Just finished dissecting the thorzain build against oGs.mc game 5 and wanted to share it with you guys. And its a pretty mean, does anyone have any inputs or thoughts of it?
General Idea of this build The sturdiness and the power of the +2 armored thor and the ability to use the 35mm cannon at such a large range is hard to stop. Especially if you have a raven denying scouting observers. Having such a large surface area so zealots cannot get the surround and blue flame helions doing double the damage to zealots, its a pretty mean ball of destruction. This build is unique and unseen and the only counter i can think is an abundance of immortals or/and carriers.
+2 armor Thor Build by Thorzain 10 supply 12 barrack 13 refinery 15 orbital 15 marine 16 supply 17 marine 18 factory 19 second refinery 20 marine 22 tech lab on barrack 22 bunker 22 marine 23 supply - Swap the tech lab on barrack with factory 24 siege tank 28 marine 32 supply 32 marine 33 Command center 36 starport 37 helion 38 marine 39 supply 41 armory - switch factory tech lab with starport 42 raven 43 tech lab 45 2nd orbital 46 marine 47 thor 53 banshee 58 Ground plate upgrade for thor - After you land your expansion, build 2 refineries right away and build 3 bunekrs 104 Ground plate upgrade #2 and get blue flame upgrade 117 Third CC 126 35mm strike cannon - you want 3 factories with 2 tech labs, 1 reactor, and 1 starports with reactors
and reactor when its done on that starport
Key Points
Use raven to deny scouting observer You want about 6-8 vikings,1 raven You want about 4-6 helions You want about 6-8 Thors and only attack when you have +2 amor Use your 35mm cannon on the collosi Put a couple of point defense drones down during the fight Bring a couple of scv's after the fight You want to attack around 160-170 supply Making sentries a liability of supply for the opponent, thors render forcefields useless Here is a replay of Thorzain using this strategy perfectly against oGs.MC
Why the +2 armor Upgrades on thors? Thorzain explained: + Show Spoiler +
"It's mostly to be able to fight heavy gateway units compositions, as they deal relatively low damage but shoot fast (zealots have 2 attacks for example). This lets me worry more about the actual "power units" so to say, the units that aren't gateway units. And as long as i can counter them properly (colossus/air = vikings, mass immortals = more Thor heavy) I feel comfortable in the big fight.
Another important factor to point out is that I tried in the unit test map, and attack upgrades doesn't change how many hits a Thor kills either a stalker or a zealot, nor how many hits a Hellion needs to kill a zealot. So even though it will affect somewhat, since I didn't test all the various X Thor hits X hellion hits on unit X with and without attack upgrades, it's fairly useless. Armor however, lets Hellions take 1 more zealot and stalker hits, and lets Thors take many more zealot/stalker hits."
There's no specific time to get cannons or blueflame, only make sure to have it when you move out. If you know the opponent is going with. I have almost the same build order every game with this until i build my 2nd factory, then it depends more on my opponent..
Weaknesses: Very aggressive 4 warpgate rush, carriers(because thors will automatically target air first when you want them to target ground
If you want more strategies like this dissected, come to www.TerranSC.blogspot.com , it includes other build orders/tips/guides and top tier strategy dissected
Well, this is very dumbed-down; you basically give instructions on how to repeat what Thorzain did in that particular game. Perhaps you should rewrite it as more of a strategy (logic as opposed to build order)?
Regarding your key points section, all of this is situational as well; will you really build vikings if there is nothing for them to shoot? You need way more hellions than that also as chargelots are the primary counter to thors. Waiting until 6-8 thors isn't correct either; critical mass for this unit is more like 3-5 due to their size and cost. Also, you would ideally send SCVs during a push, not after.
Also, you left out Thorzain's replay link. Perhaps you should include some of your own as well? And it would probably be wise to add a spoiler tag for people who have not watched the game.
It's a new style, so I'm definitely not used to playing against it, and that's partly why it's so effective. The hellions, +armor, and smaller surface area of multiple thors (as opposed to one thor) makes chargelots not a great response.
The best response I've found so far to thor-based play is carrier-based play, with blink stalkers to take out vikings.
Just curious what makes this build so unique compared to the standard Marine Raven Thor build? Also when is stim, conc shells and combat shield researched?
That kind of build order is pretty ridiculous, and not particularly useful. Perhaps you should generalize a bit more, rather than give detailed food lists up to 126 food -_-.
Up to around 20 food can be useful to see significant changes, after that, it has more to do with reading your opponent and making on the fly decisions.
So i'm thinking giving how long it too for the push to come during the actual match, some combination of dark templar colossus stalker or dark templar carrier stalker should of been able to handle this with very very good positioning and micro.
The problem with his push is, what do you kill first? Everything does so much damage.
Also, to all the boohoo i dont want a list of food, Thorzain almost didnt lose any units.
Actually, Playing through following this list a few times would probably get the basics of the build down, and an easy guide could be created after doing that. Please do this op otherwise "discussing" this build would be incredibly difficult.
It's great to look at this to use it as a reference so that you can know general timings and stuff for the build, but it'd only be wrong to strictly memorize and replicate this religiously.
I've been working with a friends Mech style which is rather similar to this. It relies on heavy ghost/mech play with a lot of hellions and transitions into viking/thor/tank/ghost with marine/hellion mineral sinks. Also, i've been trying to lessen the amount of vikings with a slow push using missile turrets as colossus defense and obs denier.
On April 26 2011 06:37 Shaithis wrote: Well, this is very dumbed-down; you basically give instructions on how to repeat what Thorzain did in that particular game. Perhaps you should rewrite it as more of a strategy (logic as opposed to build order)?
Regarding your key points section, all of this is situational as well; will you really build vikings if there is nothing for them to shoot? You need way more hellions than that also as chargelots are the primary counter to thors. Waiting until 6-8 thors isn't correct either; critical mass for this unit is more like 3-5 due to their size and cost. Also, you would ideally send SCVs during a push, not after.
Also, you left out Thorzain's replay link. Perhaps you should include some of your own as well? And it would probably be wise to add a spoiler tag for people who have not watched the game.
On April 26 2011 06:37 Rubix314 wrote: It's a new style, so I'm definitely not used to playing against it, and that's partly why it's so effective. The hellions, +armor, and smaller surface area of multiple thors (as opposed to one thor) makes chargelots not a great response.
The best response I've found so far to thor-based play is carrier-based play, with blink stalkers to take out vikings.
Immortals will beat Thors for supply, despite EMPs and or strike cannons. This happens, at least in bigger fights, but immortals still do well in smaller fights.
On April 26 2011 06:43 SungMingCho wrote: Wow guys... back off him...
He never claimed this was "Thorzain Strategy" ... he simply said it was the build. This is great for anyone wondering the basics of the build.
This. He has gone over the build order. Anyone wanting to discuss the strategy should do so if they want but this guy has done everything right.
Not. A build order to 126 supply is pretty useless. What the OP has done is horrible for anyone wondering the basics of the build. Can we get a generalization of the build?
EDIT: And not only is this "build order" useless, it's not even accurate...
On April 26 2011 06:37 Rubix314 wrote: It's a new style, so I'm definitely not used to playing against it, and that's partly why it's so effective. The hellions, +armor, and smaller surface area of multiple thors (as opposed to one thor) makes chargelots not a great response.
The best response I've found so far to thor-based play is carrier-based play, with blink stalkers to take out vikings.
Immortals will beat Thors for supply, despite EMPs and or strike cannons. This happens, at least in bigger fights, but immortals still do well in smaller fights.
Uh...show me a replay? EMP and strike cannon both make immortals useless.
I personally think this build is very sustainable in high masters game, considering i tried this myself and had some success with it. People unfamiliar with this build dont know how to react and transitioning to carriers would be ridiculous and they would consider to get sentries, atleast from my experience.
On April 26 2011 07:14 CosmicSpiral wrote: I don't see much of an analysis here.
He said in the other thread that he builds viking only as a reaction to Colossus, otherwise he focuses more on ground.
