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On April 19 2011 12:10 BallsOfSteel wrote:I tend to favor Roach/Corruptor based strategies, but I can see that this has potential. Using Colossi controlled by NP to negate FF usage is a nice touch and I'll try it out. Since you will be getting Melee and Carapace upgrades consistently, this could also transition nicely into a late game with Baneling/Infestor/Ultralisk. The one thing I see preventing this from being a guide is the lack of opening build(s). From the replays, I would say these are the basic requirements for this mid-game strategy: - At least 2 bases with saturation on both minerals and gas - Lair tech - Enough map control to fight in favorable positions Since these are requirements for the strategy, they should be the goals for any opening builds that you incorporate. I use two that I think would be ideal for reaching these goals quickly, without giving an edge to your opponent. 1) 11 Pool, 19 Hatch (I picked this up from a replay of EVORekatan) http://www.youtube.com/user/Rekatan#p/u/7/8tStlgu8Tfg- Aggressive style that tries to gain advantage by denying enemy expo - Harder to Pylon block since the Hatchery goes down as 2 sets of Lings spawn - Has the option to forgo the mid-game of Ling/Infestor if you see an opening to end the game sooner - Very good against 1 base play (4Gate, early Robo tech, etc) 2) 15Hatch, 14Pool or 16Hatch, 15Pool (no real difference between the two for me) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017 - A good example - Defensive style that uses Queens and Spines to deal with early pressure (if there is any) - You can stop at 2 Queens and go heavy on Spines if you think a rush is coming or - You can get 2 Spines and go heavy on Queens if you think a rush is coming (preferable, since it also deals with air and doesn't lose as many Drones) - 2 or more Extractors when you have saturation on both mineral lines
Since map control is a huge part of this build, wouldn't the 14/14 be a more favorable opening when compared to early hatches? Having 6 speedlings roaming the map early will keep the Protoss turtled for a while (unless the Protoss goes 4gate).
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How would a good amount of phoenixes do lifting up the infestors? I've been using phoenixes to lift up infestors if I don't have HT's to feedback/storm.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 19 2011 22:48 aXa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 22:44 Rob28 wrote:
Don't know if this has been brought up yet, but IMO this build may run into some problems if protoss goes voidray heavy with his ball.
Thoughts? Please, this is not thread-worthy because all of this as been already debated on my guide on week ago http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211407You can find all the response you need about Zergling, baneling, infestor, high templar, void ray, etc. Saying that Zergling-Baneling-Infestor-Ultralisk is the same as Zergling-Infestor is like saying Bio-Mech is the same as SKTerran. Infested Terrans were left out of your guide completely. They are much more powerful than you think. You say three infestors is enough -- This is a mass infestor idea. You claim infestors are weak to feedback -- When you only make three of them I might agree but if you have lots of them feedback is no problem at all. Fungal is an aoe spell and cancels the feedback commands of each of the high templar that it hits. In real games, whether you are bronze league or playing in the GSL, your infestors will triumph over his high templar. You claim infestors are weak to phoenixes -- When they come at me with phoenixes I just fungal them and cast a few infested terrans to clear them up. Committing to phoenix and or void rays vs mass infestors is a blunder. You say to switch to hydralisks to finish void rays after killing their ground army -- Both fungal and infested terrans have a range of 9 while void rays have a range of 6. I could go on but I hope that's enough.
oh my god did i screw that up 
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Just tested this today vs a maxed protoss with stalkers and colussus. This is just redicolously overrated, it isn't good. If youre against a protoss thats smart he will just target fire the infestors easily and take them down. I had 20 infestors, about 120 supply lings. Lings in first, infestors in after but they got melted with 3 armor upgrade and their 90 hp -.-
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Great job getting the strat out there for the community! ^^ One thing i would like to point out that you can add to disadvantages is that how reliant you are on infestors. You NEED those infestors alive, so you need to protect them. Now im a 3300+ masters so when i see this comp (most likely im going to have blink with HT or close to having HT) near max what i do is i dont fully engage until i see i can do it without that many infestors alive. I would send it my ht alone to feedback as much as possible. I would sac about 4 stalkers to blink forward and snipe as many infestors as i can. Also i blink and snipe if i see neural parasite. So just watch out for getting you infestors sniped, because if you lose half of them before the fight even starts then you will most likely lose the fight if the toss has decent enough micro to target infestors with Feedback or blink stalkers. Other than that have fun and practice this awesome strat! ^.^;;
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Honestly the toss would have won if he knew how to control his units well...if you noticed he was focusing the overseer for some reason and those forcefields...well they weren't even decent.
