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On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote:
you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up.
See, that's why you fail right there. You've convinced yourself that carriers are unobtainable, when I'm sure several terrans - myself included - have lost mass thor games when the protoss switched to carriers.
Here's one of the best posts I've read on TL.net recently - by Ezekyle - regarding thors:
[...]Nevertheless, the ways to deal with to thor/marine do exist, even if it is carrier/HT/collosus. The issue then becomes not 'thor/marine is unbeatable' but 'how do I get carrier/HT/collosus out in time'. In the past no Zergs worried about void ray/collosus/sentry because it's so absurdly gas-heavy that no one could ever make that in a real game, but then people figured out how to do it and suddenly it's not only practical but the dominant strategy in a matchup. You can't just dismiss every way of handling thor play because you played one game against a strategy you've never seen before and lost
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216605¤tpage=192#3822
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On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote:Because Thorzain, the supposed counter unit, the immortal, just gets evaporated by strike cannon. Try and play protoss and beat your mass thor build, you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up. By definition if something has no counter it's imba so mass thor was for all intents and purposes imba. I think blizz knew this going in which is why they had energy bar in the first place but it upset users who never researched strike cannon and just had a couple thors around that thier expensive thor would get zapped just wondering around the map. So they took energy bar out. But once you showed the abusive tactic of mass thor they reverted to having a counter. I don't really agree about one dimensional. That's why blizz only gave them 200pts of energy and it will only sorta of hurt them. One not only needs to land feedbacks which is countered by ghost a protoss still needs a formidable force to deal with thors since as you have noted before their armor upgrade put them over the top and they do massive ground DPS. At least we will get to see immortal stand a chance now. Please don't feel bad about HT's being able to damage half your units because terran has Ghost which damages ALL protoss units not just half. 
It's difficult for P to get the carrier with upgrades to deal with Thor but let me remind you that it's equally difficult for T to get a critical mass of Thors without getting killed by 4 gate or 3 gate VR from P players. It's a fair game and both sides have trade-offs.
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You can beat thors with just land units if you do it properly, dont get me wrong the build is really good on the right maps. But honestly this build only works on maps were there are really small chokes and the 3th base is within push radios of your own 3th base and main. Aka that you can push without having your entire main exposed when you try to attack. Try it on tal darim/shatter temple/terminus/esl neo enigma/crevasse for example and glhf with its not going to work.
Also if protoss knows your are going to do this build he can just double expand and go to 3 robo for collo/stalker/immo and 2 forges for fast upgrades, then amove when hes maxed out and go afk. Its a nice build to have in your arsenal but not overpowerd/broken not even close.
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On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote:
Because Thorzain, the supposed counter unit, the immortal, just gets evaporated by strike cannon. Try and play protoss and beat your mass thor build, you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up. By definition if something has no counter it's imba so mass thor was for all intents and purposes imba. I think blizz knew this going in which is why they had energy bar in the first place but it upset users who never researched strike cannon and just had a couple thors around that thier expensive thor would get zapped just wondering around the map. So they took energy bar out. But once you showed the abusive tactic of mass thor they reverted to having a counter.
So every Terran using this build has a 100% winrate in TvP hm?... Every protoss in the world has searched for months for an answer and there is none. The build is impossible to beat.
Right...
Use some logic here: if this build is unbeatable why do most Terrans still use MMMGV?
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
What I don't understand is why people assume these patch changes are definitely needed just because they are in blue writing and posted by Blizzard. Zealot build time has been changed back and forth like 4 times so far, plus bunker changed about 100 times. just blindly assuming blizz is making the right change is stupid
personally i think it sucks that this build is no longer viable if these patch changes make it to live servers.... also what are you even talking about tdt? no one said it was unbeatable, and you dont need +3 air weapons either for carriers to be good vs thors feel free to use your brain instead of being a mindless sheep
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On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote:I don't really agree about one dimensional. That's why blizz only gave them 200pts of energy and it will only sorta of hurt them.
LOL... Only "sort of hurt them."
Remind me because I forgot... how often was strike cannon used in TvP before energy was removed in 1.3.2?