He just seems to wing it after the expansion, there is no real consistency when he attacks i.e Against Tyler he was about to hit max then Tyler engaged and then against MC he hits sooner, probably a mix of game sense and knowing when your composition is at its strongest
I run a very similar build, and it's weakness is tbh a great concave/catching the opponent while he doesn't have one. Even if chargelots do better against a not tightly fit ball, scvs get a better surface area behind, but most importantly, if you are immo heavy, it's brutal if all the thors can't start the fight off with 350mm. Basically if the thors can't 350mm at the same time(And the toss has decent concave/micro) the thors just keep dieing before they can take their respective immo out, and it snowballs very fast until you have no thors left and since it's so slow reinforcing, you have lost.
Edit: And imo carriers are a bad decision. They won't be upgraded and thors do pretty well against interceptors. In general the standard PvT deathball does well, aslong as you get better positioning.
I never built a marauder! And I don't know exactly when to build my third. I have almost the same build order every game with this until i build my 2nd factory, then it depends more on my opponent.
There's no specific time to get cannons or blueflame, only make sure to have it when you move out. If you know the opponent is going with
On April 26 2011 07:48 Thorzain wrote: I never built a marauder! And I don't know exactly when to build my third. I have almost the same build order every game with this until i build my 2nd factory, then it depends more on my opponent.
There's no specific time to get cannons or blueflame, only make sure to have it when you move out. If you know the opponent is going with
Thanks for taking your time to post here Thorzain! Your comments (as well as other top gamers) are very much appreciated :D
My question to you would be, how do you beat it? Besides any kind of early game all in, what do you normally lose to, if at all?
On April 26 2011 07:48 Thorzain wrote: I never built a marauder! And I don't know exactly when to build my third. I have almost the same build order every game with this until i build my 2nd factory, then it depends more on my opponent.
There's no specific time to get cannons or blueflame, only make sure to have it when you move out. If you know the opponent is going with
LOL woops im sorry, that was a typo, it went 22 supply back to 21 supply back to 22 supply haha thanks for letting me know
On April 26 2011 07:48 Thorzain wrote: I never built a marauder! And I don't know exactly when to build my third. I have almost the same build order every game with this until i build my 2nd factory, then it depends more on my opponent.
There's no specific time to get cannons or blueflame, only make sure to have it when you move out. If you know the opponent is going with
Thanks for taking your time to post here Thorzain! Your comments (as well as other top gamers) are very much appreciated :D
My question to you would be, how do you beat it? Besides any kind of early game all in, what do you normally lose to, if at all?
I think an option protoss players may have if they get to the point where MC had his battle with thorzain is to use your phoenix to pick up your immortals when they get 250 cannoned, and then drop them back down asap
On April 26 2011 07:48 Thorzain wrote: I never built a marauder! And I don't know exactly when to build my third. I have almost the same build order every game with this until i build my 2nd factory, then it depends more on my opponent.
There's no specific time to get cannons or blueflame, only make sure to have it when you move out. If you know the opponent is going with
Thanks for taking your time to post here Thorzain! Your comments (as well as other top gamers) are very much appreciated :D
My question to you would be, how do you beat it? Besides any kind of early game all in, what do you normally lose to, if at all?
Some guy was saying MC was practicing against Cloud and TLO trying to beat the build, so my guess is what he was doing, though MC tends to love using Templars, prob because he is amazing at winning EMP vs Feedback battles (i.e 20+ ghosts feedbacked on Tal'Darim game vs Thorzain lol).
But I think he has the right idea, a few Colossus to steal production time from Starport, Psi-Storm for the blue flames, hallucinations to tank some damage and snipe the raven with blink stalkers.
Though I have a sneaking suspicion he just gets that much stuff because he can get away with it, mass immortal might just work if your a not as good as him , Strike cannon is great but if you wait at the bottom of a ramp in a concave then he cant push, Thors end up getting killed when before strike cannon ends
Thanks, didn't realize it was quite that ridiculous :O
@ Hallucinate - I think the mass hallu Immortals were somewhat problematic for MC. His army had to waddle around all of them. I would imagine that hallu air would work better if only to fly over the immortals to make it harder to target them.
The obvious solution to mass thor is heavy stargate play, I'm not sure why nobody ever mentions this. Void Rays and carriers do fantastically well against heavy mech terran. Void rays and carriers also do pretty well against vikings (carriers are actually cost effective against them, which is pretty funny).
Hallucinating ground units is a terrible idea in any engagement in which your enemy has detection, it simply causes your own units to get in the way of each other, since enemy units ignore detected hallucinations unless there is nothing else in range. Hallucinating colossus can sorta be okay, since it doesn't get in the way, but it'll still be a waste of energy. Hallucinating zealots can be okay, since it can force units in the way back of the enemy army to shoot them instead of pushing forward, and hallucinating air units isn't bad either, if you move them out of detection range you can make the thors shoot them with their anti-air attack.
I'm curious about how well blink stalkers would do against this build, seems it would come down to how well the thor player can defend the harass and how well the protoss player can avoid engaging.
this build works so well, i only loose sometimes to a well executed 4gate. i was using the bio into mech build alot before i saw this but i think the way thorzain does it is way stronger.Most of the time i go for blind vikings, even if he isnt going for colossi they do surprisingly well on the ground v immortals&zealots especially when u land them behind the thors.
There are some importans things to know about this build DONT make just mass thors too much thors will block eachother and u will most likely get killed, i usually use 2-3fax with thors, 1-2fax reactored hellions and 2 starports banshees . Banshees really do a great job in this mix u just scan 1shot the observer and toos dies mostly. I add 2ports and 1factory when taking the third base.U can also add some ghosts in that mix but i like banshees more. another huge thing is u have to scout with ure hellions if u see the toss taking 3-4bases k´´cause he thinks that you are turtling long time u have to move out earlier. also use ure hellions to haras there mineral line. i usually move out with around 160-170 supply which is a perfect number of vikings/thors/hellions and always take scvs with yout to repair. NEVER target colossi with youre strike cannon when they are far behind the enemy army, dont worry thors are not marines the vikings will do the job fast enought. ALSO dont let ure hellions run infront of your army cause they are faster, i think the best way is to make the hellions follow the thors so they will just melt the charging zealots.
thats it i really love this build winning like 90% tvp with it, ty thorzain!
On April 26 2011 08:46 Craky wrote: this build works so well, i only loose sometimes to a well executed 4gate. i was using the bio into mech build alot before i saw this but i think the way thorzain does it is way stronger.Most of the time i go for blind vikings, even if he isnt going for colossi they do surprisingly well on the ground v immortals&zealots especially when u land them behind the thors.
There are some importans things to know about this build DONT make just mass thors too much thors will block eachother and u will most likely get killed, i usually use 2-3fax with thors, 1-2fax reactored hellions and 2 starports banshees . Banshees really do a great job in this mix u just scan 1shot the observer and toos dies mostly. I add 2ports and 1factory when taking the third base.U can also add some ghosts in that mix but i like banshees more. another huge thing is u have to scout with ure hellions if u see the toss taking 3-4bases k´´cause he thinks that you are turtling long time u have to move out earlier. also use ure hellions to haras there mineral line. i usually move out with around 160-170 supply which is a perfect number of vikings/thors/hellions and always take scvs with yout to repair. NEVER target colossi with youre strike cannon when they are far behind the enemy army, dont worry thors are not marines the vikings will do the job fast enought. ALSO dont let ure hellions run infront of your army cause they are faster, i think the best way is to make the hellions follow the thors so they will just melt the charging zealots.
thats it i really love this build winning like 90% tvp with it, ty thorzain!
On testing I find that Hellions do better placed in the front of your Thor army if they are heavy on Immortals as Hellions can tank Immortal shots pretty well. This is also true against Zerg when fighting Ultralisks but not Banes. If heavy Colossus then Hellions in the back. If heavy Immortal then Hellions in the front.
idk immortals/ultralisk will get cannoned anyway. my problem is when the hellions are in the front theyll get surrounded by zealots if they stay behind the thors they always have a nice area to attack
On April 26 2011 07:48 Thorzain wrote: I never built a marauder! And I don't know exactly when to build my third. I have almost the same build order every game with this until i build my 2nd factory, then it depends more on my opponent.
There's no specific time to get cannons or blueflame, only make sure to have it when you move out. If you know the opponent is going with
Thanks for taking your time to post here Thorzain! Your comments (as well as other top gamers) are very much appreciated :D
My question to you would be, how do you beat it? Besides any kind of early game all in, what do you normally lose to, if at all?
