|
I have been experimenting with phoenix play in PVP
it's working quite well as opponents are not able to amass enough units to overwhelm me until i reach critical mass.
So i would like to hear the communities's thoughts 
Replays -
Immortals, stalkers, sentry
V diamond - http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/5789
Blink stalkers
V diamond - http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/5787
Chargelot into Archon blink stalker
V high diamond - http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/6269
Changes - New Replay Included, Discussion
There is POWER in numbers! - I've noticed that my pheonix are t2 units that are not costly like the immortals and void rays, and pack a punch in numbers!
Energy - While Energy is always an issue when you have small numbers, when you have 7 or more pheonix it's a problem that will go away with time and numbers.
Shock and Awe - Even if my army was 3 zealots my pheonix were able to really provide a vision flaw to my opponent and make it seem to them that my army was bigger than it really was.
Combat Effectiveness - I have been able to SO FAR to kill enemy forces with ease until i run out of energy. As the process of killing one does 2 things, 1 It kills them [obivously] 2 it nuifflies their ability to attack.
[Example - a stalker will attack an enemy stalker and that enemy stalker will be able to fire back]
However. if i have pheonix they wouldn't because of gravition beam. Therefore reducing their firepower, this really shines in immortals Versus stalkers combat where you take away their heavy cannons and they will be left with a smaller ground army that you can easily be able to sweep up
V Archons - In most battles you would find yourself fighting some 2 - 3 archons and 6-12 Zealots given enough micro [and a supreme deal of magic box] the pheonixes will kill most of the zealots![they do extra dmg against light!] Leaving the stalkers to kill the archons. [This case is argueable due to the fact that massive amounts of godlike micro is involved :o
PS - I am using this srat in all of my PvPs!
[Discussion] - Archons will total Pheonixes
Archons - Yes Archons will total Phoenixes and it is SO EFFECTIVE! However archons being a T2.5/T3 unit does not come by cheap. and it is Soft-countered by stalkers! But getting them is a high cost! whether at DTs 125/125 = 250/250 OR 2 HTs 100/300 Very gas intensive indeed! not to mention that you need stalkers to deal some damage on the battlefield [Since archon is a tank and doesn't really deal alot of dmg] And on one base it is just Devastating trying to support that!
DTs - Yes I have lost to DTs before during some of my games so i have adapted to ALWAYS get a forge  then a robo
|
While it's nice to have replays, it would be also nice to have more details on the build. What does it do, why is it good, how much have you used it?
edit: and how is it different from phoenix play used elsewhere? I've had a lot of fun playing with Immortal/Phoenix that was posted in a thread somewhere around here.
Prolly good to take a look at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113479
|
I would do it as long as it works for you, at the level you're playing at you will most likely get wins in PvP but only because your opponents don't use the units they should be using.
|
On June 16 2011 07:54 tehemperorer wrote:
I would do it as long as it works for you, at the level you're playing at you will most likely get wins in PvP but only because your opponents don't use the units they should be using.
OP plays at diamond level which although there not great they still have to be decent at the game so no need to bash diamond toss they do kno what there doing maybe they cant play at a higher level like masters or gm but they still have basics down so maybe OP is on to something here that can range for all levels not just diamond and below. but op definetly needs more info on the thread besides just replays
|
Is that detailed enough ?
|
On June 16 2011 08:08 HITHARBLING wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 07:54 tehemperorer wrote:
I would do it as long as it works for you, at the level you're playing at you will most likely get wins in PvP but only because your opponents don't use the units they should be using. OP plays at diamond level which although there not great they still have to be decent at the game so no need to bash diamond toss they do kno what there doing maybe they cant play at a higher level like masters or gm but they still have basics down so maybe OP is on to something here that can range for all levels not just diamond and below. but op definetly needs more info on the thread besides just replays
Please understand that it's not bashing, it's just a statement. The players in Masters and higher already know the uses of phoenix in PvP
|
|
|
i see.. however i am just asking about general phoenix play and is it generally accepted as a good/bad build and how other people feel about using Phoenix in PvP
|
I've experimented with pheonix openings, but any robo build that scouts it can very quickly switch to archon blink stalker, and turtle for a bit (or rush dts), its not really viable lategame, I feel, and early game (eg. a pheonix opening) can die to pressure... It does shine in the mid-game, but I feel like mass-voidray builds do better
|
I think a big problem for phoenix play at the moment is the fact they can't lift archons anymore. As a result archons just counter them hard, especially as they have decent AA damage and phoenixes often tend to clump a little as well.
Phoenix by their nature have to be massed a bit to be useful, in small numbers they can't lift enough to really do damage. As such I don't really see how phoenix play can defend against someone just switching over to archons when they scout it and pushing with 2 archons and some stalkers + zealots. You can't really have tech with them and those archons just murder your gateway stuff while being untouchable by phoenix, archons do alright against voids too so that doesn't really help either.
