta/ling against me it should work quite well.
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If I remember right there already was a thread about this. Long time ago tho.
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I'm glad after the initial flaming, that people are starting to consider this a real possibility and not so much of a gimmick. The xDaunt thread is helpful that Zeromus linked to at the top of the page. If you are at all curious as to another few pages on the theory behind the style you can check his thread out as well. He also has replays that can further document the effectiveness to this build.
Think of Terran when they get a Raven go mass cloaked banshees then 1-2 vikings to snipe your obs. People say its gimmicky, yet its almost impossible to save your observer. The only real way to counter it is to get several observers which is a huge gas sink, just like overseers. Thus delaing everything else you are doing.
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On June 27 2011 09:03 lucasesper wrote:
Thank you for the guide.
What are the advantages of using Stargate tech over blink stalkers to hunt overseers and complement the DT harras?
I think blink stalkers can only harass efectively a bit later than air tech, and it is harder to kill overseers, but blink feels like a safer follow-up strategy as you are alligned to upgrades and not so vulnerable to a 2-base hydra/ling bust.
Stargate tech is more mobile in my opinion. They can hunt overlords that are over cliffs and hovering above groundless areas of the map. Also phoenix are faster than Mutas and are a good deterrent to Zerg's getting Mutas. Phoenix can scout much better than blink stalkers and can only be targeted by a handful of units (ie. Hydras, Corruptors, Mutas, Queens) thus means they can assist the DTs behind enemy lines without risking their own lives.
Though people wont admit it. Blink Stalkers are are very expensive. You wont be able to support more than 3-4 gates worth of blink Stalkers on 2 bases and still get DT's into the fray. However with 1 early Stargate, 100 gas for a Phoenix every 35ish seconds (depending on chrono), does not nearly deplete your gas reserves. And again what is the Zerg going to do when he sees your Phoenix harass? Send his slow Hydras off creep to save his new expansion? Or how about those corruptors that are slower and supposedly counter the Phoenix? Have you actually seen a Corruptor fight a Phoenix? Its an even trade, and you can run at any time.
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On June 27 2011 08:49 OminouS wrote:
DT + Phoenix cost gas.
Zealots (the money sink) is useless against Z. In BW you could follow up with some speed +1 lots and then add HT. You need another building for the HT's aswell in SC2. I've tried variations of this build a lot in SC2, never really gotten it to work. I would love to be proven wrong though.
And what exactly is wrong with +1 chargelots, exactly? Why is it "bad" in SC2? Void rays + air control makes the 'standard response' to mass gateway (roach/hydra, which are roughly equivalent but have range instead of charge, but do LESS dps) cause the zerg to cede map control. Holding map control with hydras against enemy air? What? I think a lot of protosses would happily fight a heavy roach hydra composition with whatever tech - (ideally zealot templar with DT/archon/stargate support, in this case.)
Is it that scary to not go robo these days? Is templar tech really that bad? Look at how bad hydras fare against storm, it's even more one-sided than hydra comps vs colossi! And it seems very costly - though it CAN pay off - for the zerg to wrestle air control back from the pack of phoenix.
I think the biggest kink in this strategy, especially compared to brood war, is a timing issue of getting your templar archives + storm in time for the zerg's midgame push. If you don't have a good number of storms, he'll walk all over you with mass hydra-roach. If you have enough storm for the hydras and can feedback/phoenix-snipe overseers, your Void Rays and DTs can respectively make it much easier to fight cost-effectively against the larger zerg army.
In fact, this is basically the same issue that caused corsair-DT to fall into relative disuse - it became very vulnerable to a 5 hatch hydra early mass-unit timing bust. I don't know the timings offhand, but I think this will translate to SC2 as well, but the timing window is even bigger, because you need an extra minute and 200 more gas to get psi storm tech ready. Also your gas gathering isn't as fast because the opportunity cost of saturating 4 gas so early is a lot more expensive compared to saturating 2 gas in BW.
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I made this post in the simple questions simple answer thread awhile ago about this topic:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187808¤tpage=118#2345
I believe it still stands. This build can work, but relies too much on surprise, catching the Zerg off guard, and in general the Zerg being thrown off. While this is great at lower levels of play, it's much tougher to pull off at higher levels. Especially now where we see much more early queens and faster creep spread, blind spores/defense at a zerg's 3rd, and more infestor play (infestors will absolutely shut down this strategy hard).