I think an option protoss players may have if they get to the point where MC had his battle with thorzain is to use your phoenix to pick up your immortals when they get 250 cannoned, and then drop them back down asap
This is how I used to crush that 2 thor push that was popular just before the repair nerf. It works, but honestly if theyre going this build you should really stop making phoenix. Having to lift 6-7 of your own immortals is INCREDIBLY micro intensive. Honestly MC would have had a chance if he didnt wait for 4 phoenix to send them in. IMO air openers should have one fast phoenix scout. You give away your tech but you can see 100% of what theyre doing too so its like both players playing with their hand face up but you can keep checking up on them while they still have to scan you etc.
How would mass chargelot/blink stalker with upgrades fare against this build. of course you can vary the build from what you see the toss doing. but i feel like the composition that beat MC in game 5 coulda been beaten by +2/0 mass gateway units with charge and blink.
Since this would negate the 2 armor for the thors, and i feel like the chargelots later did really well once the hellions were cut down a bit. Also feel like MC coulda taken his third faster (this is all assuming he knew this build was coming) and overwhelmed with gateway while slow teching to colossi or getting dts to harrass. MC looked like he went crazy getting tech, (halluc, storm/HT, phoenix)
ThorZaiN is a great player but this build is junk. It is very easily countered, no matter how well executed. Any player using any build can win on any given day, but this is simply not consistent or stable.
On April 26 2011 10:01 avatarofjustice wrote: ThorZaiN is a great player but this build is junk. It is very easily countered, no matter how well executed. Any player using any build can win on any given day, but this is simply not consistent or stable.
Where is the evidence in your statement here? MC lost to this build. So did he and his actions fall into your category of "Any player, any build"?
On April 26 2011 10:01 avatarofjustice wrote: ThorZaiN is a great player but this build is junk. It is very easily countered, no matter how well executed. Any player using any build can win on any given day, but this is simply not consistent or stable.
Seriously why do people like you post. You trashed this build without any argument or reasoning and all you do is come across as an arrogant, condescending douchebag. That is not the point of these forums, or any forums for that matter.
If you have an opinion, great, we'd love to hear it. Just back it up or take it elsewhere because we don't tolerate trolls or idiots.
On April 26 2011 10:01 avatarofjustice wrote: ThorZaiN is a great player but this build is junk. It is very easily countered, no matter how well executed. Any player using any build can win on any given day, but this is simply not consistent or stable.
You have to back such statements with arguments on why otherwise this post is useless spam. It is like saying any Colossus build is junk because Vikings easily counter it without saying anything about it.
On April 26 2011 09:46 Craky wrote: idk immortals/ultralisk will get cannoned anyway. my problem is when the hellions are in the front theyll get surrounded by zealots if they stay behind the thors they always have a nice area to attack
Well if you have enough Thors to cannon every Immortal then sure go for it. Otherwise your Thors will die too fast and you do not want your Thor to die because they provide the highest amount of dps for cost in your army. 1 Thor has more total dps than 3 Zealots and they both take 6 supply. You do not want your Thor to die easily. Sure if there are no heavy hitters then you can afford for them to take the initial punishment.
Also cannons are not worth using on Ultralisks as it does not stun them. Maybe in a perfect scenario where you have 6 Ultra vs 6 Thor would it be worth it otherwise it is better to just use normal attacks. The cannons provide slightly better dps than normal unupgraded shots and Hellions would provide the minor damage to kill them in one sweep.
How you beat it - Mass Carriers own em up even if targeted, even with a retinue of 10-12 vikings because carriers are massive so no splash from javelin missile and armored so Thors get no bonus..Problem is transition when your first counter, the 4 gate when/if it fails.
I have played and tested this for two weeks now and mass thor, with good support, armor upgrades and 250mm cannon just own everything else protoss has.
-Zealots just get wrecked by thors and hellions and takes 50 hits to kill an upgraded thor. -Stalkers similar. -No sentry FF obviously works so they get wrecked. -Immortals one shot dead to 250mm cannon. -Colossi one shot dead to 250mm cannon.. -Void ray clump and javelin splash just wrecks them. One game I had 30!! and his 10 thors killed them all and only lost 3.
Only carriers with +3 attack. takes about 6 to wreck 8 thor. Also keeping 10-12 Phoenix, and since they are +3 too, they can actually start winning against Vikings. (he won't have any upgrades since he can't afford it)
Thorzain posted in last thread about this build after he beat Tyler with it as well. Much more math in strategy in there by ThorZain..
this sounds like a deadly build no one really I've seen has a solid game plan for midgame carriers. But I've tried to go them instead of colossi but it gets really hard if its got marines in it.
anyone try cannon void ray against this? I know that sounds really newby to be making cannons agressivly across the map but its allowing me to zone out the terran so that I can micro down the marines with my 25 30 void rays until it beacomes a deathball and transition to mass carrier.
On April 26 2011 12:43 sermokala wrote: this sounds like a deadly build no one really I've seen has a solid game plan for midgame carriers. But I've tried to go them instead of colossi but it gets really hard if its got marines in it.
anyone try cannon void ray against this? I know that sounds really newby to be making cannons agressivly across the map but its allowing me to zone out the terran so that I can micro down the marines with my 25 30 void rays until it beacomes a deathball and transition to mass carrier.
-Void ray clump and javelin splash just wrecks them. One game I had 30!! and his 10 thors killed them all and only lost 3.
Only carriers with +3 attack. takes about 6 to wreck 8 thor. Also keeping 10-12 Phoenix, and since they are +3 too, they can actually start winning against Vikings. (he won't have any upgrades since he can't afford it) !
don't clump your void rays? I've welped thors with just a little bit of lateral spread to them. they have a nasty addition with the air upgrades and the +30% to massive and on top of +6.7 to armored
-Void ray clump and javelin splash just wrecks them. One game I had 30!! and his 10 thors killed them all and only lost 3.
Only carriers with +3 attack. takes about 6 to wreck 8 thor. Also keeping 10-12 Phoenix, and since they are +3 too, they can actually start winning against Vikings. (he won't have any upgrades since he can't afford it) !
don't clump your void rays? I've welped thors with just a little bit of lateral spread to them. they have a nasty addition with the air upgrades and the +30% to massive and on top of +6.7 to armored
Thats probably true but I have a hard time positioning them like that and target firing.
You can magic box Thors with VRs just like you do with Mutalisks. Except VRs do it better because they're armoured and get bonuses against both armoured and massive units.
EDIT: Just tested in unit tester. 12 +2 armour Thors versus 12 +1 attack VRs w/Magic Box and no other micro... VRs win with 5 left over.
On April 26 2011 14:22 azarat wrote: You can magic box Thors with VRs just like you do with Mutalisks. Except VRs do it better because they're armoured and get bonuses against both armoured and massive units.
EDIT: Just tested in unit tester. 12 +2 armour Thors versus 12 +1 attack VRs w/Magic Box and no other micro... VRs win with 5 left over.
Yeah you can however as soon as you target anything they clump so now try it with 12 Vikings protecting them as anyone who build this has.... He won't lose hardy anything and your VR will go after thors who are doing least damage as opposed to vikings. If you choose to go after vikings first they clump and it's over.
Carriers kill vikings first then kill thors. Try 12 carriers too and target rearward thor..and you just decimate him and his vikings.
Basically set up a realistic scenario. Something like:
12 VR 12 Blink stalkers 12 zealots etc
vs
8 thor 12 vikings 10 SCVs on auto repair some blue flames
You'll die so quick as opposed to using carriers with +3 I also use phoenix since it benefits from +3 upgrade too and takes out vikings now.
On April 26 2011 12:18 tdt wrote: How you beat it - Mass Carriers own em up even if targeted, even with a retinue of 10-12 vikings because carriers are massive so no splash from javelin missile and armored so Thors get no bonus..Problem is transition when your first counter, the 4 gate when/if it fails.
I have played and tested this for two weeks now and mass thor, with good support, armor upgrades and 250mm cannon just own everything else protoss has.
-Zealots just get wrecked by thors and hellions and takes 50 hits to kill an upgraded thor. -Stalkers similar. -No sentry FF obviously works so they get wrecked. -Immortals one shot dead to 250mm cannon. -Colossi one shot dead to 250mm cannon.. -Void ray clump and javelin splash just wrecks them. One game I had 30!! and his 10 thors killed them all and only lost 3.
