• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:29
CEST 15:29
KST 22:29
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four0BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET6Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)80Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3
StarCraft 2
General
The New Patch Killed Mech! Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy herO joins T1 Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 INu's Battles #13 - ByuN vs Zoun Tenacious Turtle Tussle Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers
Brood War
General
BSL Season 21 BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW caster Sayle BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET
Tourneys
[ASL20] Semifinal B Azhi's Colosseum - Anonymous Tournament [Megathread] Daily Proleagues SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN
Strategy
Current Meta BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Relatively freeroll strategies Siegecraft - a new perspective
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Series you have seen recently... Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Heroism of Pepe the Fro…
Peanutsc
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1513 users

[D]Mining; Split or Build first?

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All
Malloy
Profile Joined June 2007
Canada166 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-29 18:31:19
April 29 2011 18:28 GMT
#1
Good Day Everyone,

While watching MikeD's stream yesterday, several of his regular viewers and myself had a discussion regarding the initial seconds of the game; is splitting your miners first better than building your initial worker first. I've done a little math and hope to hear some of your opinions as well.

On average, the player will split his workers to mineral patches so that you end up with 4 workers on close patches and 2 on far patches, so I'll assume this is true for the purpose of the following calculations. I'm also going to assume that it takes 2 in-game seconds to either split workers or build the first worker and hotkey your initial building. My last assumption is that the travel time of your initial workers will be the same no matter which path is chosen, so I will not include it in my calculations.

Build First
With the above assumptions, choosing to build your worker before splitting will generate an immediate loss of roughly 8.6 minerals. (This is the amount of minerals that would be gained with the additional 2 in-game seconds with 6 workers split 4close/2far.)

Split First
Choosing to split first will generate an immediate loss of 1.43 minerals and an anticipated loss of 1.43 minerals for each worker built immediately after the first. As soon as there is a cut to probes, this loss is nulified. This means;
Protoss;
10 gate will lose roughly 5.7 minerals overall. (Loss over 68 in-game seconds)
12 gate will lose roughly 8.6 minerals overall. (Loss over 102 in-game seconds or 90.66 in-game seconds with 1 Chronoboost)
13 gate will lose roughly 14.3 minerals by the 16th probe. (Loss over 170 in-game seconds or 147.3 with two chronoboosts, 136 with 3 CBs)
Note 1: Chronoboost will not effect the minerals lost, but if chrono causes an accidental cut, it may stop the loss chain.
Terran;
15 Orbital will lose roughly 12.9 minerals overall. (Loss over 153 in-games seconds)
Zerg;
Larva mechanic nullifies this debate...everything I calculated says split first.

So the math seems to tell me to split first as Zerg, Build first as Terran, and that Toss should change based on their openings...10 or 12 gate = Split first, 13 gate = Build first.

I understand that we are talking about a very small amount of minerals...but I know that mirror matchups can be largely effected by such differences. Let me know your thoughts on the matter!

+ Show Spoiler +
My other post on close mineral patches clarifies the reasons for some of my assumptions;
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=197826





gejfsyd
Profile Joined September 2009
Poland156 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-29 18:37:09
April 29 2011 18:34 GMT
#2
Your math may be right, but your assumptions are wrong. For average player it takes more time to split your workers then to build a worker.
Malloy
Profile Joined June 2007
Canada166 Posts
April 29 2011 18:38 GMT
#3
On April 30 2011 03:34 gejfsyd wrote:
Your math may be right, but your assumptions are long. For average player it takes more time to split your workers then to build a worker.


The selection and first click to minerals is the more important part...splitting the second half afterwards is only beneficial to determine the average ratio of close/far patches. I do not think it would effect the numbers too much. (Change the split and it will equally effect both options anyways.)
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
April 29 2011 18:42 GMT
#4
Very interesting results for Zerg and Toss. I never would've thought that split or build first would depend on the race.

Even though it doesn't affect me cause I'm Terran and I already build first, I'm sure it will help out tons of Zergs and 13-gating Toss players.
agahamsorr0w
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands359 Posts
April 29 2011 18:45 GMT
#5
i think its better to split first because:

_the 6 workers outmine the 1 worker ur building so you will mine more
_with ctrl+f1 you can select workers so fast that you can ''gain'' 1 second.

building a worker first will hurt you in my opinion because those 6 workers will not be mining untill u put them on the minerals. and 6 workers outmine the 1 or 2 second delay on your 7th worker.

