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On April 26 2011 12:18 tdt wrote:
-Void ray clump and javelin splash just wrecks them. One game I had 30!! and his 10 thors killed them all and only lost 3.
Only carriers with +3 attack. takes about 6 to wreck 8 thor. Also keeping 10-12 Phoenix, and since they are +3 too, they can actually start winning against Vikings. (he won't have any upgrades since he can't afford it)
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don't clump your void rays? I've welped thors with just a little bit of lateral spread to them. they have a nasty addition with the air upgrades and the +30% to massive and on top of +6.7 to armored
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On April 26 2011 12:58 sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:18 tdt wrote:
-Void ray clump and javelin splash just wrecks them. One game I had 30!! and his 10 thors killed them all and only lost 3.
Only carriers with +3 attack. takes about 6 to wreck 8 thor. Also keeping 10-12 Phoenix, and since they are +3 too, they can actually start winning against Vikings. (he won't have any upgrades since he can't afford it)
! don't clump your void rays? I've welped thors with just a little bit of lateral spread to them. they have a nasty addition with the air upgrades and the +30% to massive and on top of +6.7 to armored
Thats probably true but I have a hard time positioning them like that and target firing.
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You can magic box Thors with VRs just like you do with Mutalisks. Except VRs do it better because they're armoured and get bonuses against both armoured and massive units.
EDIT: Just tested in unit tester. 12 +2 armour Thors versus 12 +1 attack VRs w/Magic Box and no other micro... VRs win with 5 left over.
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On April 26 2011 14:22 azarat wrote:
You can magic box Thors with VRs just like you do with Mutalisks. Except VRs do it better because they're armoured and get bonuses against both armoured and massive units.
EDIT: Just tested in unit tester. 12 +2 armour Thors versus 12 +1 attack VRs w/Magic Box and no other micro... VRs win with 5 left over.
Yeah you can however as soon as you target anything they clump so now try it with 12 Vikings protecting them as anyone who build this has.... He won't lose hardy anything and your VR will go after thors who are doing least damage as opposed to vikings. If you choose to go after vikings first they clump and it's over.
Carriers kill vikings first then kill thors. Try 12 carriers too and target rearward thor..and you just decimate him and his vikings.
Basically set up a realistic scenario. Something like:
12 VR
12 Blink stalkers
12 zealots
etc
vs
8 thor
12 vikings
10 SCVs on auto repair
some blue flames
You'll die so quick as opposed to using carriers with +3 I also use phoenix since it benefits from +3 upgrade too and takes out vikings now.
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On April 26 2011 12:18 tdt wrote:
How you beat it - Mass Carriers own em up even if targeted, even with a retinue of 10-12 vikings because carriers are massive so no splash from javelin missile and armored so Thors get no bonus..Problem is transition when your first counter, the 4 gate when/if it fails.
I have played and tested this for two weeks now and mass thor, with good support, armor upgrades and 250mm cannon just own everything else protoss has.
-Zealots just get wrecked by thors and hellions and takes 50 hits to kill an upgraded thor.
-Stalkers similar.
-No sentry FF obviously works so they get wrecked.
-Immortals one shot dead to 250mm cannon.
-Colossi one shot dead to 250mm cannon..
-Void ray clump and javelin splash just wrecks them. One game I had 30!! and his 10 thors killed them all and only lost 3.
Only carriers with +3 attack. takes about 6 to wreck 8 thor. Also keeping 10-12 Phoenix, and since they are +3 too, they can actually start winning against Vikings. (he won't have any upgrades since he can't afford it)
Thorzain posted in last thread about this build after he beat Tyler with it as well. Much more math in strategy in there by ThorZain..
You're awesome man!
What? lol. Please show me how you possibly managed to lose with 30 void rays vs 10 Thors. Even if you decided NOT to magic box, I can't imagine you losing, as long as you put in minimal micro. Speedlots are also very decent vs Thors. Immortals die to 250mm cannons but the preattack delay is so long that when in massive engagements, Immortals always wreck Thors. Same with Colossus. It's only good in small engagements.
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i dont know why he did 1 tank isnt it better to just rush to thor (they pop out almost the same time) while making cc then go out and FE (u cant be contained with ff and thor with few scvs is almost unkilable by gatway units)
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On April 27 2011 04:03 LastMan wrote:
i dont know why he did 1 tank isnt it better to just rush to thor (they pop out almost the same time) while making cc then go out and FE (u cant be contained with ff and thor with few scvs is almost unkilable by gatway units)
He probably wanted the fast raven for DTs/observers. Also tank is safer against early pressure.