Only carriers with +3 attack. takes about 6 to wreck 8 thor. Also keeping 10-12 Phoenix, and since they are +3 too, they can actually start winning against Vikings. (he won't have any upgrades since he can't afford it)
Thorzain posted in last thread about this build after he beat Tyler with it as well. Much more math in strategy in there by ThorZain..
You're awesome man!
What? lol. Please show me how you possibly managed to lose with 30 void rays vs 10 Thors. Even if you decided NOT to magic box, I can't imagine you losing, as long as you put in minimal micro. Speedlots are also very decent vs Thors. Immortals die to 250mm cannons but the preattack delay is so long that when in massive engagements, Immortals always wreck Thors. Same with Colossus. It's only good in small engagements.
i dont know why he did 1 tank isnt it better to just rush to thor (they pop out almost the same time) while making cc then go out and FE (u cant be contained with ff and thor with few scvs is almost unkilable by gatway units)
On April 27 2011 04:03 LastMan wrote: i dont know why he did 1 tank isnt it better to just rush to thor (they pop out almost the same time) while making cc then go out and FE (u cant be contained with ff and thor with few scvs is almost unkilable by gatway units)
He probably wanted the fast raven for DTs/observers. Also tank is safer against early pressure.
On April 27 2011 04:03 LastMan wrote: i dont know why he did 1 tank isnt it better to just rush to thor (they pop out almost the same time) while making cc then go out and FE (u cant be contained with ff and thor with few scvs is almost unkilable by gatway units)
So he does not die to early pressure. Tanks come out earlier than Thor.
I've been doing this build tonight but instead of building 1 bunker, I build 2 instead at the top of my ramp since 4 gate or 3 gate pressure cane easily break my ramp with only 1 bunker, a tank and 1 hellion around. I think key is using the hellion after the tank for scouting.
I'm curious as to what others have adopted to this build to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure.
On April 27 2011 04:03 LastMan wrote: i dont know why he did 1 tank isnt it better to just rush to thor (they pop out almost the same time) while making cc then go out and FE (u cant be contained with ff and thor with few scvs is almost unkilable by gatway units)
well Thorzain did this build on xelnaga vs Adelscott but it was unrefined and failed hard... he didnt go for tank or raven in that game and just died to a radnom attack.. tank is for defensive purposes
Voidrays look good on paper. But Viking/Thor completely shuts you down in positioning. If it were as easy as not clumping them I'd use them too, but good luck trying to get them in position, your Stalkers are always trying to swat away the Viking and the Thors cover the Viking pretty darn well.
It just doesn't work out, you take too much damage entering the fight and clump up, whilst in theory should be avoidable, never pans out the way you think it does in battle.
On April 27 2011 17:15 Terranium wrote: So in what way is this thor build better than the tank build? I mean Tank/Hellion/Viking seems to be far more superior in every way.
Critical mass tanks are much better at handling immortals and colossi than thors 350mm cannon.
For whatever reason, mass Thor just really cuts through gateway units despite not having splash. I think it has something to do with the range 7 Thors forming a 2/3 deep wall. Thors for the space they take up do the most DPS per gas per unit so their formation is DPS dense. Their formation is also HP dense. Protoss units have to push into and stay inside this range 7 death zone assuming you can fit all your DPS into this kill zone. Because Thors need to be focussed, the Protoss units have to be in this kill zone for quite a while losing DPS while the Thors lose DPS slower because its hard to focus just one Thor at a time. They also don't have the same weakness to zealots as tanks do.
That's my experience anyway.
As for void rays, you can use void rays but you don't want too many void rays. They are there more to distract the Thors' target AI, force vikings, and do support DPS. If you overbuild void rays, you have to either have so many void rays that its not a contest or a Terran with decent AA will just win the ground battle and kill your VRs with reinforcements.
Trying to copy exactly what thorzain did is not the good way to do it. just see the composition and search yourself the way to get there. also the build is made for some specific map if it wasn't he would have used on every map against MC and tyler.
<3 ThorZain for having bring this build to the light
in todays sotg gretorp said mech is never going to be viable vs toss and everybody agreed, maybe except in rare occasions as a timing attack (like this build) but as a solid late game builds its just too immobile (ofcourse if map is small it still could work but thats not the trend we have nowadays)
On April 28 2011 00:09 LastMan wrote: in todays sotg gretorp said mech is never going to be viable vs toss and everybody agreed, maybe except in rare occasions as a timing attack (like this build) but as a solid late game builds its just too immobile (ofcourse if map is small it still could work but thats not the trend we have nowadays)
AAAANNND right after that Incontrol mentioned the thorzain build as very effective and it's a good tool to use sometime.
On April 28 2011 00:09 LastMan wrote: in todays sotg gretorp said mech is never going to be viable vs toss and everybody agreed, maybe except in rare occasions as a timing attack (like this build) but as a solid late game builds its just too immobile (ofcourse if map is small it still could work but thats not the trend we have nowadays)
Watch them be completely wrong...
I hope that this build gets really popular and then some protoss hass comes out with a carrier build that is amazing... I really hope.
On April 28 2011 00:09 LastMan wrote: in todays sotg gretorp said mech is never going to be viable vs toss and everybody agreed, maybe except in rare occasions as a timing attack (like this build) but as a solid late game builds its just too immobile (ofcourse if map is small it still could work but thats not the trend we have nowadays)
Watch them be completely wrong...
I hope that this build gets really popular and then some protoss hass comes out with a carrier build that is amazing... I really hope.
The thing is, all the things that made Carriers worthwhile in BW PvT aren't there in SC2 PvT.
Problem 1 - Marines are REALLY good. Even if used for nothing other than a mineral dump, you probably want at least 1 barracks pumping out Marines constantly. They offer the best DPS/cost in the game, and when teamed up with Thor/Tanks, they force Protoss to get splash units, which are going to be mostly useless against the Mech side of your army. They also have the effect of nullifying interceptors because they can shoot up.
Problem 2 - Thors are pretty much anti-interceptor. They have no need for weapon upgrades, come with 1 armor, and have tons of health. While a Thor can't do anything to the Carrier itself, they swat down Interceptors by the dozens.
Problem 3 - Vikings will strike the finishing blow. Due to including Marines in your army earlier, you have forced Colossi onto the field, which will mean you want a couple Vikings to clean those up as well. Not as many as you would if you were going bio, but they're still useful with their massive range. Going Carrier instead doesn't help you. Sure the Carriers will do better vs the Vikings than Colossi would, but in order to hit vikings you need interceptors, if those are being shot down instantly by Marines and Thors, your Carriers are neutered and waiting to die. If you wait for a large engagement instead, your Carriers will be sitting ducks for the vikings to pick off while their interceptors target everything randomly.
Problem 4 - EMP is REALLY good. Any Terran will eventually want Ghosts. If he's going Mech, the Ghosts will be secondary, but still desired in a "perfect composition". If you thought EMP was good vs a standard ground army, wait until the AoE hits 30 interceptors on top of whatever ground comp you've got.
Not saying mech is imba or anything, there are ways to deal with it I'm sure, but Carriers are not that.
On April 28 2011 00:09 LastMan wrote: in todays sotg gretorp said mech is never going to be viable vs toss and everybody agreed, maybe except in rare occasions as a timing attack (like this build) but as a solid late game builds its just too immobile (ofcourse if map is small it still could work but thats not the trend we have nowadays)
Watch them be completely wrong...
I hope that this build gets really popular and then some protoss hass comes out with a carrier build that is amazing... I really hope.
The thing is, all the things that made Carriers worthwhile in BW PvT aren't there in SC2 PvT.
Problem 1 - Marines are REALLY good. Even if used for nothing other than a mineral dump, you probably want at least 1 barracks pumping out Marines constantly. They offer the best DPS/cost in the game, and when teamed up with Thor/Tanks, they force Protoss to get splash units, which are going to be mostly useless against the Mech side of your army. They also have the effect of nullifying interceptors because they can shoot up.
Problem 2 - Thors are pretty much anti-interceptor. They have no need for weapon upgrades, come with 1 armor, and have tons of health. While a Thor can't do anything to the Carrier itself, they swat down Interceptors by the dozens.