with the individual splitting you can make your builds even better and get faster hatches as zerg. splitting is the last thing you want to master though but its definately worth it. most players wont think about it but you can lose lots of minerals if your probes run between mineral patches without mining.
deanyo
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom206 Posts
April 29 2011 18:45 GMT
#6
The math is flawed, there is no way it takes 2 seconds to build a worker, in fact i wouldnt be supprised if it was around 0.5 for myself. Personally i grab 6 workers, set them to the top far mineral patch, and then quickly build my worker as i pull off 3 and send them to the bottom.
twitch.tv/deanyo
NrG.ZaM
Profile Joined March 2008
United States267 Posts
April 29 2011 18:51 GMT
#7
It takes 2 seconds to start building the 7th worker? Just center your cursor during the loading screen and asap click and build, I don't see how that can ever take multiple seconds :O

On the actual topic though, I never really considered which would be better, building worker was always prioritized in bw so I just do that, and I play zerg anyway so even a small delay won't delay workers after that first one since I have larvae anyway.
Anomandaris
Profile Joined July 2010
Afghanistan440 Posts
April 29 2011 18:51 GMT
#8
lol everyone builds first and splits then. 100% sure that is the best way.
Malloy
Profile Joined June 2007
Canada166 Posts
April 29 2011 18:54 GMT
#9
On April 30 2011 03:45 deanyo wrote:
The math is flawed, there is no way it takes 2 seconds to build a worker, in fact i wouldnt be supprised if it was around 0.5 for myself. Personally i grab 6 workers, set them to the top far mineral patch, and then quickly build my worker as i pull off 3 and send them to the bottom.


In this case time will only change the base value, not the ratios or amount of time for the losses to equalize accross the two options. Keep in mind that it likely takes your brain close to 0.25 seconds to tell your hands to start...so adding that to your 0.5 seconds means that 0.75 seconds turns into 1.125 in-games seconds which is likely. (Also, I'm using averages here...)
BlindSC2
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom435 Posts
April 29 2011 18:55 GMT
#10
I build first and always am able to start the second probe immediatly anyway, although I see what youre saying if someone were doing say a 10 gate opening or whatnot

Otherwise 100% do build first in my opinion
Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools; because they have to say something - Plato
bMn30
Profile Joined January 2011
United States113 Posts
April 29 2011 19:00 GMT
#11
You can see how long it takes a player to build their first worker using the Build Order tab at a Score Screen. Most players take about 1 second, but the range is ordinarily between .48 seconds and a little over a second.
Monta
Profile Joined September 2010
United States60 Posts
April 29 2011 19:01 GMT
#12
0.25 second reaction time? That's ridiculous. Please don't make a thread like this without actually looking into.

I build then split but I could see sending all, building, then splitting being the best
CrAzEdMiKe
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada151 Posts
April 29 2011 19:03 GMT
#13
I think it slightly depends on the player. Since I have a keyboard that has macro keys, what I do is hold E to build my Probe (since I'm Protoss) and when the moment the game starts I click on the Nexus and it starts my worker. Then immediately after I hit the Nexus (and Probe starts building) my pinkie is easily able (and already positioned) to hit my G12 key which is CTRL + F1. So basically, I start building my Probe right away and already have my workers selected to send them on their way.

I'm still working on my getting the "perfect" split... But I seriously get them both started almost simultaneously that I think in my case it's better to build the probe first. In a general sense, I think it depends on how quickly you are able to do it. Before I had my keyboard I would build probe first and since my mouse was already in the vicinity of the probes, I'd box them and get them moving, and try and split them as they were getting off the start mining.

And as Blindgamer said, I've always found that I'm able to have no delay between building my second probe and the completion of the first one... So I'm personally of the opinion to build first (that and I remember seeing it a few times in some pro games that I was watching, so I just assumed it was the better way to go).
Malloy
Profile Joined June 2007
Canada166 Posts
April 29 2011 19:04 GMT
#14
On April 30 2011 04:01 Monta wrote:
0.25 second reaction time? That's ridiculous. Please don't make a thread like this without actually looking into.


Actually, it's 0.21...
http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php
Battlescore
Profile Joined August 2010
United States61 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-29 19:08:28
April 29 2011 19:06 GMT
#15
As a longtime Terran player, I build first then send workers to minerals. But really what matters most is that you get your commands in as soon as humanly possible and you select the best mineral(s) to drop your group of workers into. The thing to avoid is having one or two SCVs confused about what patch they should be mining.

My tactic is to spam S as the match is starting, and select my CC as quick as possible. Then as fast as I can, box my workers into one group and send them all to one mineral patch in the middle of the line, preferably the closest one to the CC. My "split" is to grab one of SCVs and send him to a patch away from the middle, but not all the way to the very end. (This is the SCV that would be left straggling if you sent all workers to one mineral without splitting). It took me a while to get good at selecting the single SCV without mis-clicking and screwing it all up, but the end result is I rarely rarely have stragglers left trying to find their patch to mine and everyone has their minerals back at the base in time for me to produce my next SCV with zero CC downtime.

