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On April 26 2011 07:48 Thorzain wrote:
I never built a marauder! And I don't know exactly when to build my third. I have almost the same build order every game with this until i build my 2nd factory, then it depends more on my opponent.
There's no specific time to get cannons or blueflame, only make sure to have it when you move out. If you know the opponent is going with
LOL woops im sorry, that was a typo, it went 22 supply back to 21 supply back to 22 supply haha thanks for letting me know
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On April 26 2011 07:59 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 07:48 Thorzain wrote:
I never built a marauder! And I don't know exactly when to build my third. I have almost the same build order every game with this until i build my 2nd factory, then it depends more on my opponent.
There's no specific time to get cannons or blueflame, only make sure to have it when you move out. If you know the opponent is going with Thanks for taking your time to post here Thorzain! Your comments (as well as other top gamers) are very much appreciated :D My question to you would be, how do you beat it? Besides any kind of early game all in, what do you normally lose to, if at all?
I think an option protoss players may have if they get to the point where MC had his battle with thorzain is to use your phoenix to pick up your immortals when they get 250 cannoned, and then drop them back down asap
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We need to get him blue. Thanks Thorzain.
I have a question. Why do you do a +2 Armor? Is it for defense against gateway units or something else?
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On April 26 2011 07:59 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 07:48 Thorzain wrote:
I never built a marauder! And I don't know exactly when to build my third. I have almost the same build order every game with this until i build my 2nd factory, then it depends more on my opponent.
There's no specific time to get cannons or blueflame, only make sure to have it when you move out. If you know the opponent is going with Thanks for taking your time to post here Thorzain! Your comments (as well as other top gamers) are very much appreciated :D My question to you would be, how do you beat it? Besides any kind of early game all in, what do you normally lose to, if at all?
Some guy was saying MC was practicing against Cloud and TLO trying to beat the build, so my guess is what he was doing, though MC tends to love using Templars, prob because he is amazing at winning EMP vs Feedback battles (i.e 20+ ghosts feedbacked on Tal'Darim game vs Thorzain lol).
But I think he has the right idea, a few Colossus to steal production time from Starport, Psi-Storm for the blue flames, hallucinations to tank some damage and snipe the raven with blink stalkers.
Though I have a sneaking suspicion he just gets that much stuff because he can get away with it, mass immortal might just work if your a not as good as him  , Strike cannon is great but if you wait at the bottom of a ramp in a concave then he cant push, Thors end up getting killed when before strike cannon ends
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Thanks, didn't realize it was quite that ridiculous :O
@ Hallucinate - I think the mass hallu Immortals were somewhat problematic for MC. His army had to waddle around all of them. I would imagine that hallu air would work better if only to fly over the immortals to make it harder to target them.
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United States7483 Posts
The obvious solution to mass thor is heavy stargate play, I'm not sure why nobody ever mentions this. Void Rays and carriers do fantastically well against heavy mech terran. Void rays and carriers also do pretty well against vikings (carriers are actually cost effective against them, which is pretty funny).
Hallucinating ground units is a terrible idea in any engagement in which your enemy has detection, it simply causes your own units to get in the way of each other, since enemy units ignore detected hallucinations unless there is nothing else in range. Hallucinating colossus can sorta be okay, since it doesn't get in the way, but it'll still be a waste of energy. Hallucinating zealots can be okay, since it can force units in the way back of the enemy army to shoot them instead of pushing forward, and hallucinating air units isn't bad either, if you move them out of detection range you can make the thors shoot them with their anti-air attack.
I'm curious about how well blink stalkers would do against this build, seems it would come down to how well the thor player can defend the harass and how well the protoss player can avoid engaging.
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this build works so well, i only loose sometimes to a well executed 4gate.
i was using the bio into mech build alot before i saw this but i think the way thorzain does it is way stronger.Most of the time i go for blind vikings, even if he isnt going for colossi they do surprisingly well on the ground v immortals&zealots especially when u land them behind the thors.
There are some importans things to know about this build
DONT make just mass thors too much thors will block eachother and u will most likely get killed, i usually use 2-3fax with thors, 1-2fax reactored hellions and 2 starports banshees . Banshees really do a great job in this mix u just scan 1shot the observer and toos dies mostly. I add 2ports and 1factory when taking the third base.U can also add some ghosts in that mix but i like banshees more.
another huge thing is u have to scout with ure hellions if u see the toss taking 3-4bases k´´cause he thinks that you are turtling long time u have to move out earlier.
also use ure hellions to haras there mineral line.
i usually move out with around 160-170 supply which is a perfect number of vikings/thors/hellions and always take scvs with yout to repair.