Problem 3 - Vikings will strike the finishing blow. Due to including Marines in your army earlier, you have forced Colossi onto the field, which will mean you want a couple Vikings to clean those up as well. Not as many as you would if you were going bio, but they're still useful with their massive range. Going Carrier instead doesn't help you. Sure the Carriers will do better vs the Vikings than Colossi would, but in order to hit vikings you need interceptors, if those are being shot down instantly by Marines and Thors, your Carriers are neutered and waiting to die. If you wait for a large engagement instead, your Carriers will be sitting ducks for the vikings to pick off while their interceptors target everything randomly.
Problem 4 - EMP is REALLY good. Any Terran will eventually want Ghosts. If he's going Mech, the Ghosts will be secondary, but still desired in a "perfect composition". If you thought EMP was good vs a standard ground army, wait until the AoE hits 30 interceptors on top of whatever ground comp you've got.
Not saying mech is imba or anything, there are ways to deal with it I'm sure, but Carriers are not that.
Carriers do fantastic against mech once you hit critical mass, even considering that they kill interceptors. You always couple carriers with high templar against terran to storm the marines, stopping them from killing the interceptors. Thors actually don't do that well against interceptors because of how lousy their AI is, they often just spin in circles without shooting.
The problem is getting carriers, their build time is simply too long to really transition into them, especially given their front loaded cost, and you really need at least 4 of them together.
On April 28 2011 00:09 LastMan wrote: in todays sotg gretorp said mech is never going to be viable vs toss and everybody agreed, maybe except in rare occasions as a timing attack (like this build) but as a solid late game builds its just too immobile (ofcourse if map is small it still could work but thats not the trend we have nowadays)
Watch them be completely wrong...
I hope that this build gets really popular and then some protoss hass comes out with a carrier build that is amazing... I really hope.
i sure hope so, because atm i play mainly bio and rage everytime i have to play against decent toss in 20++ minute long macro game and watch my army evaporate in few seconds vs colossus/storm
On April 28 2011 00:09 LastMan wrote: in todays sotg gretorp said mech is never going to be viable vs toss and everybody agreed, maybe except in rare occasions as a timing attack (like this build) but as a solid late game builds its just too immobile (ofcourse if map is small it still could work but thats not the trend we have nowadays)
Watch them be completely wrong...
I hope that this build gets really popular and then some protoss hass comes out with a carrier build that is amazing... I really hope.
The thing is, all the things that made Carriers worthwhile in BW PvT aren't there in SC2 PvT.
Problem 1 - Marines are REALLY good. Even if used for nothing other than a mineral dump, you probably want at least 1 barracks pumping out Marines constantly. They offer the best DPS/cost in the game, and when teamed up with Thor/Tanks, they force Protoss to get splash units, which are going to be mostly useless against the Mech side of your army. They also have the effect of nullifying interceptors because they can shoot up.
Problem 2 - Thors are pretty much anti-interceptor. They have no need for weapon upgrades, come with 1 armor, and have tons of health. While a Thor can't do anything to the Carrier itself, they swat down Interceptors by the dozens.
Problem 3 - Vikings will strike the finishing blow. Due to including Marines in your army earlier, you have forced Colossi onto the field, which will mean you want a couple Vikings to clean those up as well. Not as many as you would if you were going bio, but they're still useful with their massive range. Going Carrier instead doesn't help you. Sure the Carriers will do better vs the Vikings than Colossi would, but in order to hit vikings you need interceptors, if those are being shot down instantly by Marines and Thors, your Carriers are neutered and waiting to die. If you wait for a large engagement instead, your Carriers will be sitting ducks for the vikings to pick off while their interceptors target everything randomly.
Problem 4 - EMP is REALLY good. Any Terran will eventually want Ghosts. If he's going Mech, the Ghosts will be secondary, but still desired in a "perfect composition". If you thought EMP was good vs a standard ground army, wait until the AoE hits 30 interceptors on top of whatever ground comp you've got.
Not saying mech is imba or anything, there are ways to deal with it I'm sure, but Carriers are not that.
Thors target carriers.
You guys needs to try this in unit tester map I linked earlier. 10 +3 Carriers just wreck 10 thors with 10-12 vikings support. You'll maybe lose 2. Add 10 +3 phoenix you won't lose any carriers.
Try the same with 20-30 VR you'll lose badly.
Carriers are the only counter to ThorZains build besides mass immortal like 20. because thor do so much ground damage and little air damage to armored by comparison. Zealots just get schooled even without hellions support. Try 40 charglots too.
On April 28 2011 00:09 LastMan wrote: in todays sotg gretorp said mech is never going to be viable vs toss and everybody agreed, maybe except in rare occasions as a timing attack (like this build) but as a solid late game builds its just too immobile (ofcourse if map is small it still could work but thats not the trend we have nowadays)
Watch them be completely wrong...
I hope that this build gets really popular and then some protoss hass comes out with a carrier build that is amazing... I really hope.
i sure hope so, because atm i play mainly bio and rage everytime i have to play against decent toss in 20++ minute long macro game and watch my army evaporate in few seconds vs colossus/storm
On April 28 2011 01:53 k!llua wrote: Has anyone got the builds Thorzain used the first few games? I'm at work and haven't gotten the chance to watch the VODs yet.
1 Barrack FE Strategy by Thorzain TSL3 is on my blog @ www.TerranSC.blogspot.com its the third post with build order
thanks for posting been trying it out a little today with some good success in ladder. just got a few questions, for some reason the vods haven't been working all day so can't rewatch, how is he keeping his minerals as low as he does? if i remember right the 3rd wasn't that fast and he was producing off 3 factories for a while. i know in his post he said he didnt't build any marauders so did he throw down a lot of additional racks just for unpgraded or stim marines? currently i'm finding it hard to find the balance of enough factories to keep minerals down (not doing it) but still have enough gas for constant thor production and upgrades (achieving this but with only a little gas to spare off 4 gysers). should it be possible? or is throwing down additional racks the answer?
early heavy gas and expanding when your mineral out of control with constant scv production included with the upgrades and starport+factory facilities, you should have no problem and of course keeping your supply depots up
You want about 6-8 vikings,1 raven You want about 4-6 helions You want about 6-8 Thors and only attack when you have +2 amor
This sort of stuff you should NEVER list in this fashion. Its about suiting your army composistion after what your opponent is doing. Helions to beat Zealots, vikings to beat colossi. If terran dosnt get Zealots, you NEVER want to go helions for anything else than harass purposes. Same thing obviously with vikings to colossi/air.
You want about 6-8 vikings,1 raven You want about 4-6 helions You want about 6-8 Thors and only attack when you have +2 amor
This sort of stuff you should NEVER list in this fashion. Its about suiting your army composistion after what your opponent is doing. Helions to beat Zealots, vikings to beat colossi. If terran dosnt get Zealots, you NEVER want to go helions for anything else than harass purposes. Same thing obviously with vikings to colossi/air.
lol....
what is the protoss going to have? a stalker/immortal/templar army?
its a safe bet, zealots are gonan be in 99% of all protoss compositions as well as vikings against voidrays, carriers, and collosi
I think ThorZaIn's build is extremely well-thought-out against Protoss. I have used it in like 10 matches for the ladder (Diamond) and I won 9 lost 1 to proxy pylon. I think this build is really vulnerable early one to a 3-4 gate with a lot of sentries. The sentries can easily forcefield and prevent scvs from repairing the bunkers so you need to scout well and bring scvs both the front and the back of the bunker the moment you senses pressure.
I have play matches against P who goes mass immortals and stalkers. In that case you need to position your army well. I often made Vikings blindly as well to lessen the thread of VRs and carriers and they can shoot well when they land. Also I always try to do +1 attack for Air when I am done with +2 for my Thor.
On April 28 2011 15:28 secondparttohell wrote: I think ThorZaIn's build is extremely well-thought-out against Protoss. I have used it in like 10 matches for the ladder (Diamond) and I won 9 lost 1 to proxy pylon. I think this build is really vulnerable early one to a 3-4 gate with a lot of sentries. The sentries can easily forcefield and prevent scvs from repairing the bunkers so you need to scout well and bring scvs both the front and the back of the bunker the moment you senses pressure.
I have play matches against P who goes mass immortals and stalkers. In that case you need to position your army well. I often made Vikings blindly as well to lessen the thread of VRs and carriers and they can shoot well when they land. Also I always try to do +1 attack for Air when I am done with +2 for my Thor.
