EPT[D] Thorzain Build TvP build - Page 4
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b0urne420
Canada112 Posts
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Furycrab
Canada456 Posts
Just challenging assumptions for now, nothing groundbreaking yet. | ||
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k!llua
Australia895 Posts
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LastMan
90 Posts
On April 28 2011 00:25 GreEny K wrote: Watch them be completely wrong... I hope that this build gets really popular and then some protoss hass comes out with a carrier build that is amazing... I really hope. i sure hope so, because atm i play mainly bio and rage everytime i have to play against decent toss in 20++ minute long macro game and watch my army evaporate in few seconds vs colossus/storm | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 28 2011 00:39 Jermstuddog wrote: The thing is, all the things that made Carriers worthwhile in BW PvT aren't there in SC2 PvT. Problem 1 - Marines are REALLY good. Even if used for nothing other than a mineral dump, you probably want at least 1 barracks pumping out Marines constantly. They offer the best DPS/cost in the game, and when teamed up with Thor/Tanks, they force Protoss to get splash units, which are going to be mostly useless against the Mech side of your army. They also have the effect of nullifying interceptors because they can shoot up. Problem 2 - Thors are pretty much anti-interceptor. They have no need for weapon upgrades, come with 1 armor, and have tons of health. While a Thor can't do anything to the Carrier itself, they swat down Interceptors by the dozens. Problem 3 - Vikings will strike the finishing blow. Due to including Marines in your army earlier, you have forced Colossi onto the field, which will mean you want a couple Vikings to clean those up as well. Not as many as you would if you were going bio, but they're still useful with their massive range. Going Carrier instead doesn't help you. Sure the Carriers will do better vs the Vikings than Colossi would, but in order to hit vikings you need interceptors, if those are being shot down instantly by Marines and Thors, your Carriers are neutered and waiting to die. If you wait for a large engagement instead, your Carriers will be sitting ducks for the vikings to pick off while their interceptors target everything randomly. Problem 4 - EMP is REALLY good. Any Terran will eventually want Ghosts. If he's going Mech, the Ghosts will be secondary, but still desired in a "perfect composition". If you thought EMP was good vs a standard ground army, wait until the AoE hits 30 interceptors on top of whatever ground comp you've got. Not saying mech is imba or anything, there are ways to deal with it I'm sure, but Carriers are not that. Thors target carriers. You guys needs to try this in unit tester map I linked earlier. 10 +3 Carriers just wreck 10 thors with 10-12 vikings support. You'll maybe lose 2. Add 10 +3 phoenix you won't lose any carriers. Try the same with 20-30 VR you'll lose badly. Carriers are the only counter to ThorZains build besides mass immortal like 20. because thor do so much ground damage and little air damage to armored by comparison. Zealots just get schooled even without hellions support. Try 40 charglots too. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On April 28 2011 05:00 LastMan wrote: i sure hope so, because atm i play mainly bio and rage everytime i have to play against decent toss in 20++ minute long macro game and watch my army evaporate in few seconds vs colossus/storm That means you never took advantage of harass.. | ||
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dicksonlam708
Canada31 Posts
On April 28 2011 01:53 k!llua wrote: Has anyone got the builds Thorzain used the first few games? I'm at work and haven't gotten the chance to watch the VODs yet. 1 Barrack FE Strategy by Thorzain TSL3 is on my blog @ www.TerranSC.blogspot.com its the third post with build order | ||
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rmAmnesiac
United Kingdom185 Posts
 been trying it out a little today with some good success in ladder. just got a few questions, for some reason the vods haven't been working all day so can't rewatch, how is he keeping his minerals as low as he does? if i remember right the 3rd wasn't that fast and he was producing off 3 factories for a while. i know in his post he said he didnt't build any marauders so did he throw down a lot of additional racks just for unpgraded or stim marines? currently i'm finding it hard to find the balance of enough factories to keep minerals down (not doing it) but still have enough gas for constant thor production and upgrades (achieving this but with only a little gas to spare off 4 gysers). should it be possible? or is throwing down additional racks the answer? | ||
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dicksonlam708
Canada31 Posts
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Nemara
Sweden69 Posts
You want about 6-8 vikings,1 raven You want about 4-6 helions You want about 6-8 Thors and only attack when you have +2 amor This sort of stuff you should NEVER list in this fashion. Its about suiting your army composistion after what your opponent is doing. Helions to beat Zealots, vikings to beat colossi. If terran dosnt get Zealots, you NEVER want to go helions for anything else than harass purposes. Same thing obviously with vikings to colossi/air. | ||
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dicksonlam708