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On April 20 2011 04:57 Olsson wrote:
Just tested this today vs a maxed protoss with stalkers and colussus. This is just redicolously overrated, it isn't good. If youre against a protoss thats smart he will just target fire the infestors easily and take them down. I had 20 infestors, about 120 supply lings. Lings in first, infestors in after but they got melted with 3 armor upgrade and their 90 hp -.-
You mean 60 supply of lings and 40 supply of infestors, right? You can NP his colossi before they can kill your infestors.
Flanking colossi and siege tanks is often the difference between winning and losing.
Please post your replay so I can see what went wrong.
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Can the Automaton2000 beat a 200/200 protoss army with only Infestors?
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On April 20 2011 04:57 Olsson wrote:
Just tested this today vs a maxed protoss with stalkers and colussus. This is just redicolously overrated, it isn't good. If youre against a protoss thats smart he will just target fire the infestors easily and take them down. I had 20 infestors, about 120 supply lings. Lings in first, infestors in after but they got melted with 3 armor upgrade and their 90 hp -.-
I think infestors are suppose to be spead out and you are suppose to have ultras or broodlords by then. Also it depends if you are attacking the toss in an open area or not. I think ling/infestor is a good mid game vs toss until you can get hive tech up and 3rd or 4th up safely because it is so fast on creep.
@OP: did you read the game of thrones?
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On April 20 2011 03:58 Curiosity wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 19 2011 12:10 BallsOfSteel wrote:I tend to favor Roach/Corruptor based strategies, but I can see that this has potential. Using Colossi controlled by NP to negate FF usage is a nice touch and I'll try it out. Since you will be getting Melee and Carapace upgrades consistently, this could also transition nicely into a late game with Baneling/Infestor/Ultralisk. The one thing I see preventing this from being a guide is the lack of opening build(s). From the replays, I would say these are the basic requirements for this mid-game strategy: - At least 2 bases with saturation on both minerals and gas - Lair tech - Enough map control to fight in favorable positions Since these are requirements for the strategy, they should be the goals for any opening builds that you incorporate. I use two that I think would be ideal for reaching these goals quickly, without giving an edge to your opponent. 1) 11 Pool, 19 Hatch (I picked this up from a replay of EVORekatan) http://www.youtube.com/user/Rekatan#p/u/7/8tStlgu8Tfg- Aggressive style that tries to gain advantage by denying enemy expo - Harder to Pylon block since the Hatchery goes down as 2 sets of Lings spawn - Has the option to forgo the mid-game of Ling/Infestor if you see an opening to end the game sooner - Very good against 1 base play (4Gate, early Robo tech, etc) 2) 15Hatch, 14Pool or 16Hatch, 15Pool (no real difference between the two for me) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017 - A good example - Defensive style that uses Queens and Spines to deal with early pressure (if there is any) - You can stop at 2 Queens and go heavy on Spines if you think a rush is coming or - You can get 2 Spines and go heavy on Queens if you think a rush is coming (preferable, since it also deals with air and doesn't lose as many Drones) - 2 or more Extractors when you have saturation on both mineral lines Since map control is a huge part of this build, wouldn't the 14/14 be a more favorable opening when compared to early hatches? Having 6 speedlings roaming the map early will keep the Protoss turtled for a while (unless the Protoss goes 4gate).
Sure, 14gas/14Pool would be a good opening that denies an enemy expansion for a while and takes early map control. However, it only really matches up well with one of the three basic goals for an opening build (Edit: The three basic goals that I identified, that is. The OP may decide there are more or less).
The early Speedlings build is good at gaining map control, but isn't so good at quickly saturating two bases or getting sustainable Lair tech all that fast. In order to support upgrades and Infestors, you need to be mining from all the gas on at least two bases, which doesn't happen all that fast.
This is where the early Hatch builds come in. They don't get map control as quickly (although 11Pool, 19Hatch takes it much faster than Hatch first), but they do attain saturation faster with a stronger push into Lair tech. Since you won't need total map control until just before you move out with Infestors, this is acceptable.