That being said, the gain made from doing this is very small, and in a best-case scenario you will be maybe a half-second ahead of your opponent - hardly game-changing.
RoachyRoach
Profile Joined February 2011
81 Posts
April 29 2011 19:07 GMT
#16
Well doesnt it make sense that zerg drone production is limited my minerals while terran and toss are limited by time?

So zerg players should splitt first.

Personally I send all workers to 1 patch->build probe->take 3 and splitt
Polatrite
Profile Joined August 2010
United States135 Posts
April 29 2011 19:14 GMT
#17
I actually double-checked and graphed your math because I was unsure if the compounding would actually occur (instead of a linear loss) and turned up roughly the same results - interesting.

I can say for a fact that I've never lost a game by a razor thin margin like this, though, fortunately. I split first without splitting, then build. The lazy way.
I'm not going to cut my hair any time soon. I'm gonna let it grow out - I'm gonna become a shag monster. Shaggy monster, I guess, is what I should have said. I will ALSO be a shag monster. day[9] the shag monster, who plays both games and girls *snap*
YouthSC
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom355 Posts
April 29 2011 19:15 GMT
#18
I always start the game with the cursor over the hatchery, so it takes practically no time to build a worker. Basically I am moving the cursor to split whilst I click and press "S - D". Then I split, so basically I think this is the best method =)
The more I practice, the luckier I get!
mYiKane
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada1772 Posts
April 29 2011 19:21 GMT
#19
On April 30 2011 03:51 Anomandaris wrote:
lol everyone builds first and splits then. 100% sure that is the best way.


everyone also believed the sun rotated around the earth a few hundred years ago. you're just appealing to popular belief!

interesting thread though, i always assumed that splitting first or building first would make no difference. thanks for the contribution!
agahamsorr0w
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands359 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-29 19:33:05
April 29 2011 19:23 GMT
#20
i knew people would start getting mad at this thread... everyone seems to have their own opinion. it seems not important but it actually is.

as for what i said about the 1-2 second delay on the probe, if u split first then build then your probe will be created at the 1-2 second of the game. depending on how you split. this means you will lose 5 minerals for the delayed probe max but the 6 workers will mine more than 5 minerals. thats why i think splitting first is better.

Edit: the reason building first could potentially be better is because you dont know where you will spawn. the mineral patches could be above the nexus or beneath the nexus. you need some time to react so if you build first you will be able to locate the mineral patches and click with maximum precision. if you are focussed when the game is loading, you can prepare to locate the mineral patches and click on them as fast as you would if you built a probe first.

Edit nr.2 : yea sure this wont matter too much but if you want to maximize the efficiency of your build by doing this kind of things its only gonna help you. isnt it better to build a nexus 5 seconds earlier? or constantly building stuff and have more?
1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 32m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Harstem 511
sas.Sziky 18
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 34903
Calm 12360
Hyuk 5672
Horang2 2922
Jaedong 2193
Bisu 2097
GuemChi 1729
Flash 1459
Larva 772
Soma 735
[ Show more ]
EffOrt 623
Light 548
Soulkey 410
actioN 352
Mong 286
Snow 266
Mini 236
Hyun 214
hero 185
Pusan 140
TY 96
JYJ81
Barracks 77
JulyZerg 71
ggaemo 71
Mind 68
Killer 67
Sea.KH 60
Aegong 51
Noble 35
sorry 33
ToSsGirL 32
Rush 31
Movie 29
scan(afreeca) 21
Sharp 20
soO 18
Sacsri 17
Bale 15
SilentControl 14
yabsab 13
Terrorterran 11
Shine 9
HiyA 9
Dota 2
Gorgc5031
qojqva3055
Dendi1287
XaKoH 470
420jenkins313
XcaliburYe256
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2768
oskar85
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor190
Other Games
summit1g11701
singsing2539
B2W.Neo812
hiko775
Lowko299
Sick296
Pyrionflax262
Happy138
Hui .131
Mew2King53
ToD25
ArmadaUGS20
Organizations
StarCraft 2
CranKy Ducklings212
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 13
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 31
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 16
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis9444
Other Games
• WagamamaTV375
Upcoming Events
Monday Night Weeklies
2h 32m
Replay Cast
9h 32m
WardiTV Invitational
21h 32m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 1h
PiGosaur Monday
1d 10h
Replay Cast
1d 20h
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
OSC
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Snow vs Soma
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
CrankTV Team League
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.