Overall I just think stargate play is the least desirable tech in PvP. Any play with twilight council can easily kill it by adding archons, as such it is only really good against robo play imo against which it isn't even autowin. Unless you have a very good hunch your opponent goes robo I simply wouldn't play it, on small maps I might even prefer the robo player as they can easily add in archons (canceling immortal asap after seeing stargate).
|
I feel that Phoenix is hard countered by a blink stalker build that will contain you and then expand behind it without committing to any attack. Besides that it is a decent build that will trash robo builds and force blink 99% of the time.
|
Phoenix play, from my experience, is VERY effective against robo builds and blink builds. The Phoenix can pick off high gas sentries, disable immortals, disable 5+ staplers in an instant. I can't seem to hold 4gate, though. And I have a hard time vs fast expansions - archons also tend to make Phoenix plays tough.
|
the replay against the blink stalker player wasn't a very good representation of the tech. the build he did was pretty bad and he didnt pool any chrono for blink so it's not a very good source of evidence to say that it works against blink stalkers
|
I've been screwing around with Phoenix on ladder with mixed success. Discussion of the BIG weakness (passive Blink with contain and/or expand) has already been pointed out. Here's a sample build I patterned mine off of, executed by Tyler.Tyler (Phoenix) vs MC (Robo/Blink) Here. Tyler opts for a timing attack off it it. Linking the whole pack for now, you can just extract his games vs oGsMC if you'd like.
Myself using phoenix against a 4gate play. He's master league, as am I, (neither of us is very high up). It's a pretty brutal attack even despite some mistakes made on both sides.Danglars vs chronicgaming
Last game where I defended a ramp against 3gate blink was, sadly, an 'obs' map which has maybe 25 individual games on it, so I won't link that. Needless to say, it requires tons of micromanagement to keep him from blinking back injured stalkers (I lift the weakened ones and have phoenix finish them off as my stalkers/zealots focus down ones on the ground).
Advantages
Great scouting info
Good harass tool against a defensive player
Good fight against 3gate robo and anything of the 1base colossus style of play.
Very mobile force on large maps
Robo transitions give immortals, excellent tool against an opponent that has been using stalkers to defend
Lategame (if you make it there) the pooling of energy gives many lifts to a small number of phoenix. Allows for fast disabling of multiple units as you shoot down ones lifted.
Punishes retreats brutally. Any won battle leads to heavy losses since they chase down everything and immobilize the retreat.
Disadvantages
Very micro intensive. Beams, warpins, pylons, chrono'd gates, focusfire from phoenix and ground units for maximum efficiency.
Proper response is blink, which is itself a great tech to have in PvP. Has possibility of sniping 1-2 phoenix at every engagement, weakening your army
DT tech/DT rushes are not easy to adjust to.
Passive blink expands are unable to be punished effectively
Reliant on good ramp control on the defense
Early game can run out of energy to lift at critical times
|
There was a thread a long time ago about a possible fast mothership off a phoenix opening that could possibly be used as an answer to an archon tech switch (since it forces detection and gives phoenix a continued use in sniping observers at the least.)
I agree with Whiplash in that I see a Phoenix opening to just be a build order loss against a blink stalker opening from a player who has experience against the build.
|
United States328 Posts
I'd say its only used in the early game if you 100% know they're going to rely on immortals to stay alive/expand/attack. Midgame, they can be used for harassment, sure, but in an actual fight it'd be better to just make void rays if you're insistent upon getting stargate tech.
|
The 2010 MLG Raleigh Starcraft 2 Finals match between Kiwikaki and Huk, Game 2 in a Bo3
Kiwikaki does some early pressure and then goes collosus
Huk defends the pressure and goes for a quick stargate for phoenix's, phoenix focus fire the collosus and then lifts as many stalkers as there were phoenix's. Huk crushes Kiwikaki and then goes on to win the Bo3 and the whole event. I believe at the end he thanked Noni for the phoenix build
It seemed like a solid build and it's only weakness would be an attack before there are a criticle number of phoenix on the field
|
Phoenix are a great way to keep the pressure on in PvP too, you can force mutliple blinks and expand behind it while building a standard army. With scouting info you can react to your opponents tech as well. I am a fan of this build, need more practice with it tho.
|
Technically against Protoss the basic theory of having a few powerful units is why this strategy is good. If you think of every lift as how much damage is not on your units then a lift against Protoss is extremely effective.
A small variation could be to use your spare minerals to go charge lot pressure because charge-lots will just kill stalkers horribly. Not to mention that because phoenix and zealots produce really fast this build could be really good against rushes or at least it is easy to re-enforce.
However, you would 100% need a forge early to get cannons otherwise you are going to get killed fast by dts.
|
A well timed 4gate would most likely kill this opening, no?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