The main issue is that your army is great for harass, but can't do anything to actually kill the Zerg. You rely on delaying the Zerg for a huge amount of time so that you can get a humongous eco and tech advantage. But what if the Zerg defends relatively well? Then you have nothing to kill a roach army backed with some detection and anti-air. Zealots are crap against roaches, you won't have that many colossus/HT in time if at all, and your stalker/sentry count will be low.
Another part of this strategy seems to heavily rely on using the phoenix to kill the overseer. Someone compared this to vikings sniping obs. That's ridiculous. Vikings do a ton more damage, obs are so much weaker, and the biggest factor of all, the range on phoenix is 4 compared to the viking's 9. It actually takes awhile for phoenixes to kill an overseer, and if there are hydras underneath that overseer, you're going to lose half your phoenix. If there's an infestor underneath the overseer, you're going to lose ALL your phoenix. Then if you do manage to snipe the overseer without losing your phoenix, all you're going to do is to make the zerg run back to his base and come back with 2-3+ overseers. Then what are you going to do? Meanwhile your DTs kill at most 2 roaches and a hydra because DTs are slow and roaches have high HP.
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On June 27 2011 09:40 Gooey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 06:31 Bladeorade wrote:
I had someone attempt to do this to me the other day. I'll see if I can find the replay.
It appeared as though they were going a stargate exand, and he went to deny my 3rd with void ray/phoenix but I had enough queens to drive them away.
My normal ZvP is ling/infestor so my infestor tech was on the way. When he revealed exactly how many phoenix he had (and an additional void ray) I dropped a Hydra den.
I managed to catch his air in a fungal and killed them.
His DTs caught me incredibly offguard and he managed to take my 3rd down since it had low heath.
I fungaled every DT and killed them.
Then I went for a ling/hydra/infestor push with 5 infestors 8-12ish Hydras and speedlings (with+2 at this point I believe)
He had a handful of gateway units and 1 archon at his base since I killed all of his harassing units.
Either way I could not see this style of play doing well against infestor play and standard play is leaning towards infestors at the moment.
Phoenix do not snipe Overseers very quickly and the combination of infestors and hydralisks shut it down terribly.
Even though I was caught offguard by his DTs all I had to do was A move, any infestor micro was unnecessary I can't see this working at a high level. You shouldn't be able to fungal a bunch of clumped DTs. If used properly, DTs are spread out individually, not all holding hands.Before I had to stop playing, I too started to work some sort of bisu-esque build out. Air + DT does work really well, because it allows you to get all of your tech out and infrastructure up due to the amount of time it buys you. It doesn't work on every map, and you need some distance, because the only thing that gives it trouble is the same thing that gave it trouble in broodwar: Super mega hydra bust all-in (and of course, if they are doing some insane 19 drone 8roach/ling all-in just spam cannons and make sentries). If you are active enough with your air units, you will be able to see a hydra bust coming. Infestors really aren't a problem, because you can beat an infestor with micro (like the OP said, this is a very micro-intensive playstyle that requires a lot of multitask). Infestors are also not an aggressive attack/harass unit against protoss in the early and mid game, but rather defensive 'omg I need to stay alive right now' units. That's great! You don't want zerg to be making things like lots of speed roaches to come kill you. By the time zerg has his 74 drones and is starting to make units, we are starting to kill his drones. With good micro/multitask, you CAN kill drones off, and bring the count to about even. Now that your economies are relatively even, you have full tech and the same economy, with them likely pumping a lair tech army. That sounds like a scary pvz scenario for zerg. DT follow-up to your air opener retains your map control long enough to keep zerg from comfortably being on his 3 bases (impossible to get a 4th if done right), much less moving out for an attack. Once you have all of your tech out ready to make your 2 base push, you can take your 3rd, just like in broodwar. Keep all of your harass units active and busy on their side of the map to keep them there. Try not to lose phoenixes! They are not Japanese kamakazi pilots! Retain your phoenix count as best you can. It takes a lot of concentration and multitask, but they are very powerful units. The difference between a normal corsair and a Bisu corsair, is that Bisu's are always moving around doing something, and he doesn't let them get killed, albeit much harder in BW with scourge hovering around.