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On May 06 2011 06:00 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote:
you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up. See, that's why you fail right there. You've convinced yourself that carriers are unobtainable, when I'm sure several terrans - myself included - have lost mass thor games when the protoss switched to carriers. Here's one of the best posts I've read on TL.net recently - by Ezekyle - regarding thors: Show nested quote +[...]Nevertheless, the ways to deal with to thor/marine do exist, even if it is carrier/HT/collosus. The issue then becomes not 'thor/marine is unbeatable' but 'how do I get carrier/HT/collosus out in time'. In the past no Zergs worried about void ray/collosus/sentry because it's so absurdly gas-heavy that no one could ever make that in a real game, but then people figured out how to do it and suddenly it's not only practical but the dominant strategy in a matchup. You can't just dismiss every way of handling thor play because you played one game against a strategy you've never seen before and lost http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216605¤tpage=192#3822
I did not say they were unobtainable I said they leave you too exposed and take too long effectivly killing strat unless Terran turtles and you recognize mass Thor attempt in time.
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On May 06 2011 06:48 secondparttohell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote:Because Thorzain, the supposed counter unit, the immortal, just gets evaporated by strike cannon. Try and play protoss and beat your mass thor build, you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up. By definition if something has no counter it's imba so mass thor was for all intents and purposes imba. I think blizz knew this going in which is why they had energy bar in the first place but it upset users who never researched strike cannon and just had a couple thors around that thier expensive thor would get zapped just wondering around the map. So they took energy bar out. But once you showed the abusive tactic of mass thor they reverted to having a counter. I don't really agree about one dimensional. That's why blizz only gave them 200pts of energy and it will only sorta of hurt them. One not only needs to land feedbacks which is countered by ghost a protoss still needs a formidable force to deal with thors since as you have noted before their armor upgrade put them over the top and they do massive ground DPS. At least we will get to see immortal stand a chance now. Please don't feel bad about HT's being able to damage half your units because terran has Ghost which damages ALL protoss units not just half. It's difficult for P to get the carrier with upgrades to deal with Thor but let me remind you that it's equally difficult for T to get a critical mass of Thors without getting killed by 4 gate or 3 gate VR from P players. It's a fair game and both sides have trade-offs.
True. In another thread regarding this build I mentioned as protoss you gotta kill it early while only 2-3 are on the field and Terran is weaker otherwise it's GG.
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On May 06 2011 07:12 4Servy wrote:
You can beat thors with just land units if you do it properly, dont get me wrong the build is really good on the right maps. But honestly this build only works on maps were there are really small chokes and the 3th base is within push radios of your own 3th base and main. Aka that you can push without having your entire main exposed when you try to attack. Try it on tal darim/shatter temple/terminus/esl neo enigma/crevasse for example and glhf with its not going to work.
Also if protoss knows your are going to do this build he can just double expand and go to 3 robo for collo/stalker/immo and 2 forges for fast upgrades, then amove when hes maxed out and go afk. Its a nice build to have in your arsenal but not overpowerd/broken not even close.
I'd like to see you try in a custom against +2 or +3 armored up 8-10 thors with strike cannon upgrade and a retinue of 10 vikings, 10 SCVs, 10 Marauders, 10 BFH, and a Raven I have about 20 games and everything fails but 8-10 carriers with a few Phoenix to take out vikings.
Zealots need like 50 hits to kill a thor meanwhile Thors are two shotting Zealots and BFH roasting Zealots.
Stalkers similar pathetic story. They just evaporate.
VR clump because they are not massive like carriers and go down quick to vikings and Thor's splash in addition to Thor's huge attack bonus vs unarmored which splashes too.
Collosi get one shotted by strike cannon
Immortals get one shotted by strike cannon
HT useless
DT useless because there is one Raven on build plus ever present scan
etc
Only thing I found to counter was carriers which are immune to splash, are armored so no Thor attack bonus, and because you're doing +3 anyway for interceptors Phoenix start beating protection viking too.
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On May 06 2011 07:29 Moja wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote:
Because Thorzain, the supposed counter unit, the immortal, just gets evaporated by strike cannon. Try and play protoss and beat your mass thor build, you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up. By definition if something has no counter it's imba so mass thor was for all intents and purposes imba. I think blizz knew this going in which is why they had energy bar in the first place but it upset users who never researched strike cannon and just had a couple thors around that thier expensive thor would get zapped just wondering around the map. So they took energy bar out. But once you showed the abusive tactic of mass thor they reverted to having a counter. So every Terran using this build has a 100% winrate in TvP hm?... Every protoss in the world has searched for months for an answer and there is none. The build is impossible to beat. Right... Use some logic here: if this build is unbeatable why do most Terrans still use MMMGV?
Because it's new, ThorZain was pioneer, it's hard to tech to and you need an open map but I've never seen it lose when allowed to go unchecked. Blizz knows what they are doing by allowing a counter other than carriers. Blizz knew it before game even came out hence energy bar before. No it's not impossible to beat but nearly.
