[D]Mining; Split or Build first? - Page 2

Shadrak

United States490 Posts

April 29 2011 20:01 GMT

#21

Your initial estimation of 2s to build a worker seems a little high. Just because you build first doesn't mean you hotkey the building at that point. You can easily build, send, split, hotkey.

However, I'm curious how using ctrl+F1 to have your workers selected the exact second the game starts versus having to select them later factors in. I try to use:

Control+F1 as the game loads
Send workers
Build worker
Split workers
Hotkey main

But in reality that messes up my split. However I assume that's a lack of APM on my side, not something fundamentally wrong with the order.

Soulish

Canada1403 Posts

April 29 2011 20:03 GMT

#22

On April 30 2011 04:01 Monta wrote:
0.25 second reaction time? That's ridiculous. Please don't make a thread like this without actually looking into.

I build then split but I could see sending all, building, then splitting being the best

.25 is stunningly average

askTeivospy

1525 Posts

April 29 2011 20:10 GMT

#23

bind idle probe alternate key to Caps Locks

press control while loading
press E while holding down control (MUST be in this order)

spam click around the middle of your screen where the nexus will be

as soon as you click, let go of E and hit caps lock while holding down control and moving your cursor to a mineral patch

right click patch then split the other 3 asap

---

if i do it right i have a probe building ASAP and my workers are all mining by 2 - 3 game seconds via 3 - 3 split, practically none of this makes a difference though unless you're pretentious and think it does IMO

dave333

United States915 Posts

April 29 2011 20:13 GMT

#24

I split as zerg first while hotkeying the hatch and going sd. just feels better to me to get the drones moving quicker. also you arent inhibited by queues anyway

SeraKuDA

Canada343 Posts

April 29 2011 20:13 GMT

#25

This is so insignificant. Do whatever feels right to you.

ScrubS

Netherlands436 Posts

April 29 2011 20:19 GMT

#26

If you're going a standard T opening (10 depot, 12 rax, 13 ref, 15 OC) u will be supply blocked for 1-2 seconds before you depot completes. This means that you actually only lose 4 * 1,43 minerals if you split, because its all about the depot timing. If you get that depot up earlier, u will get supply blocked for less seconds, resulting in a quicker SCV.

4 * 1,43 minerals < 8,6 minerals, which reverses your conclusion for Terran. I think protoss got a similair situation, but then at 9/10 pylon. Not sure about this tho

bwally

United States670 Posts

April 29 2011 20:28 GMT

#27

I make drone first between 0sec and 1sec real time. SC2gears doesn't show milliseconds so I don't know exactly how long it takes.

Gao Xi

Hong Kong5178 Posts

April 29 2011 20:32 GMT

#28

Coming from BW, i make the drone first and then split. It literally takes less than half a second to do all that. in SC2 i 3/3 split.

1st_Panzer_Div.

United States621 Posts

April 29 2011 20:34 GMT

#29

I think that trying to put concrete math behind this is a little silly, as the deviation even between one player's games is going to be very high; it's a very, very small time period.

As long as you split & build your worker as fast as you can, then it's all good.

Chahta

United States148 Posts

April 29 2011 20:41 GMT

#30

I feel this mostly applies to pros who can actually utilize minor advantages like this and mineral stacking...I am curious since I'm here, has the math been done for zerg on 10OL+extractor vs 9OL? I've only managed to find that it is more of a larvae management issue than anything, but I find with 9OL I only get 2 larvae up at any one time if I'm doing it right...though if I'm at all slow there will be a third larvae by the time i make my OL.

Apologies if this is too off topic, it is mining centric still and larvae count is impacted slightly by split technique :/

L3gendary

Canada1470 Posts

April 29 2011 20:43 GMT

#31

Yeah, making the worker doesn't even take a second. You can see in the build order menu after the game when it says something like drone @ 59: 99. So i always make the worker first. It also helps my split because it gives me slightly more time to decide how to split/what mineral patches to pick.