Sorry I wasn't clear, he had 5 DTs, I had 5 infestors. I got 2 in one fungal, 2 in another (not holding hands just barely close enough to get hit together) and 1 alone.
He focused down my hatchery and then spread them to run away but I caught them in fungals and surrounded with speedlings.
How you can claim infestors aren't a problem is beyond me, they detect and prevent phoenix harass and also destroy armored units. They are not only a defensive unit, I am very active with my infestors and if you couple hydras and lings with them the only thing that stands a chance is either mass colossus (so many that NP is ineffective) or high templar.
Neither of which are possible to have out in time for a push like I am saying. At best you could have a handful of high templar without storm and 1 Colossus since you are going stargate -> twilight. I think even having 1 would be iffy.
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saying infestors counter this doesnt apply since currently they counter every single protoss composition. however ling/bling does ruin this build and thats one of the most commomn strats vs. p currently.
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Fungal > DT and Phoenix
Don't need overseers to see DTs when I got fungal.
2base Roach/Hydra push > DT/Phoenix harass.
I'm not sure how you'd survive early/mid game...
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On June 28 2011 04:02 johngalt90 wrote:
saying infestors counter this doesnt apply since currently they counter every single protoss composition. however ling/bling does ruin this build and thats one of the most commomn strats vs. p currently.
Oh so because infestors are good it doesn't apply?
Makes sense.
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I used this style back in September. Much has changed and the hardest part about this build is dealing with hydra timings.
if you want to watch this style in action heres a game i played back in september on a smurf. my biggest problem with this style was as I said hydra timings, so templar are the natural choice due to lack of early robo. I usually would open and transition into surprise double robo colo after a pheonix/dt/gateway comp. Might be good with archons now. I kind of abandoned the style with the roach range buff. I do think it would transition quite nicely into a zealot/archon mix in the lategame.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/74825-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
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I think this strategy could do great on big map but not like this, FE canon and chronoboost probe, making stargate at a very good spot where he cant find and chronoboost voidray then pheonix and then throw tech to dt, when u warp the first 3 dts, u had 3 gate, go on with pheonix (except if infestor) and go blink stalker of 6 gate, zerg will be to busy making spore crawler,queen and hydra. ideally having 12 phoenix and taking up hydraswith a great harass, as well taking expand when harassinf dt is really great, because almost always opponent when pull back when dts are out to protect his eco.
main problem of this start is that phoenix make zerg make -> spore crawler > dts. For sure its 100% loose if your opponent knows ur strat but if you catch them off guard it can stress them and make them mistake, but also its very hard to pull out because it requires to micro ur macro ur pheonix and each dark templars,,, also as many said, very weak to roach ling all in...
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On June 28 2011 00:09 Sweetness.751 wrote:
I'm glad after the initial flaming, that people are starting to consider this a real possibility and not so much of a gimmick. The xDaunt thread is helpful that Zeromus linked to at the top of the page. If you are at all curious as to another few pages on the theory behind the style you can check his thread out as well. He also has replays that can further document the effectiveness to this build.
Think of Terran when they get a Raven go mass cloaked banshees then 1-2 vikings to snipe your obs. People say its gimmicky, yet its almost impossible to save your observer. The only real way to counter it is to get several observers which is a huge gas sink, just like overseers. Thus delaing everything else you are doing.
No one was flaming you. You can't expect to post a strategy here without subjecting it to critical evaluation. That people have seen this in action and think it isn't ideal doesn't mean they are flaming you or your strategy. The best strategies survive because they can weather all of the criticism, all of the scrutiny, and still come out as solid. That's what happened with the Bisu style in BW, but in BW HTs and DTs came from the same building, roaches and banelings didn't exist and scourge didn't kill corsairs the way corruptors kill phoenixes.
Even my initial post, which you considered a "flame," stated that the strategy can work but is probably not ideal. I asked you why you would not choose one early game harass strategy then invest that extra gas in a bigger army as opposed to another harass unit, but instead you took that as flaming. That is not conducive to approaching this forum in a constructive manner.