NEVER target colossi with youre strike cannon when they are far behind the enemy army, dont worry thors are not marines the vikings will do the job fast enought.
ALSO dont let ure hellions run infront of your army cause they are faster, i think the best way is to make the hellions follow the thors so they will just melt the charging zealots.
thats it i really love this build winning like 90% tvp with it, ty thorzain!
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Thanks for all the contributions, updating this thread accordingly.
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On April 26 2011 08:46 Craky wrote:this build works so well, i only loose sometimes to a well executed 4gate. i was using the bio into mech build alot before i saw this but i think the way thorzain does it is way stronger.Most of the time i go for blind vikings, even if he isnt going for colossi they do surprisingly well on the ground v immortals&zealots especially when u land them behind the thors. There are some importans things to know about this build DONT make just mass thors too much thors will block eachother and u will most likely get killed, i usually use 2-3fax with thors, 1-2fax reactored hellions and 2 starports banshees . Banshees really do a great job in this mix u just scan 1shot the observer and toos dies mostly. I add 2ports and 1factory when taking the third base.U can also add some ghosts in that mix but i like banshees more. another huge thing is u have to scout with ure hellions if u see the toss taking 3-4bases k´´cause he thinks that you are turtling long time u have to move out earlier. also use ure hellions to haras there mineral line. i usually move out with around 160-170 supply which is a perfect number of vikings/thors/hellions and always take scvs with yout to repair. NEVER target colossi with youre strike cannon when they are far behind the enemy army, dont worry thors are not marines the vikings will do the job fast enought. ALSO dont let ure hellions run infront of your army cause they are faster, i think the best way is to make the hellions follow the thors so they will just melt the charging zealots. thats it i really love this build winning like 90% tvp with it, ty thorzain!
On testing I find that Hellions do better placed in the front of your Thor army if they are heavy on Immortals as Hellions can tank Immortal shots pretty well. This is also true against Zerg when fighting Ultralisks but not Banes. If heavy Colossus then Hellions in the back. If heavy Immortal then Hellions in the front.
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idk immortals/ultralisk will get cannoned anyway.
my problem is when the hellions are in the front theyll get surrounded by zealots
if they stay behind the thors they always have a nice area to attack
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On April 26 2011 08:19 Teivospy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 07:59 Anihc wrote:On April 26 2011 07:48 Thorzain wrote:
I never built a marauder! And I don't know exactly when to build my third. I have almost the same build order every game with this until i build my 2nd factory, then it depends more on my opponent.
There's no specific time to get cannons or blueflame, only make sure to have it when you move out. If you know the opponent is going with Thanks for taking your time to post here Thorzain! Your comments (as well as other top gamers) are very much appreciated :D My question to you would be, how do you beat it? Besides any kind of early game all in, what do you normally lose to, if at all? I think an option protoss players may have if they get to the point where MC had his battle with thorzain is to use your phoenix to pick up your immortals when they get 250 cannoned, and then drop them back down asap
This is how I used to crush that 2 thor push that was popular just before the repair nerf. It works, but honestly if theyre going this build you should really stop making phoenix. Having to lift 6-7 of your own immortals is INCREDIBLY micro intensive. Honestly MC would have had a chance if he didnt wait for 4 phoenix to send them in. IMO air openers should have one fast phoenix scout. You give away your tech but you can see 100% of what theyre doing too so its like both players playing with their hand face up but you can keep checking up on them while they still have to scan you etc.
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How would mass chargelot/blink stalker with upgrades fare against this build. of course you can vary the build from what you see the toss doing. but i feel like the composition that beat MC in game 5 coulda been beaten by +2/0 mass gateway units with charge and blink.
Since this would negate the 2 armor for the thors, and i feel like the chargelots later did really well once the hellions were cut down a bit. Also feel like MC coulda taken his third faster (this is all assuming he knew this build was coming) and overwhelmed with gateway while slow teching to colossi or getting dts to harrass. MC looked like he went crazy getting tech, (halluc, storm/HT, phoenix)
What do you guys think?