Just my 2 cents.
vs sentries you say? doesn't the tank help out immensely? only thing i have lost to so far is 3 gate void, not sure how you can survive that with this build to be honest.
On April 28 2011 15:28 secondparttohell wrote: I think ThorZaIn's build is extremely well-thought-out against Protoss. I have used it in like 10 matches for the ladder (Diamond) and I won 9 lost 1 to proxy pylon. I think this build is really vulnerable early one to a 3-4 gate with a lot of sentries. The sentries can easily forcefield and prevent scvs from repairing the bunkers so you need to scout well and bring scvs both the front and the back of the bunker the moment you senses pressure.
I have play matches against P who goes mass immortals and stalkers. In that case you need to position your army well. I often made Vikings blindly as well to lessen the thread of VRs and carriers and they can shoot well when they land. Also I always try to do +1 attack for Air when I am done with +2 for my Thor.
Just my 2 cents.
vs sentries you say? doesn't the tank help out immensely? only thing i have lost to so far is 3 gate void, not sure how you can survive that with this build to be honest.
I think it all comes down to scouting, but if I see early gas that often wall off with 1 bunkers + 2 depots and send 2 scvs for standing by and get a Viking out 1st instead of raven and then get the raven afterward. If they come out with DT instead, 2 Scvs can hold the line jst fine with 1 DT, if 2-3 you would need to pull 3-4 more. Still, it's a pretty tricky micro battle and honestly I think 3 Gate Voidray is the most difficult thing to deal with in most TvP match except if I decide to go 6-7 rax all in :D
Thanks for making this, will save me a lot of time looking at the VOD ^_^
Of course it should be noted that the build order shouldn't be followed strictly, since it is so long and players must react and change things around often.
Never thought about the 2 armor thors... but yeah that really helps against those 2*8 Zealots, which give Thors trouble, and since it would allow the Thors to tank for the DPS Banshees if you get them!
Thanks for commenting on this Thorzain! I was about to wonder how much of this was actually part of the "build order", which was a general order, and what was completely dependent on each game.
He looks so much different from his TSL portrait. And from google images it seems he looks drastically different from picture to picture o.o. This picture above however, is SEXY. Perfect lighting/angle/background/clothing/face. Look so baller here!
Reason Thor do bad vs Carriers is because they target interceptors which is actually very bad. You would have to micro the Thor to target Phoenix or ground and that can be very straining fighting against the AI of the Thor because you will also want to focus fire with the Vikings on the Carriers as well as do other things with your army. The Toss army just has to a-move because their AI is not stupid.
Thankfully Interceptors do not drain PDD energy. Although Carriers become exponentially better in chokes as they are able to focus their poor dps more easily.
However if you can overcome the weakness of the AI Thor + Viking do rather well against Phoenix + Carrier.
As for people who make unit tester games please at least come up with realistic army engagements.
You can sometimes blind counter an enemy player because you saw part of his army. If he spends on lots of gas heavy units and upgrades it is a good idea to get Hellions because he has to mineral dump his resources into Zealots. You do not have to see his army to do this. He will have Zealots.
So Thor will now have energy and strike cannon will now cost 150 energy. This will make ThorZaIN Mech build much more vulnerable to HT. I think now I will have to incorporate more ghosts in ThorZaIN mech build to deal with the HT, luckily the ghost price has changed to 200-100 now which is a good thing.
So what do you guys think about this? ThorZaIN are you around here? Any thoughts on how you will modify your build.
I am quite sad to be honest, I have been winning more and more TvP with iEchoic build and ThorZaIN build come as an interesting alternative and now it got nerfed
So Thor will now have energy and strike cannon will now cost 150 energy. This will make ThorZaIN Mech build much more vulnerable to HT. I think now I will have to incorporate more ghosts in ThorZaIN mech build to deal with the HT, luckily the ghost price has changed to 200-100 now which is a good thing.
So what do you guys think about this? ThorZaIN are you around here? Any thoughts on how you will modify your build.
I am quite sad to be honest, I have been winning more and more TvP with iEchoic build and ThorZaIN build come as an interesting alternative and now it got nerfed
Blizzard has some weird thing that any mech build that becomes viable they nerf into the ground. I don't know if it's browder or some non-sensical fear of the game being like "brood war" but finally anytime a solid mech build that comes up becomes possible it's gone soon after because yah...as said...dustin browder is a marauder lol.
On May 05 2011 00:19 Antisocialmunky wrote: I play Terran and like to use Thors.
Thors are strong by themselves in TvP, its not because of Thorzain's build.
Same here, however I think Protoss upgrade gateway army + immortal can do perfectly ok with Thor army or can at least make the engagement an army trade which ultimately is good for P because they can remax much faster than T.
It depends on engagement location to be honest, if the immortals get into position and don't get EMPed/cannoned and if the Thors are poorly supported poorly, the Protoss can come off ahead. The problem with Immortals is the 2 less range and their slow/wonky pathfinding.
On May 05 2011 00:30 Antisocialmunky wrote: It depends on engagement location to be honest, if the immortals get into position and don't get EMPed/cannoned and if the Thors are poorly supported poorly, the Protoss can come off ahead. The problem with Immortals is the 2 less range and their slow/wonky pathfinding.
That's exactly what I thought. On big map the THor army mix vulnerable to flanking due to the relatively immobile characteristics. Of course hellion are fast but the Thors are not. Flanking with chargelots on one side and blink stalkers on the other side on top of Thor army and then bring the immortal in. I have lost couple of times due to that.
Yeah, its like BW mech where you can kill it head-on only if things go perfectly for Protoss or if the Thors are incorrectly support/poorly positioned. That isn't to say that it isn't hard for Terran since you can get into those situations quite easily.
Another thing to note is that late game Terran has the biggest food army due to mules and foodless stuff they can build that influences the battle.
How do you guys think transitioning into this build from say a VT Trump opening would work? This means early marines and Thors followed by an expansion. There is also room for upgrading teh strike cannon or armor before you even expand. This build easily takes care of any early pressure. Its only weakness is one base voidray agression early on. I think if this build starts with this type of opening it could probably transition into Thorzain's unit composition pretty easily. What do you guys think?
On May 05 2011 02:54 Tvk wrote: Tried out this build.
Well.
I got about 10 looses in row with this build :D everytime lost to voidray push / 4gate and so on ://
Then swithed back to marauder+viking and instant 10 wins in row vs protoss )
You mean mech build vs P ? Voidray push can be tricky to deal with but 4 gate is not that bad u will have one bunker 1 hellion and your CC building at the time it's hit. You can rally 10-12 scvs to surround the bunker for repairing and repel the push. Afterward you can quickly catch up economically due to 2 OC and also have a tech advantage.
I was wondering whether a Thor-based composition would leave many Terran susceptible to counter-attacks on larger maps and if so do Terran lose out on the base trade.
I remember watching ThorZain use this build effectively on Xelnaga Caverns and on Crossfire in his TL3 matches vs Liquid Tyler and OGSMC however I cannot recall him using this build on larger maps. If I recall correctly ThorZain did not use this build on Tal'Darim against OGSMC and went for a more "standard" bio build.
In general how does one compensate for the immobility of mech (especially Thors) on larger maps?
On May 05 2011 02:54 Tvk wrote: Tried out this build.
Well.
I got about 10 looses in row with this build :D everytime lost to voidray push / 4gate and so on ://
Then swithed back to marauder+viking and instant 10 wins in row vs protoss )
You mean mech build vs P ? Voidray push can be tricky to deal with but 4 gate is not that bad u will have one bunker 1 hellion and your CC building at the time it's hit. You can rally 10-12 scvs to surround the bunker for repairing and repel the push. Afterward you can quickly catch up economically due to 2 OC and also have a tech advantage.
I scouted 4gate, i placed 2 bunkers, i had 7marines 1 hellion and a tank, he FF my bunkers so i couldnt repair them and killed me
This build is very vulnerable to any kind of rush.
While MMM is against everything, just add right units later - vikings, ghost.
On May 05 2011 05:29 TG_CryMeAReaver wrote: I was wondering whether a Thor-based composition would leave many Terran susceptible to counter-attacks on larger maps and if so do Terran lose out on the base trade.