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Here's a replay of me using Ling-Infestor in a ladder game and it utterly failing (but I still won the match). I attribute this build to evening the playing field of the Protoss Deathball--by no means countering it.
http://drop.sc/6845
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Lately I've been going ling/roach (if needed) early game into standardish mutaling play midgame to get the econ up and prevent his econ, and as my mutas slowly start to lose their value, anyone who plays mutaling vs protoss knows that point I'm talking about, I start to get infestors out to complement my lings, and i don't think I've lost a single zvp using this where I've gotten to the point where I have about 15 mutas. The rest of the game of keeping their econ stifled with mutas and crushing their army with ling/infestor, brood lord if it goes on long enough, is just ez mode. Sometimes I mix in banelings for fun if I'm at a huge advantage :B
So yeah, this definitely works, I've tried it, and it's a blast, and fungal counters the counter to mutaling, blink, and honestly suiciding mutas to pick off high templar if they make them is the best way to deal with them, and if you successfully get all of his templar even losing all your mutas, you pretty much win.
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for people who are having concerns with their opening:
i have had some success with burrow+bane as they are relatively low cost and come out quickly enough to punish straight gateway aggression off a hallu scout. showing burrow tech and banelings will force toss into robo+obs and while this might just be a low masters thing, i have found that the time that buys me is enough to start the infestor train rolling.
and if they're just too stupid to notice, sometimes they walk over your banes.
thats fine too.
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lol I love your visual representation of a death ball
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On April 20 2011 02:48 Alejandrisha wrote:
I think as long as Z doesn't scout a 2 base timing such as 5 gate or 6 gate, they can survive with just a handful of roaches on 2 base and get some infestors out on 3 base. I played Ret the other day and he just smashed me with roach/infestor/baneling drop/speedling. I got a pretty quick 3rd up but he was able to pick me apart while I am trying to defend multiple locations. I'll upload the replay in exactly one hour and twenty minutes when I am home. Clearly a great replay to watch to show how to own passive toss.
It's been more than 1:20 since this post. I'd really like to see this replay
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Verrrrrrrry interesting! I've theorycrafting up a different (from what I've been doing) ZvP style that starts with ling baneling (the Aquanda style), and then transitions into infestor and baneling drop and finally to ultra. I had a question though: did neural parasite get buffed from 12 seconds to 15? I remember it being 12 for some reason.
I can see this style forcing protoss into templar tech. In the video, the closest battle was the second one at 27 seconds, where the toss used feedback on a lot of your infestors, but didn't use any forcefields, so your lings destroyed him. A toss with no collosi, but templar/zealot/sentry could do well against this. His lack of collosi makes it so you can't destroy forcefields, which could be a problem. That is gonna take some perfect execution by the toss though. I suppose you would be able to deal with that comp with baneling drops pretty well also, as both templar and sentries are light and slow, and kill overlords poorly.
I'll DEFINITELY be incorporating with mass infestor with NP into my ZvP
Edit: at the OP: how fast are you getting infestors? In a similar vein, how are you attempting to defend against 4 and/or 6 gate attacks? You mentioned very specifically to ONLY get lings and infestors, but I'm not sure that's actually safe against early gateway pressure.
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On April 19 2011 17:31 Geo.Rion wrote:
You do realize, that the video and screenshot u posted showcases a Protoss army with 2 colossi, 0 VRs and it's not even close to maxed?
Ling ifestor is cool, it definetly does not crush the Protoss deathball, actually it wont kill a single unit vs a well shaped P deathball with good FFs, what infestor ling is good for is to stall the P long enough to rush out the hive units/ surround-stun it in order for Baneling drops to work perfectly
Please read his comments in the thread before you say this... OR maybe watch his replays but idk.....
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On April 19 2011 09:51 nymeria wrote:
1. The zerg army will always crush a same-sized or bigger protoss army.
![[image loading]](http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfysm3rWgb1qe91wdo1_500.gif)
So what, it only loses to smaller armies?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 19 2011 10:19 nymeria wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 10:12 Misanthrope wrote:
Go into map editor, create an optimal 200/200 protoss ball and zerg army. Then record it and edit this post. While that would be interesting in a way, this thread/forum is not for theorycrafting. Only real in-game situations.
and how is a 200/200 protoss deathball not an ingame situation? the guy was only at 140 supply and had no voidrays. hardly a deathball.
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Contributing, just tried this strat, omfg its powerful!
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How does this fare against forge FE into 7-gate stalkers with boosting upgrades? Once he gets enough stalkers and +2 weapons to make your lings die in three hits instead of four your lings will get murdered, and I'm not sure infestors are enough to turn the tide. He can always blink forward the second he sees infestors, even if you get fungal off at this point you're still going to lose the infestors and then are left with a mass of zerglings that are really ineffective against a giant stalker ball.
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EPT
