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On March 31 2011 02:55 Selkie wrote:
I'm not sure how much, if any, damage stalkers would do. My bunkers cover:
A) My ramp
B) My natural's mineral line
How are stalkers going to be able to shoot without being shot at?
I can see that stopping Stalker pokes on maps where you can easily wall off your ramp to force units to go around the CC + bunkers + rax to get up, but on any map where the nat is too far away from the ramp to do that, couldn't they just run by to your main mineral line? Also, on maps with a lot of space behind the minerals at the nat, I can't imagine your 2 bunkers are actually blocking every spot within 6 range of an SCV.
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I feel that a 15 cc would be viable on macro maps but something like xel naga or metal close would be easily scouted. they could 3 gate and you'd be in trouble. one way to hold off any pushes would be bunkers. Prolly 2 maybe 3 at the natural, you'd definitely wanna pull scvs to repair if the push is big.
the biggest problem will be holding off the first push if they scout you.
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A better question is whether or not the economic gain would be worth it or even if one would truly exist.
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On March 30 2011 22:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 22:53 Dommk wrote:
Lose to 3gate. 4gate you could survive, but with 3 gate they will just camp the bottom of your ramp and you won't be able to get out, since you 14cc'ed you delayed a ton of tech, if you try tech too quickly to Medivacs then they will just walk up the ramp and kill you If you no rax cc it should probably be placed at your nat, together with bunkers... Otherwise this would just happen everytime, seems a bit pointless.
Just like Jinro and the other guy said, some form of rush would happen every time. If I saw someone go CC before rax, then I would just cancel my gateway, drop a forge and proceed to cannon rush you (but only mildly) while I expand and then while you wasted 400 minerals on a command center, I will grab a few gateways and contain you.
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Low-mid diamond here. Had some terran drop a 15 CC on me on Tal'Darim, the scout pattern meant I could not respond with my own early nexus in time. A 4gate quickly solved the problem, much to his anger. Even if you get a bunker up, you just don't have the marine numbers to stop it.
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On March 31 2011 09:21 Jayrod wrote:
A better question is whether or not the economic gain would be worth it or even if one would truly exist.
The economic gain from being able to produce 2 scvs at the same time is less apparent than from a straight up mule, but this is geared towards a long long macro game, because this allows you to get a much faster third, since you'll actually have the SCVs to saturate it.
When you go regular expo (after 2 rax pressure) or even 1 rax 1 marauder, when your natural CC finishes you will won't be able to saturate it and it will be a LONG time before you have 2 saturated bases and enough scvs to saturate the 3rd.
15CC seems extremely risky to me though, 3 gate VR can abuse the hell out of it, because marines just melt to VR/zealot (marines will retardedly shoot thr VR allowing zealots to get in close).
I think 15CC is more for TvZ where a good wall-off can protect you until mutas, whereas in TvP it cannot due to warp-in bs, prism and void ray allins.
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I ran a test on xnc comparing 15cc and 1rax fe
In both cases, I built depots fairly sequentially after 21 supply, but made zero army.. just let the cash and empty depots pile up. Both gasless.
3 minutes - 16scvs 560 income 75 cash ... vs ... 15scvs 620 income 415 cash
4 minutes - 19scvs 640 income 360 cash .. vs ... 17scvs 860 income 430 cash
5 minutes - 20scvs 1140 income 675 cash .. vs .. 21scvs 860 income 840 cash
6 minutes - 27scvs 1520 income 1515 cash .. vs ... 24scvs 940 income 1435 cash
7 minutes - 34scvs 1660 income 2240 cash .. vs ... 30scvs 1580 income 2250 cash
8 minutes - 41scvs 2040 income 3575 cash .. vs .. 37scvs 1680 income 3300 cash
9 minutes - 47scvs 2040 income 5005 cash .. vs .. 44scvs 1840 income 4660 cash
bear in mine the scv and income numbers are just snapshots and not perfect for example the income number may lag or a new scv may be just about to pop at each time point.