I remember watching ThorZain use this build effectively on Xelnaga Caverns and on Crossfire in his TL3 matches vs Liquid Tyler and OGSMC however I cannot recall him using this build on larger maps. If I recall correctly ThorZain did not use this build on Tal'Darim against OGSMC and went for a more "standard" bio build.
In general how does one compensate for the immobility of mech (especially Thors) on larger maps?
Well except if you have air units/secret bases/some sort of advantage I would not suggest base trade against T. I could fly up almost my entire base to a corner when my main army demolish your base
I dont get why templars are going to have to counter almost every unit the terran has.
They already counter MMM. They counter banshees, raven and battlecruiser play. Now they will counter Thors too?
"Well just use ghosts to counter templars!"
I just don't like only having one way in dealing with a certain unit, and that way being pretty "risky" (Even though ghosts "counters" templars, templars "counters" ghosts too).
If blizzard saw a problem in Thor play i just wish they would have tried to balance it in another way (don't ask me how).
I'm not whining because I don't think this will make protoss imba vs terran in any way, I just think that it will make things more one-dimensional.
On May 05 2011 06:45 Thorzain wrote: I dont get why templars are going to have to counter almost every unit the terran has.
They already counter MMM. They counter banshees, raven and battlecruiser play. Now they will counter Thors too?
"Well just use ghosts to counter templars!"
I just don't like only having one way in dealing with a certain unit, and that way being pretty "risky" (Even though ghosts "counters" templars, templars "counters" ghosts too).
If blizzard saw a problem in Thor play i just wish they would have tried to balance it in another way (don't ask me how).
I'm not whining because I don't think this will make protoss imba vs terran in any way, I just think that it will make things more one-dimensional.
Agreed.
It would be a different story if mass thor was the main strategy and MMMVG was rare... But to destroy this strategy in its infancy before it has a chance to permeate (and potentially revolutionize) the metagame is just stupid.
Because Thorzain, the supposed counter unit, the immortal, just gets evaporated by strike cannon. Try and play protoss and beat your mass thor build, you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up. By definition if something has no counter it's imba so mass thor was for all intents and purposes imba. I think blizz knew this going in which is why they had energy bar in the first place but it upset users who never researched strike cannon and just had a couple thors around that thier expensive thor would get zapped just wondering around the map. So they took energy bar out. But once you showed the abusive tactic of mass thor they reverted to having a counter.
I don't really agree about one dimensional. That's why blizz only gave them 200pts of energy and it will only sorta of hurt them. One not only needs to land feedbacks which is countered by ghost a protoss still needs a formidable force to deal with thors since as you have noted before their armor upgrade put them over the top and they do massive ground DPS. At least we will get to see immortal stand a chance now.
Please don't feel bad about HT's being able to damage half your units because terran has Ghost which damages ALL protoss units not just half.
On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote: you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up.
See, that's why you fail right there. You've convinced yourself that carriers are unobtainable, when I'm sure several terrans - myself included - have lost mass thor games when the protoss switched to carriers.
Here's one of the best posts I've read on TL.net recently - by Ezekyle - regarding thors:
[...]Nevertheless, the ways to deal with to thor/marine do exist, even if it is carrier/HT/collosus. The issue then becomes not 'thor/marine is unbeatable' but 'how do I get carrier/HT/collosus out in time'. In the past no Zergs worried about void ray/collosus/sentry because it's so absurdly gas-heavy that no one could ever make that in a real game, but then people figured out how to do it and suddenly it's not only practical but the dominant strategy in a matchup. You can't just dismiss every way of handling thor play because you played one game against a strategy you've never seen before and lost
On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote: Because Thorzain, the supposed counter unit, the immortal, just gets evaporated by strike cannon. Try and play protoss and beat your mass thor build, you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up. By definition if something has no counter it's imba so mass thor was for all intents and purposes imba. I think blizz knew this going in which is why they had energy bar in the first place but it upset users who never researched strike cannon and just had a couple thors around that thier expensive thor would get zapped just wondering around the map. So they took energy bar out. But once you showed the abusive tactic of mass thor they reverted to having a counter.
I don't really agree about one dimensional. That's why blizz only gave them 200pts of energy and it will only sorta of hurt them. One not only needs to land feedbacks which is countered by ghost a protoss still needs a formidable force to deal with thors since as you have noted before their armor upgrade put them over the top and they do massive ground DPS. At least we will get to see immortal stand a chance now.
Please don't feel bad about HT's being able to damage half your units because terran has Ghost which damages ALL protoss units not just half.
It's difficult for P to get the carrier with upgrades to deal with Thor but let me remind you that it's equally difficult for T to get a critical mass of Thors without getting killed by 4 gate or 3 gate VR from P players. It's a fair game and both sides have trade-offs.
You can beat thors with just land units if you do it properly, dont get me wrong the build is really good on the right maps. But honestly this build only works on maps were there are really small chokes and the 3th base is within push radios of your own 3th base and main. Aka that you can push without having your entire main exposed when you try to attack. Try it on tal darim/shatter temple/terminus/esl neo enigma/crevasse for example and glhf with its not going to work. Also if protoss knows your are going to do this build he can just double expand and go to 3 robo for collo/stalker/immo and 2 forges for fast upgrades, then amove when hes maxed out and go afk. Its a nice build to have in your arsenal but not overpowerd/broken not even close.
On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote: Because Thorzain, the supposed counter unit, the immortal, just gets evaporated by strike cannon. Try and play protoss and beat your mass thor build, you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up. By definition if something has no counter it's imba so mass thor was for all intents and purposes imba. I think blizz knew this going in which is why they had energy bar in the first place but it upset users who never researched strike cannon and just had a couple thors around that thier expensive thor would get zapped just wondering around the map. So they took energy bar out. But once you showed the abusive tactic of mass thor they reverted to having a counter.
So every Terran using this build has a 100% winrate in TvP hm?... Every protoss in the world has searched for months for an answer and there is none. The build is impossible to beat.
Right...
Use some logic here: if this build is unbeatable why do most Terrans still use MMMGV?
What I don't understand is why people assume these patch changes are definitely needed just because they are in blue writing and posted by Blizzard. Zealot build time has been changed back and forth like 4 times so far, plus bunker changed about 100 times. just blindly assuming blizz is making the right change is stupid
personally i think it sucks that this build is no longer viable if these patch changes make it to live servers.... also what are you even talking about tdt? no one said it was unbeatable, and you dont need +3 air weapons either for carriers to be good vs thors feel free to use your brain instead of being a mindless sheep
On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote:I don't really agree about one dimensional. That's why blizz only gave them 200pts of energy and it will only sorta of hurt them.
LOL... Only "sort of hurt them."
Remind me because I forgot... how often was strike cannon used in TvP before energy was removed in 1.3.2?
On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote: you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up.
See, that's why you fail right there. You've convinced yourself that carriers are unobtainable, when I'm sure several terrans - myself included - have lost mass thor games when the protoss switched to carriers.
Here's one of the best posts I've read on TL.net recently - by Ezekyle - regarding thors:
[...]Nevertheless, the ways to deal with to thor/marine do exist, even if it is carrier/HT/collosus. The issue then becomes not 'thor/marine is unbeatable' but 'how do I get carrier/HT/collosus out in time'. In the past no Zergs worried about void ray/collosus/sentry because it's so absurdly gas-heavy that no one could ever make that in a real game, but then people figured out how to do it and suddenly it's not only practical but the dominant strategy in a matchup. You can't just dismiss every way of handling thor play because you played one game against a strategy you've never seen before and lost
I did not say they were unobtainable I said they leave you too exposed and take too long effectivly killing strat unless Terran turtles and you recognize mass Thor attempt in time.
On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote: Because Thorzain, the supposed counter unit, the immortal, just gets evaporated by strike cannon. Try and play protoss and beat your mass thor build, you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up. By definition if something has no counter it's imba so mass thor was for all intents and purposes imba. I think blizz knew this going in which is why they had energy bar in the first place but it upset users who never researched strike cannon and just had a couple thors around that thier expensive thor would get zapped just wondering around the map. So they took energy bar out. But once you showed the abusive tactic of mass thor they reverted to having a counter.
I don't really agree about one dimensional. That's why blizz only gave them 200pts of energy and it will only sorta of hurt them. One not only needs to land feedbacks which is countered by ghost a protoss still needs a formidable force to deal with thors since as you have noted before their armor upgrade put them over the top and they do massive ground DPS. At least we will get to see immortal stand a chance now.