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Can we get some replays from anybody trying this?
I'm basically thinking the hard part is securing your expand against pressure?
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On April 27 2011 04:03 LastMan wrote:
i dont know why he did 1 tank isnt it better to just rush to thor (they pop out almost the same time) while making cc then go out and FE (u cant be contained with ff and thor with few scvs is almost unkilable by gatway units)
So he does not die to early pressure. Tanks come out earlier than Thor.
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I've been doing this build tonight but instead of building 1 bunker, I build 2 instead at the top of my ramp since 4 gate or 3 gate pressure cane easily break my ramp with only 1 bunker, a tank and 1 hellion around. I think key is using the hellion after the tank for scouting.
I'm curious as to what others have adopted to this build to 4 gate or 3 gate pressure.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On April 27 2011 04:03 LastMan wrote:
i dont know why he did 1 tank isnt it better to just rush to thor (they pop out almost the same time) while making cc then go out and FE (u cant be contained with ff and thor with few scvs is almost unkilable by gatway units)
well Thorzain did this build on xelnaga vs Adelscott but it was unrefined and failed hard... he didnt go for tank or raven in that game and just died to a radnom attack.. tank is for defensive purposes
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So in what way is this thor build better than the tank build? I mean Tank/Hellion/Viking seems to be far more superior in every way.
Critical mass tanks are much better at handling immortals and colossi than thors 350mm cannon.
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Voidrays look good on paper. But Viking/Thor completely shuts you down in positioning. If it were as easy as not clumping them I'd use them too, but good luck trying to get them in position, your Stalkers are always trying to swat away the Viking and the Thors cover the Viking pretty darn well.
It just doesn't work out, you take too much damage entering the fight and clump up, whilst in theory should be avoidable, never pans out the way you think it does in battle.
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On April 27 2011 17:15 Terranium wrote:
So in what way is this thor build better than the tank build? I mean Tank/Hellion/Viking seems to be far more superior in every way.
Critical mass tanks are much better at handling immortals and colossi than thors 350mm cannon.
For whatever reason, mass Thor just really cuts through gateway units despite not having splash. I think it has something to do with the range 7 Thors forming a 2/3 deep wall. Thors for the space they take up do the most DPS per gas per unit so their formation is DPS dense. Their formation is also HP dense. Protoss units have to push into and stay inside this range 7 death zone assuming you can fit all your DPS into this kill zone. Because Thors need to be focussed, the Protoss units have to be in this kill zone for quite a while losing DPS while the Thors lose DPS slower because its hard to focus just one Thor at a time. They also don't have the same weakness to zealots as tanks do.
That's my experience anyway.
As for void rays, you can use void rays but you don't want too many void rays. They are there more to distract the Thors' target AI, force vikings, and do support DPS. If you overbuild void rays, you have to either have so many void rays that its not a contest or a Terran with decent AA will just win the ground battle and kill your VRs with reinforcements.
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Trying to copy exactly what thorzain did is not the good way to do it. just see the composition and search yourself the way to get there. also the build is made for some specific map if it wasn't he would have used on every map against MC and tyler.
<3 ThorZain for having bring this build to the light
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in todays sotg gretorp said mech is never going to be viable vs toss and everybody agreed, maybe except in rare occasions as a timing attack (like this build) but as a solid late game builds its just too immobile (ofcourse if map is small it still could work but thats not the trend we have nowadays)
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On April 28 2011 00:09 LastMan wrote:
in todays sotg gretorp said mech is never going to be viable vs toss and everybody agreed, maybe except in rare occasions as a timing attack (like this build) but as a solid late game builds its just too immobile (ofcourse if map is small it still could work but thats not the trend we have nowadays)
AAAANNND right after that Incontrol mentioned the thorzain build as very effective and it's a good tool to use sometime.
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On April 28 2011 00:09 LastMan wrote:
in todays sotg gretorp said mech is never going to be viable vs toss and everybody agreed, maybe except in rare occasions as a timing attack (like this build) but as a solid late game builds its just too immobile (ofcourse if map is small it still could work but thats not the trend we have nowadays)
Watch them be completely wrong...
I hope that this build gets really popular and then some protoss hass comes out with a carrier build that is amazing... I really hope.