At the beginning of the game you don't know what direction the minerals are going to be but you can keep your mouse right in the center to quickly click on the town center to build a worker and then ctrl+f1 to select workers so your mouse can go directly towards minerals after building the worker (instead of boxing).

Mazer

Canada1086 Posts

April 29 2011 20:44 GMT

#32

My reasoning is that getting 6 workers mining a split second faster will yield more minerals than that 7th worker that would come out a split second faster.

Spam ctrl+f1 and send to patch
Build worker
Try to split off last two workers

is that I do...

Divine-Sneaker

Denmark1225 Posts

April 29 2011 20:49 GMT

#33

I usually just do a mine command for all workers, then build and then split them.
No need to do hotkeys or anything else until after you're done with the initial commands. Not like there's much else to do at that point.

ClysmiC

United States2192 Posts

April 29 2011 20:55 GMT

#34

I'm sorry, but this discussion is pointless. If anything, the only difference is going to be 5 minerals, which won't change the game. Even in a mirror match-up.

AKspartan

United States126 Posts

April 29 2011 20:55 GMT

#35

If you want to make a substantative mathematical analysis, don't make bad assumptions. Do the necessary testing to figure out exactly what realistic times are.

Beef Noodles

United States937 Posts

April 29 2011 20:59 GMT

#36

Maybe its different in SC2, but in BW you ALWAYS built the worker first. Even if you sent them, built the worker, and then split, you got less minerals then if you built the worker first

Xapti

Canada2473 Posts

April 29 2011 21:08 GMT

#37

On April 30 2011 04:15 Flammable wrote:
I always start the game with the cursor over the hatchery, so it takes practically no time to build a worker. Basically I am moving the cursor to split whilst I click and press "S - D". Then I split, so basically I think this is the best method =)

yeah that's what I do, it just seems pretty efficient. definitely it's very fast to build a worker.... far under 2 seconds, lol.

What's terribly annoying though is when the mouse, or especially the camera, is off-center. They should add a patch where the mouse and camera won't move in this small period of time between when the game is loaded and when the playing screen appears.

Also I find top positions, 12 o'clock, to be so damn annoying and terrible for zerg. The overlord like blocks sight, and the drones are in a line instead of a right-angle V at the corner of a base.
Bottom (9 o'clock) is also annoying, but it's not as bad because the overlord isn't as obtrusive I don't think.

Jermstuddog

United States2231 Posts

April 29 2011 21:11 GMT

#38

On April 30 2011 05:01 Shadrak wrote:
Control+F1 as the game loads
Send workers
Build worker
Split workers
Hotkey main

This can be used to a good effect but I believe you have things in the wrong order.

Hold S or E at loading screen
Click Base
(Press D if you're zerg to actually spawn the drone)
Control+F1
Right-Click on Minerals
Split Desired Workers
(Send Overlord if you're Zerg)
Hotkey Base

At least for me, that seems to be the most efficient way to go through things and I have everything done within the first 5 or so seconds of game time unless I mess up badly. Still, I haven't made it second nature and constantly mix things up.

thebigdonkey

United States354 Posts

April 29 2011 21:19 GMT

#39

I always wondered why people built first. For the longest time, I sent to mine first because it seemed logical to me that it would be better to get 6 workers mining faster than to get 1 worker mining faster. Now that I know it is a brood war thing, it makes more sense.

CaptPanda

48 Posts

April 29 2011 21:27 GMT

#40

It should take less time to build than to send workers over.

Think about the actions required to do either. To build a unit, you click (since cursor should be centered to begin with) and then press S, D, or SD (which can be held from the beginning.)

On the other hand, splitting workers requires you to select all workers (Ctrl + F1 is probably fastest) and then click on a mineral patch (requires mouse movement since you don't know which spawn you start at.)

If you were to split first, it's actually probably faster to send probes to mine, build a probe, and then split if you can manage to do that.

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