Please don't feel bad about HT's being able to damage half your units because terran has Ghost which damages ALL protoss units not just half.
It's difficult for P to get the carrier with upgrades to deal with Thor but let me remind you that it's equally difficult for T to get a critical mass of Thors without getting killed by 4 gate or 3 gate VR from P players. It's a fair game and both sides have trade-offs.
True. In another thread regarding this build I mentioned as protoss you gotta kill it early while only 2-3 are on the field and Terran is weaker otherwise it's GG.
On May 06 2011 07:12 4Servy wrote: You can beat thors with just land units if you do it properly, dont get me wrong the build is really good on the right maps. But honestly this build only works on maps were there are really small chokes and the 3th base is within push radios of your own 3th base and main. Aka that you can push without having your entire main exposed when you try to attack. Try it on tal darim/shatter temple/terminus/esl neo enigma/crevasse for example and glhf with its not going to work. Also if protoss knows your are going to do this build he can just double expand and go to 3 robo for collo/stalker/immo and 2 forges for fast upgrades, then amove when hes maxed out and go afk. Its a nice build to have in your arsenal but not overpowerd/broken not even close.
I'd like to see you try in a custom against +2 or +3 armored up 8-10 thors with strike cannon upgrade and a retinue of 10 vikings, 10 SCVs, 10 Marauders, 10 BFH, and a Raven I have about 20 games and everything fails but 8-10 carriers with a few Phoenix to take out vikings.
Zealots need like 50 hits to kill a thor meanwhile Thors are two shotting Zealots and BFH roasting Zealots. Stalkers similar pathetic story. They just evaporate. VR clump because they are not massive like carriers and go down quick to vikings and Thor's splash in addition to Thor's huge attack bonus vs unarmored which splashes too. Collosi get one shotted by strike cannon Immortals get one shotted by strike cannon HT useless DT useless because there is one Raven on build plus ever present scan
etc
Only thing I found to counter was carriers which are immune to splash, are armored so no Thor attack bonus, and because you're doing +3 anyway for interceptors Phoenix start beating protection viking too.
On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote: Because Thorzain, the supposed counter unit, the immortal, just gets evaporated by strike cannon. Try and play protoss and beat your mass thor build, you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up. By definition if something has no counter it's imba so mass thor was for all intents and purposes imba. I think blizz knew this going in which is why they had energy bar in the first place but it upset users who never researched strike cannon and just had a couple thors around that thier expensive thor would get zapped just wondering around the map. So they took energy bar out. But once you showed the abusive tactic of mass thor they reverted to having a counter.
So every Terran using this build has a 100% winrate in TvP hm?... Every protoss in the world has searched for months for an answer and there is none. The build is impossible to beat.
Right...
Use some logic here: if this build is unbeatable why do most Terrans still use MMMGV?
Because it's new, ThorZain was pioneer, it's hard to tech to and you need an open map but I've never seen it lose when allowed to go unchecked. Blizz knows what they are doing by allowing a counter other than carriers. Blizz knew it before game even came out hence energy bar before. No it's not impossible to beat but nearly.
Thorzain himself only used it once for each Bo5. He played bio for the rest of his games, probably due to the map geography (large, wide open maps are awful for thors). Protoss can basically backstab you once you move out and win the base race with ease. You also don't have to sit and wait for the Terran to attack. If he's massing thors there are multiple timings where he's weak to different pushes. Or you can take a fast third and overwhelm him. There are lots of possible answers and it's much better for Blizzard to sit back and let the game evolve rather than pushing the same MMM vs gateway+colossus that we've had since beta. I for one would be glad to see warp prisms or carriers see some use as a response to this.
On May 05 2011 06:45 Thorzain wrote: I dont get why templars are going to have to counter almost every unit the terran has.
They already counter MMM. They counter banshees, raven and battlecruiser play. Now they will counter Thors too?
"Well just use ghosts to counter templars!"
I just don't like only having one way in dealing with a certain unit, and that way being pretty "risky" (Even though ghosts "counters" templars, templars "counters" ghosts too).
If blizzard saw a problem in Thor play i just wish they would have tried to balance it in another way (don't ask me how).
I'm not whining because I don't think this will make protoss imba vs terran in any way, I just think that it will make things more one-dimensional.
Protoss could say the exact same thing about Ghosts, there is never a situation where not having a ghost is ever better than having a Ghost in TvP. The Templar it self doesn't counter anything, it only does well in combination with other units. It is like the Infestor, or the the Ghost.
If anything it makes things less one-dimensional, it means Toss has to use a variety of units to overcome a particular task rather than having to rely on X unit everytime Terran does Y. It means your play has to be less one dimensional, it can no longer rely on just Strike Cannoning Immortals, there is never always going to be Templars to feedback your Thors and there is never always going to be Immortals to make use of the Templar feedback.
The games will become varied, you have no idea what will happen now, if a Ghost manages to get an EMP it can completely change the situation, likewise the same happens if the Protoss player gets great feedbacks.
Resources among Protoss will now be spread out, you will now have less of certain units in place of Templars, this might mean less upgrades, less production, who knows really. The presence of Templars and their usefulness also allows Protoss to feasibly preform a Carrier transition. This small change gives more opportunity for the better player to out play the weaker.
Without this change, your build and how the Protoss responds is very systematic, wouldn't you say?
On May 06 2011 05:21 tdt wrote: Because Thorzain, the supposed counter unit, the immortal, just gets evaporated by strike cannon. Try and play protoss and beat your mass thor build, you can't without +3 mass carrier which is unobtainable without getting killed in build up. By definition if something has no counter it's imba so mass thor was for all intents and purposes imba. I think blizz knew this going in which is why they had energy bar in the first place but it upset users who never researched strike cannon and just had a couple thors around that thier expensive thor would get zapped just wondering around the map. So they took energy bar out. But once you showed the abusive tactic of mass thor they reverted to having a counter.
I don't really agree about one dimensional. That's why blizz only gave them 200pts of energy and it will only sorta of hurt them. One not only needs to land feedbacks which is countered by ghost a protoss still needs a formidable force to deal with thors since as you have noted before their armor upgrade put them over the top and they do massive ground DPS. At least we will get to see immortal stand a chance now.
Please don't feel bad about HT's being able to damage half your units because terran has Ghost which damages ALL protoss units not just half.
no real proof just useless theorycrafting, i tried mass thors even with ghosts many times and got run over by toss army anyway, tell me if this strategy was so unstoppable why nobody used it, there are no gsl terrans winning and dominating tvp with thors, its just low league players which are happy from the nerf and try to make justifications just for sake of doing it
I would just like to point out on the immo vs thor, the strike cannon only really works if you have an equal amount of thors and immo. otherwise the thors get some of them and get destroyed while they channeling the cast
To be honest I try to use this build this day and it doesn't work that well anymore. First is the problem in the build up, since the opening is one rax FE and if Protoss go 3 gate robo with 3 immortal and hit you with the front and you only have one thor and one tank + marine and bunkers with mass repair it won't help. Second thing is now with the range increase Thor aren't that effective against a zealot archon + some immortals anymore. If you want to have enough ghosts for EMP the archon you won't have strike cannon so the immortal will do serious damage. If you have strike cannon you can't really deal with the Archon effectively.
On November 02 2011 01:07 thOr6136 wrote: dude, last post was almost 6 months ago
Back when strike cannons were still cooldown and didn't require energy, which is what made the build so powerful. So powerful, in fact, that strike cannons were nerfed into oblivion less than a month after this game...
EPT
, Strike cannon is great but if you wait at the bottom of a ramp in a concave then he cant push, Thors end up getting killed when before strike cannon ends
been trying it out a little today with some good success in ladder. just got a few questions, for some reason the vods haven't been working all day so can't rewatch, how is he keeping his minerals as low as he does? if i remember right the 3rd wasn't that fast and he was producing off 3 factories for a while. i know in his post he said he didnt't build any marauders so did he throw down a lot of additional racks just for unpgraded or stim marines? currently i'm finding it hard to find the balance of enough factories to keep minerals down (not doing it) but still have enough gas for constant thor production and upgrades (achieving this but with only a little gas to spare off 4 gysers). should it be possible? or is throwing down additional racks the answer?