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On June 26 2011 23:19 Sweetness.751 wrote:This will be an overall guide as to how to effectively take map control back from the Zerg and dictate the pace of the game once again as Protoss. *Many people will probably say this is a gimmicky build or style of play and can be easily countered by spore crawlers and good scouting, but I assure you this is far from the truth. In addition my inspiration came from the great BW player Bisu. Overview: Bisu came up with the brilliant idea of how to take map control away from the Zerg after Protoss expands to his natural. His idea was to exploit Zerg’s floating supply (overlords) and then abuse their lack of detection to contain his opponent. Build:* This is really more of a play style than a build per say, but I will give you the build I have currently been using, as a reference. My opener is a 2 gate pressure expand into Stargate. If you lose this small army, you need to make sure you do damage otherwise you will be behind. I also don’t really believe in following the supply count to place structures and build units, but here is an outline nevertheless. Phase 1: Opener(Honestly any opener will do, you can go forge fast expand or the standard 3gate sentry expand. This is the opener I use, it really doesn’t matter how you get to phase 3, just as long as it’s safe and you make it there.) 2gate Expand+ Show Spoiler +9 Plyon
(scout w/ probe)
14 Gate
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
Cyber Core @ 100 gateway completion
(at roughly 20 food is when lings could appear for a standard pool first build. Hide your probe as you will need it later)
Zealot at 100 minerals
Gateway at 150 minerals
Pylon
Warpgate Research @ 100% cyber core completion
Constantly chrono Warpgate Research
Sentry @ 100 gas
2nd assimilator
2 stalkers @ 100 gas
Proxy pylon by hidden probe
Nexus @ 400 minerals Push out with your force to pressure Zerg. This push can do a lot of damage. Scout with your proxy probe [very important] to see Zerg’s reaction. If he responds with lings warp in 2 zealots at the proxy; if roaches then warp in 2 stalkers. You don’t need to engage if you feel uncomfortable or outnumbered, but if you do engage you need to deny mining and you need to do damage because once you push into his natural your units will eventually die and you will have very little defending for a counter push. My general rule of thumb is, if you can get in between his mineral line and his hatch relatively unscathed then make the push. Otherwise fall back. Phase 2: Weathering the Storm+ Show Spoiler +Immediately begin to sim city your natural. Make a Stargate in your base but near your natural. I usually use a Forge and a 3rd Gateway to wall off my front, however the gateway doesn’t need to be thrown down till after your nexus finishes. Warp in 3rd assimilator so it finishes as Nexus does.
(Constantly chrono workers [unless huge pressure/ all-in is suspected] and warp in Zealots only after you have roughly 4 sentries)
Produce Void Ray immediately @ 100% Stargate completion
Make Twilight Council @ 100 gas.
(Once 3rd assimilator has warped in throw down the 4th assimilator)
@ 100% Void Ray completion, produce Phoenix and constantly do so for the rest of the game.
@ 250 gas surplus and 100% completion of Twilight Council warp in Dark Shrine. There are two reasons for the Void Ray. The first is for early Roach aggression. I’ve found that a high roach count before the DT tech finishes can do a tremendous amount of damage since all you have are zealots and sentries. The Void Ray is a solid solution to this problem, even though you may need to run probes till the roaches are pushed back by the Void Ray, as the zealots and Sentries can more than handle the lings. Ultimately if he is going pure roach he will be in a world of hurt once DT tech finishes. The Void Ray also is a good way to pressure/deny the Zerg’s third while DTs focus on Drones. The Dark Shrine should finish once 2-3 phoenix are out. Reveal your Phoenix while rallying your Void Ray to his suspected 3rd base. Warp in as many DTs as you can afford, 3-4 usually. Make sure you don’t run your DTs into his main/natural without scouting with phoenix to see if he has spores or an overseer.
DTs need to focus on morphing spores and drones while Phoenix focus down Overseers, Queens and Overlords. The Void should be attacking the 3rd. It’s very important to hit his third b4 he can complete spores to defend it.
Once the initial harassment phase starts, take your 3rd base. It the timing is anywhere between the 11-13 minute mark depending on how quickly you rush the build.