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ThorZaiN is a great player but this build is junk. It is very easily countered, no matter how well executed. Any player using any build can win on any given day, but this is simply not consistent or stable.
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On April 26 2011 10:01 avatarofjustice wrote:
ThorZaiN is a great player but this build is junk. It is very easily countered, no matter how well executed. Any player using any build can win on any given day, but this is simply not consistent or stable.
Where is the evidence in your statement here? MC lost to this build. So did he and his actions fall into your category of "Any player, any build"?
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On April 26 2011 10:01 avatarofjustice wrote:
ThorZaiN is a great player but this build is junk. It is very easily countered, no matter how well executed. Any player using any build can win on any given day, but this is simply not consistent or stable.
Seriously why do people like you post. You trashed this build without any argument or reasoning and all you do is come across as an arrogant, condescending douchebag. That is not the point of these forums, or any forums for that matter.
If you have an opinion, great, we'd love to hear it. Just back it up or take it elsewhere because we don't tolerate trolls or idiots.
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On April 26 2011 10:01 avatarofjustice wrote:
ThorZaiN is a great player but this build is junk. It is very easily countered, no matter how well executed. Any player using any build can win on any given day, but this is simply not consistent or stable.
You have to back such statements with arguments on why otherwise this post is useless spam. It is like saying any Colossus build is junk because Vikings easily counter it without saying anything about it.
On April 26 2011 09:46 Craky wrote:
idk immortals/ultralisk will get cannoned anyway.
my problem is when the hellions are in the front theyll get surrounded by zealots
if they stay behind the thors they always have a nice area to attack
Well if you have enough Thors to cannon every Immortal then sure go for it. Otherwise your Thors will die too fast and you do not want your Thor to die because they provide the highest amount of dps for cost in your army. 1 Thor has more total dps than 3 Zealots and they both take 6 supply. You do not want your Thor to die easily. Sure if there are no heavy hitters then you can afford for them to take the initial punishment.
Also cannons are not worth using on Ultralisks as it does not stun them. Maybe in a perfect scenario where you have 6 Ultra vs 6 Thor would it be worth it otherwise it is better to just use normal attacks. The cannons provide slightly better dps than normal unupgraded shots and Hellions would provide the minor damage to kill them in one sweep.
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How you beat it - Mass Carriers own em up even if targeted, even with a retinue of 10-12 vikings because carriers are massive so no splash from javelin missile and armored so Thors get no bonus..Problem is transition when your first counter, the 4 gate when/if it fails.
I have played and tested this for two weeks now and mass thor, with good support, armor upgrades and 250mm cannon just own everything else protoss has.
-Zealots just get wrecked by thors and hellions and takes 50 hits to kill an upgraded thor.
-Stalkers similar.
-No sentry FF obviously works so they get wrecked.
-Immortals one shot dead to 250mm cannon.
-Colossi one shot dead to 250mm cannon..
-Void ray clump and javelin splash just wrecks them. One game I had 30!! and his 10 thors killed them all and only lost 3.
Only carriers with +3 attack. takes about 6 to wreck 8 thor. Also keeping 10-12 Phoenix, and since they are +3 too, they can actually start winning against Vikings. (he won't have any upgrades since he can't afford it)
Thorzain posted in last thread about this build after he beat Tyler with it as well. Much more math in strategy in there by ThorZain..
You're awesome man!
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this sounds like a deadly build no one really I've seen has a solid game plan for midgame carriers. But I've tried to go them instead of colossi but it gets really hard if its got marines in it.
anyone try cannon void ray against this? I know that sounds really newby to be making cannons agressivly across the map but its allowing me to zone out the terran so that I can micro down the marines with my 25 30 void rays until it beacomes a deathball and transition to mass carrier.
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On April 26 2011 12:43 sermokala wrote:
this sounds like a deadly build no one really I've seen has a solid game plan for midgame carriers. But I've tried to go them instead of colossi but it gets really hard if its got marines in it.
anyone try cannon void ray against this? I know that sounds really newby to be making cannons agressivly across the map but its allowing me to zone out the terran so that I can micro down the marines with my 25 30 void rays until it beacomes a deathball and transition to mass carrier.
Yeah I thought that too, DL This http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/unit-tester/ and try high numbers of VR's vs 8-10 thor it's hilarious how fast they go down.
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EPT