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On April 28 2011 00:25 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 00:09 LastMan wrote:
in todays sotg gretorp said mech is never going to be viable vs toss and everybody agreed, maybe except in rare occasions as a timing attack (like this build) but as a solid late game builds its just too immobile (ofcourse if map is small it still could work but thats not the trend we have nowadays) Watch them be completely wrong... I hope that this build gets really popular and then some protoss hass comes out with a carrier build that is amazing... I really hope.
The thing is, all the things that made Carriers worthwhile in BW PvT aren't there in SC2 PvT.
Problem 1 - Marines are REALLY good. Even if used for nothing other than a mineral dump, you probably want at least 1 barracks pumping out Marines constantly. They offer the best DPS/cost in the game, and when teamed up with Thor/Tanks, they force Protoss to get splash units, which are going to be mostly useless against the Mech side of your army. They also have the effect of nullifying interceptors because they can shoot up.
Problem 2 - Thors are pretty much anti-interceptor. They have no need for weapon upgrades, come with 1 armor, and have tons of health. While a Thor can't do anything to the Carrier itself, they swat down Interceptors by the dozens.
Problem 3 - Vikings will strike the finishing blow. Due to including Marines in your army earlier, you have forced Colossi onto the field, which will mean you want a couple Vikings to clean those up as well. Not as many as you would if you were going bio, but they're still useful with their massive range. Going Carrier instead doesn't help you. Sure the Carriers will do better vs the Vikings than Colossi would, but in order to hit vikings you need interceptors, if those are being shot down instantly by Marines and Thors, your Carriers are neutered and waiting to die. If you wait for a large engagement instead, your Carriers will be sitting ducks for the vikings to pick off while their interceptors target everything randomly.
Problem 4 - EMP is REALLY good. Any Terran will eventually want Ghosts. If he's going Mech, the Ghosts will be secondary, but still desired in a "perfect composition". If you thought EMP was good vs a standard ground army, wait until the AoE hits 30 interceptors on top of whatever ground comp you've got.
Not saying mech is imba or anything, there are ways to deal with it I'm sure, but Carriers are not that.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 28 2011 00:39 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 00:25 GreEny K wrote:On April 28 2011 00:09 LastMan wrote:
in todays sotg gretorp said mech is never going to be viable vs toss and everybody agreed, maybe except in rare occasions as a timing attack (like this build) but as a solid late game builds its just too immobile (ofcourse if map is small it still could work but thats not the trend we have nowadays) Watch them be completely wrong... I hope that this build gets really popular and then some protoss hass comes out with a carrier build that is amazing... I really hope. The thing is, all the things that made Carriers worthwhile in BW PvT aren't there in SC2 PvT. Problem 1 - Marines are REALLY good. Even if used for nothing other than a mineral dump, you probably want at least 1 barracks pumping out Marines constantly. They offer the best DPS/cost in the game, and when teamed up with Thor/Tanks, they force Protoss to get splash units, which are going to be mostly useless against the Mech side of your army. They also have the effect of nullifying interceptors because they can shoot up. Problem 2 - Thors are pretty much anti-interceptor. They have no need for weapon upgrades, come with 1 armor, and have tons of health. While a Thor can't do anything to the Carrier itself, they swat down Interceptors by the dozens. Problem 3 - Vikings will strike the finishing blow. Due to including Marines in your army earlier, you have forced Colossi onto the field, which will mean you want a couple Vikings to clean those up as well. Not as many as you would if you were going bio, but they're still useful with their massive range. Going Carrier instead doesn't help you. Sure the Carriers will do better vs the Vikings than Colossi would, but in order to hit vikings you need interceptors, if those are being shot down instantly by Marines and Thors, your Carriers are neutered and waiting to die. If you wait for a large engagement instead, your Carriers will be sitting ducks for the vikings to pick off while their interceptors target everything randomly. Problem 4 - EMP is REALLY good. Any Terran will eventually want Ghosts. If he's going Mech, the Ghosts will be secondary, but still desired in a "perfect composition". If you thought EMP was good vs a standard ground army, wait until the AoE hits 30 interceptors on top of whatever ground comp you've got. Not saying mech is imba or anything, there are ways to deal with it I'm sure, but Carriers are not that.
Carriers do fantastic against mech once you hit critical mass, even considering that they kill interceptors. You always couple carriers with high templar against terran to storm the marines, stopping them from killing the interceptors. Thors actually don't do that well against interceptors because of how lousy their AI is, they often just spin in circles without shooting.
The problem is getting carriers, their build time is simply too long to really transition into them, especially given their front loaded cost, and you really need at least 4 of them together.
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EPT