Canada31 Posts
On April 28 2011 07:01 Nemara wrote: This sort of stuff you should NEVER list in this fashion. Its about suiting your army composistion after what your opponent is doing. Helions to beat Zealots, vikings to beat colossi. If terran dosnt get Zealots, you NEVER want to go helions for anything else than harass purposes. Same thing obviously with vikings to colossi/air. lol.... what is the protoss going to have? a stalker/immortal/templar army? its a safe bet, zealots are gonan be in 99% of all protoss compositions as well as vikings against voidrays, carriers, and collosi | ||
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secondparttohell
13 Posts
I have play matches against P who goes mass immortals and stalkers. In that case you need to position your army well. I often made Vikings blindly as well to lessen the thread of VRs and carriers and they can shoot well when they land. Also I always try to do +1 attack for Air when I am done with +2 for my Thor. Just my 2 cents. | ||
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rmAmnesiac
United Kingdom185 Posts
On April 28 2011 15:28 secondparttohell wrote: I think ThorZaIn's build is extremely well-thought-out against Protoss. I have used it in like 10 matches for the ladder (Diamond) and I won 9 lost 1 to proxy pylon. I think this build is really vulnerable early one to a 3-4 gate with a lot of sentries. The sentries can easily forcefield and prevent scvs from repairing the bunkers so you need to scout well and bring scvs both the front and the back of the bunker the moment you senses pressure. I have play matches against P who goes mass immortals and stalkers. In that case you need to position your army well. I often made Vikings blindly as well to lessen the thread of VRs and carriers and they can shoot well when they land. Also I always try to do +1 attack for Air when I am done with +2 for my Thor. Just my 2 cents. vs sentries you say? doesn't the tank help out immensely? only thing i have lost to so far is 3 gate void, not sure how you can survive that with this build to be honest. | ||
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secondparttohell
13 Posts
On April 28 2011 17:33 rmAmnesiac wrote: vs sentries you say? doesn't the tank help out immensely? only thing i have lost to so far is 3 gate void, not sure how you can survive that with this build to be honest. I think it all comes down to scouting, but if I see early gas that often wall off with 1 bunkers + 2 depots and send 2 scvs for standing by and get a Viking out 1st instead of raven and then get the raven afterward. If they come out with DT instead, 2 Scvs can hold the line jst fine with 1 DT, if 2-3 you would need to pull 3-4 more. Still, it's a pretty tricky micro battle and honestly I think 3 Gate Voidray is the most difficult thing to deal with in most TvP match except if I decide to go 6-7 rax all in :D | ||
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dicksonlam708
Canada31 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
Of course it should be noted that the build order shouldn't be followed strictly, since it is so long and players must react and change things around often. Never thought about the 2 armor thors... but yeah that really helps against those 2*8 Zealots, which give Thors trouble, and since it would allow the Thors to tank for the DPS Banshees if you get them! Thanks for commenting on this Thorzain! I was about to wonder how much of this was actually part of the "build order", which was a general order, and what was completely dependent on each game. Btw, wow, can't believe this is Thorzain! http://www.duskbin.com/sites/default/files/thorzain.jpg He looks so much different from his TSL portrait. And from google images it seems he looks drastically different from picture to picture o.o. This picture above however, is SEXY. Perfect lighting/angle/background/clothing/face. Look so baller here! | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
Thankfully Interceptors do not drain PDD energy. Although Carriers become exponentially better in chokes as they are able to focus their poor dps more easily. However if you can overcome the weakness of the AI Thor + Viking do rather well against Phoenix + Carrier. As for people who make unit tester games please at least come up with realistic army engagements. You can sometimes blind counter an enemy player because you saw part of his army. If he spends on lots of gas heavy units and upgrades it is a good idea to get Hellions because he has to mineral dump his resources into Zealots. You do not have to see his army to do this. He will have Zealots. | ||
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dicksonlam708
Canada31 Posts
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Jinlol
2 Posts
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secondparttohell
13 Posts
So Thor will now have energy and strike cannon will now cost 150 energy. This will make ThorZaIN Mech build much more vulnerable to HT. I think now I will have to incorporate more ghosts in ThorZaIN mech build to deal with the HT, luckily the ghost price has changed to 200-100 now which is a good thing. So what do you guys think about this? ThorZaIN are you around here? Any thoughts on how you will modify your build. I am quite sad to be honest, I have been winning more and more TvP with iEchoic build and ThorZaIN build come as an interesting alternative and now it got nerfed  | ||
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