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Thorzain himself only used it once for each Bo5. He played bio for the rest of his games, probably due to the map geography (large, wide open maps are awful for thors). Protoss can basically backstab you once you move out and win the base race with ease. You also don't have to sit and wait for the Terran to attack. If he's massing thors there are multiple timings where he's weak to different pushes. Or you can take a fast third and overwhelm him. There are lots of possible answers and it's much better for Blizzard to sit back and let the game evolve rather than pushing the same MMM vs gateway+colossus that we've had since beta. I for one would be glad to see warp prisms or carriers see some use as a response to this.
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On May 05 2011 06:45 Thorzain wrote:
I dont get why templars are going to have to counter almost every unit the terran has.
They already counter MMM.
They counter banshees, raven and battlecruiser play.
Now they will counter Thors too?
"Well just use ghosts to counter templars!"
I just don't like only having one way in dealing with a certain unit, and that way being pretty "risky" (Even though ghosts "counters" templars, templars "counters" ghosts too).
If blizzard saw a problem in Thor play i just wish they would have tried to balance it in another way (don't ask me how).
I'm not whining because I don't think this will make protoss imba vs terran in any way, I just think that it will make things more one-dimensional.
Protoss could say the exact same thing about Ghosts, there is never a situation where not having a ghost is ever better than having a Ghost in TvP. The Templar it self doesn't counter anything, it only does well in combination with other units. It is like the Infestor, or the the Ghost.
If anything it makes things less one-dimensional, it means Toss has to use a variety of units to overcome a particular task rather than having to rely on X unit everytime Terran does Y. It means your play has to be less one dimensional, it can no longer rely on just Strike Cannoning Immortals, there is never always going to be Templars to feedback your Thors and there is never always going to be Immortals to make use of the Templar feedback.
The games will become varied, you have no idea what will happen now, if a Ghost manages to get an EMP it can completely change the situation, likewise the same happens if the Protoss player gets great feedbacks.
Resources among Protoss will now be spread out, you will now have less of certain units in place of Templars, this might mean less upgrades, less production, who knows really. The presence of Templars and their usefulness also allows Protoss to feasibly preform a Carrier transition. This small change gives more opportunity for the better player to out play the weaker.
Without this change, your build and how the Protoss responds is very systematic, wouldn't you say?
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On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote:Because Thorzain, the supposed counter unit, the immortal, just gets evaporated by strike cannon. Try and play protoss and beat your mass thor build, you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up. By definition if something has no counter it's imba so mass thor was for all intents and purposes imba. I think blizz knew this going in which is why they had energy bar in the first place but it upset users who never researched strike cannon and just had a couple thors around that thier expensive thor would get zapped just wondering around the map. So they took energy bar out. But once you showed the abusive tactic of mass thor they reverted to having a counter. I don't really agree about one dimensional. That's why blizz only gave them 200pts of energy and it will only sorta of hurt them. One not only needs to land feedbacks which is countered by ghost a protoss still needs a formidable force to deal with thors since as you have noted before their armor upgrade put them over the top and they do massive ground DPS. At least we will get to see immortal stand a chance now. Please don't feel bad about HT's being able to damage half your units because terran has Ghost which damages ALL protoss units not just half.
no real proof just useless theorycrafting, i tried mass thors even with ghosts many times and got run over by toss army anyway, tell me if this strategy was so unstoppable why nobody used it, there are no gsl terrans winning and dominating tvp with thors, its just low league players which are happy from the nerf and try to make justifications just for sake of doing it
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I would just like to point out on the immo vs thor, the strike cannon only really works if you have an equal amount of thors and immo. otherwise the thors get some of them and get destroyed while they channeling the cast
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To be honest I try to use this build this day and it doesn't work that well anymore.
First is the problem in the build up, since the opening is one rax FE and if Protoss go 3 gate robo with 3 immortal and hit you with the front and you only have one thor and one tank + marine and bunkers with mass repair it won't help.
Second thing is now with the range increase Thor aren't that effective against a zealot archon + some immortals anymore. If you want to have enough ghosts for EMP the archon you won't have strike cannon so the immortal will do serious damage. If you have strike cannon you can't really deal with the Archon effectively.
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dude, last post was almost 6 months ago 
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It's funny this got necro'd, I was just clicking around liquipedia and wondering how I'd go about asking if this is still a viable build. >.>
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On November 02 2011 01:07 thOr6136 wrote:dude, last post was almost 6 months ago
Back when strike cannons were still cooldown and didn't require energy, which is what made the build so powerful. So powerful, in fact, that strike cannons were nerfed into oblivion less than a month after this game...
Thread resurrection fail.
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yeah it would have caught on had they not nerfed it.
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EPT
