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[D]Mining; Split or Build first? - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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TrANCE,
Profile Joined December 2010
301 Posts
April 29 2011 21:55 GMT
#41
Always build a worker first. I don't know how slow your guys splits are but from my first probe to my worker split is about 0.1 of a second and thats the point it's all dependant on the speed of which you can do it so two seconds just doesn't cut it. Also your first two actions are 1)Worker 2)split 3)hotkey.

if anyone is going worker first then hotkey before the split they need a slap because thats stupid
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-29 22:08:10
April 29 2011 22:00 GMT
#42
This has been answered quite solidly before, here:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=138157

The short answer is build first. The correct answer is that it depends on your race (Zerg benefits slightly from split first), your initial supply building location/timing, and your speed at split->build and build->split.

[edit] Also some reworkings of my proof in that thread are here and here.
Like a G6
Topazas
Profile Joined March 2010
Lithuania86 Posts
April 29 2011 22:24 GMT
#43
There were so many threads about this. Just do whatever you think is better for you.
SnetteL
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Belgium473 Posts
April 29 2011 22:40 GMT
#44
hmm

As a zerg player i think i might have to disagree to your conclusion. Your next larvae will only start producing from the moment your hatch has less than 3 larvae so making a worker first will make a difference as long as you don't "cut" larvae.

With your calculations your conclusion would be:

every cheesy pool -> split first
every eco zerg build -> drone first
Caps lock is cruise control for cool.
xJaCEx
Profile Joined August 2010
155 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-30 00:23:15
April 30 2011 00:21 GMT
#45
Build first seems like it's better on paper but I just find sending first a bit more user friendly as I do not like using the ctrl f1 key thing. But I would like to see how a mis-split would factor into this
First blood is as good as anything.
djdoodoo
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom192 Posts
April 30 2011 00:24 GMT
#46
splitting your workers isn't even that necessary tbh, it doesn't really make a massive difference
Kornholi0
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada634 Posts
April 30 2011 00:33 GMT
#47
I am not going to QQ this thread, but here is my 2cents... Idra never lost a game because he didn't split his workers, or made a drone first versus splitting first.
This thread has probably been made infinity times... Use a search function =/ This is like a "betcha didn't know" kinda thread... Non-helpful and if any helpful to like #2 Grandmaster in the world if he didn't know to get to the 1st...
Team Channel: VTeX Team Co-leader: AGGhost 223 Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/agghost
DiaBoLuS
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany1638 Posts
April 30 2011 00:46 GMT
#48
i use to split 3-3 and build my worker then at second 0.03 - the 11th worker nullifies any losses.

+ you can build the pylon a bit earlier, since you mined more till worker 9.

its just about feeling, its not more then 5-10 mins, which is rly not even a huge thing on the toppest pro lvl in PvP...
European Ranking: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=182293
DiaBoLuS
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany1638 Posts
April 30 2011 00:48 GMT
#49
On April 30 2011 09:24 djdoodoo wrote:
splitting your workers isn't even that necessary tbh, it doesn't really make a massive difference


wrong - its 5 times more important then "build worker first or split first" due to mineral loss.

even more important to stack workers on near mineral patches - but just if you dont lose too much mining time while doing it
European Ranking: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=182293
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
April 30 2011 01:18 GMT
#50
Splitting generates no extra mineral income.

The only reason to do it is it makes stacking easier, but on its own its worthless.
Like a G6
CrAzEdMiKe
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada151 Posts
April 30 2011 03:13 GMT
#51
On April 30 2011 10:18 kzn wrote:
Splitting generates no extra mineral income.

The only reason to do it is it makes stacking easier, but on its own its worthless.


That's flat out incorrect. If you split your workers correctly, they will mine at the closest mineral nodes, causing the return trip to be faster and thus, you will mine more minerals within X period of time. Once you achieve full saturation, of course your income will be the same regardless. But early on, getting that faster income can speed up a build, even if by only a couple of seconds... But those couple of seconds can make a big difference if you're aiming to do something in a very precise timing window.
CatNzHat
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1599 Posts
April 30 2011 03:26 GMT
#52
Just a small comment here, hopefully this doesn't piss off any mods, but I've found that splitting my workers takes much less than 2 seconds to complete, as i am able to both produce my first SCV and get my workers mining (on the best available patches, not just box em all and send em to 1 patch) all withing around 1.4 seconds, I know for a fact that I'm not nearly as fast as most of the masters and GM players out there, so I think there may be a flaw in your reasoning. Also, if I build any SCV first, I don't hotkey the CC before splitting, as I have plenty of time after that to set up hotkeys/rally my CC.
kunstderfugue
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Mexico375 Posts
April 30 2011 03:39 GMT
#53
i personally split my workers by clicking on the patch, building a worker and then pulling 3 workers to closer patch.
Old lamps for new!
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
April 30 2011 03:53 GMT
#54
On April 30 2011 12:13 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2011 10:18 kzn wrote:
Splitting generates no extra mineral income.

The only reason to do it is it makes stacking easier, but on its own its worthless.


That's flat out incorrect. If you split your workers correctly, they will mine at the closest mineral nodes, causing the return trip to be faster and thus, you will mine more minerals within X period of time. Once you achieve full saturation, of course your income will be the same regardless. But early on, getting that faster income can speed up a build, even if by only a couple of seconds... But those couple of seconds can make a big difference if you're aiming to do something in a very precise timing window.


Nobody has been able to reproduce this in practice. In theory, it might generate a tiny amount, but after massive testing the consensus is that its impossible to produce it.
Like a G6
LAN-f34r
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand2099 Posts
April 30 2011 04:19 GMT
#55
I think this can't be done by this sort of math accurately and really just needs a whole lot of testing. Ie for each race, just get one person to go split first 10 times and then build first 10 times, and compare the minerals at the 1 minute mark.
The only barrier to truth is the presumption that you already have it. It's through our pane (pain) we window (win though).
EliteAzn
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States661 Posts
April 30 2011 05:35 GMT
#56
My philosophy is, build first, split second because the sooner you get that first worker, the sooner you can get the 2nd, 3rd...etc. Faster first worker = faster increased income rate.
(╯`Д´)╯︵ ┻━┻ High Five! _o /\ o_
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
April 30 2011 08:07 GMT
#57
Every game, I do:

Select hatchery, sd

ctrl f1, click, split

send overlord to scout close air, control group overlord

control group hatchery, sd

I feel like as zerg your goal is to churn out drones so the only time I'd split before build is if I were 6poolin'
BeastofManju
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States79 Posts
April 30 2011 08:28 GMT
#58
At least we can all agree that the zerg should mine first then build correct?
The raven nevermore.
Arn
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden118 Posts
April 30 2011 08:38 GMT
#59
As a Zerg I am confident I have the right way of doing it by doing this:

Hold Ctrl+F1 (Workers are instantly selected when game loads)
Send them to a mineral path
Start my first worker
Individually split workers up (while they are still on their way to minerals)
... (Tell overlord to go away, hotkey stuff, camerabind stuff and other routines)

Property fightiiing! (Swe SC2 clan) | http://property-clan.com | FOR THE SWARM!
Aui_2000
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada435 Posts
April 30 2011 08:47 GMT
#60
Why do 12 and 13 gate differentiate when both of them have to cut probes to get out the first pylon? Or am i understanding how you calculated this wrong?

I've always done split first then make worker as protoss because .5 faster for 6 workers is better than .5 faster for 7th 8th and 9th probe until it equalized with a probe cut.
follow @aui_2000 // www.twitch.tv/aui_2000
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