Up to 5 minutes something, you have less free cash (for units). Early CC, extra early OC cost..
Just prior to 6 minutes your income is accelerating away with the 15cc vs the 1rax fe and you've got about the same free cash now, and are starting to build an scv/mule lead.
At 8 minutes you banked 300 more minerals and are ahead 4 or 5 scvs and a mule or two. I actually stopped building scvs towards 9 minutes in the 15cc because of saturation.
Before the 9 minute mark your two base mineral saturation is done for 15cc but not quite done for 1rax fe. (obviously if four gas you're not saturated at all).
In order to be ready for a 4gate or early lings as 1rax fe, you need to have spent that 1500 on another rax, two or three bunkers and marines, you have more income than production facilities for a while, so you must do stuff like build bunkers and put 2 marines in each.
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works against 3gate expand but blink stalkers....
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Alright, I'm editing the OP to include many of the concerns- along with the income.
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On March 31 2011 10:32 nyc863 wrote:
I ran a test on xnc comparing 15cc and 1rax fe
In both cases, I built depots fairly sequentially after 21 supply, but made zero army.. just let the cash and empty depots pile up. Both gasless.
3 minutes - 16scvs 560 income 75 cash ... vs ... 15scvs 620 income 415 cash
4 minutes - 19scvs 640 income 360 cash .. vs ... 17scvs 860 income 430 cash
5 minutes - 20scvs 1140 income 675 cash .. vs .. 21scvs 860 income 840 cash
6 minutes - 27scvs 1520 income 1515 cash .. vs ... 24scvs 940 income 1435 cash
7 minutes - 34scvs 1660 income 2240 cash .. vs ... 30scvs 1580 income 2250 cash
8 minutes - 41scvs 2040 income 3575 cash .. vs .. 37scvs 1680 income 3300 cash
9 minutes - 47scvs 2040 income 5005 cash .. vs .. 44scvs 1840 income 4660 cash
bear in mine the scv and income numbers are just snapshots and not perfect for example the income number may lag or a new scv may be just about to pop at each time point.
Up to 5 minutes something, you have less free cash (for units). Early CC, extra early OC cost..
Just prior to 6 minutes your income is accelerating away with the 15cc vs the 1rax fe and you've got about the same free cash now, and are starting to build an scv/mule lead.
At 8 minutes you banked 300 more minerals and are ahead 4 or 5 scvs and a mule or two. I actually stopped building scvs towards 9 minutes in the 15cc because of saturation.
Before the 9 minute mark your two base mineral saturation is done for 15cc but not quite done for 1rax fe. (obviously if four gas you're not saturated at all).
In order to be ready for a 4gate or early lings as 1rax fe, you need to have spent that 1500 on another rax, two or three bunkers and marines, you have more income than production facilities for a while, so you must do stuff like build bunkers and put 2 marines in each.
interesting, thanks! there really isn't an advantage for quite a while, and 1 rax makes it safer obviously. i'm just gonna go 1 rax FE on taldarim now...
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on the big gsl maps its viable, u still need to look out for warpprism and dts if he is onebasing u.
on the laddermaps except taldarim its not viable
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I feel like a 3gate robo 1base colossus or 3x Immortal push would give this build a lot of trouble. I will test tonight though as I really like expansion-first builds for T and P.
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initial reaction, i scout after gate -> see early cc planted at nat -> add forge, send zealot start making 1 cannon near the expansion and expand behind this myself :D dunno how it would work in practice though
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interesting how most of the players in here discuss about 3 gate or 4 gate agression
A possible answer to a 15 CC is a fast zealot+ stalker attack. On the most standard-sized maps the Terran should not have more than 1 marine to defend.
Most of the times i played against 15CC, i was able to deal a lot of damage by killing off several scvs with this first attack while i was playing a one gate expo.
As others said before, harassing with the scouting probe is pretty strong against 15Cc as well, because of the distance your "reinforcing" scvs need to travel to get to the natural.
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EPT