With proper unit control you should have complete map control and can now contain the Zerg to 2 bases and 3 at the worst, while expanding quite freely. The Zerg cannot leave the creep and venture far away from his spore crawlers as he will have no detection against a warp in of DTs as the Phoenix can snipe Overseers easily.
Once the third base goes down I recommend making 2 more gateways as your money will pile up otherwise, then a Robo for observers and a warp prism. Produce 3-4 more gateways once your third is saturated while teching to Templar Archives.
If he is still on 2 bases, expect a huge all-in push to just kill you. Use forcefield to defend and snipe the overseer at all costs. Once it is dead, you can warp in a round of DTs and clean up his army.
If he manages to take his third, you should be dropping DTs in his main and warping zealots to assist. Have the DTs/zealots to snipe drones and then expensive tech (a spire would be my first choice, then hydra den). Remember to run your DTs back to your prism to retreat while leaving the zealots behind. Multi-pronged attacks are the name of the game, poking with your main army to his third while doing this is smart as well as lifting queens with Phoenix and sniping overlords/overseers.
Just keep denying bases with the DTs sitting at potential Zerg expos and eventually you will starve him to death. Any time you see an overseer, it should be your Phoenixes’ top priority. I also would like to point out that I have successfully displayed this style vs high master caliber players and this is a micro intensive strategy that requires much APM to execute. I in fact macro horribly during the harass and usually my money piles up, however I gain such a huge advantage that it does not matter.
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I find that a Hydralisk all in after the units are revealed (if the Zerg has a Hydralisk den either prebuilt or from reaction) should be good. I watched the replays, and I feel that if the Zerg just makes about 2-3 Overseers and builds Hydra Ling, he could kill you or deny your third for sure. Most users in here have the mindset of getting killed before the harass, however after can be done as well.
Zealot Sentry? Hydralisk kill. DTs with Overseers? Sad Zeratul. Hydralisks vs Low Phoenix count? Lol
That actually makes sense because it is a reaction, unlike how many sad users in here are saying this can't hold off a Hydralisk drop, which if you do well, most players would not scout your Stargate in time to drop you. That is similar to how people are saying a 6 pool is a counter to 15 Nexus.
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Uh, could I ask what level this is played at? because I can see this being incredibly difficult to execute against a good opponent, but being very effective. If this is versus an opponent who isnt of high caliber, they will be flustered by this kind of harass no matter what it is or how well it is done.
I'm not trying to dismiss/flame your build, but it looks like it definitely has a really high skill curve.
EDIT: Just re-read, I see high masters now. What do you think about subbing in blink stalkers instead of pheonixes? Because that way you could keep with a gateway centric army without having to spend money diversifying tech. Also, I think that a 2gate voidray expand would work really well with this build, I'll try this on ladder and post any success/failure I have with it.
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On June 30 2011 13:02 MK4512 wrote:
Uh, could I ask what level this is played at? because I can see this being incredibly difficult to execute against a good opponent, but being very effective. If this is versus an opponent who isnt of high caliber, they will be flustered by this kind of harass no matter what it is or how well it is done.
I'm not trying to dismiss/flame your build, but it looks like it definitely has a really high skill curve.
EDIT: Just re-read, I see high masters now. What do you think about subbing in blink stalkers instead of pheonixes? Because that way you could keep with a gateway centric army without having to spend money diversifying tech. Also, I think that a 2gate voidray expand would work really well with this build, I'll try this on ladder and post any success/failure I have with it.
Yes i must say after more tinkering there is no reason not to get the second gas sooner, which will make the composition that much easier to obtain. In addition, I've tried 2gate Stargate and I too believe its a better transition into the phoenix DT build than my 2 gate pressure expand. Plus it still follows the same core beliefs of getting an early void ray to deny third and defend roach/ling aggression.
I have a friend that is doing a DT expand into Stargate Phoenix with great success as well. So either order seems feasible.
Ive found a big key is hiding the Dark Shrine (obvious in hindsight), not so much the Stargate (though still try). Because a dozen drone kills or more can set back the Zerg light years and put you in the drives seat.
I in fact just posted a new replay with my 2gate Stargate opener, that held heavy roach/ling aggression I might add  Then transition into Void Ray DT. Was quite effective.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-218758.jpg)
