EPT[D] 15 CC TvP- Viable? - Page 2
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Selkie
United States530 Posts
You wall off with this build, to stop anything from running into your main. You have at least one bunker covering both your ramp and some of your natural DT's can very easily be held off- ANYTHING LATER THAN A 4 GATE CAN BE HELD. (Possible exception for blink stalkers, if you have aweful micro V gosu micro- have not tested this enough) The economic advantage is actually larger than you'd think- initially, it's a bit smaller, but you have two OC's much faster than you would with 1 rax FE. | ||
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Plague1503
Croatia466 Posts
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Plague1503
Croatia466 Posts
On March 31 2011 00:40 Selkie wrote: The economic advantage is Actually larger than you'd think- initially, it's a bit smaller, but you have two OC's much faster than you would with 1 rax FE. This. Early double MULEs can really, to quote one of the cheesiest SC lines EVER, kick your production into overdrive. :D | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On March 31 2011 00:40 Selkie wrote: At around that 5:30 mark I've had just enough guys + bunkers that I think I could hold this off. You wall off with this build, to stop anything from running into your main. You have at least one bunker covering both your ramp and some of your natural DT's can very easily be held off- ANYTHING LATER THAN A 4 GATE CAN BE HELD. (Possible exception for blink stalkers, if you have aweful micro V gosu micro- have not tested this enough) The economic advantage is actually larger than you'd think- initially, it's a bit smaller, but you have two OC's much faster than you would with 1 rax FE. I've played against Blink stalkers plenty off a bunker expand. With only marines and SCVs, you can't hold if the other player micros even half decently. Stalkers are faster and have longer range than marines and with Blink, they can deal with a nearly infinite amount. You can't tech too far because then you will only have stimless marines at the point of attack, but you also need to get enough tech to deal with these stalkers (preferably upgraded MM). Marauders are pretty much a must as a follow up to a 15 CC. | ||
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
If I do see the cc I'm going to attack that scv to delay that cc as long as possible with the worker harass, and I could proxy a stargate after the core finishes and use that void ray for vision to get warp ins into your main. How many workers can be killed if I chronoboost out 2 stalkers out of 2-gates, and do early aggression before concussive shells, if my harass is going well im going to get 2 more stalkers. How does this do against an immortal drop with 3 gates of warp-ins for support? What about them proxy void rays? I doubt a DT build would hurt this too much as you should be taking advantage of the 4 gas with a double engineering bay so turrets should be availible by the 7 minute mark, along side the extra scans from the second orbital. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
As jinro said earlier, you need those bunkers. | ||
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underdawg
United States399 Posts
On March 31 2011 01:21 Sabin010 wrote: Gold League Protoss here. On 4-player maps vs T I always scout at 9 and harass with the scout. If you're dropping a 15 cc on the natural, I am going to suspect proxy rax, and immediately start a second gate in my main. If I do see the cc I'm going to attack that scv to delay that cc as long as possible with the worker harass, and I could proxy a stargate after the core finishes and use that void ray for vision to get warp ins into your main. How many workers can be killed if I chronoboost out 2 stalkers out of 2-gates, and do early aggression before concussive shells, if my harass is going well im going to get 2 more stalkers. How does this do against an immortal drop with 3 gates of warp-ins for support? What about them proxy void rays? I doubt a DT build would hurt this too much as you should be taking advantage of the 4 gas with a double engineering bay so turrets should be availible by the 7 minute mark, along side the extra scans from the second orbital. with a 15 cc, a proxy rax, or a rax of any sort is impossible. and no one is gonna proxy rax after a 15 CC...you kind of need the rax in your base to defend, as the time has passed to do a cheesy proxy. i dunno, with a FE my focus is on getting as many units as possible so i don't die. i really doubt players will have double ebay by 7 mins. you're just talking out of your butt | ||
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Came Norrection
Canada168 Posts
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revy
United States1524 Posts
I can't comment on how viable or safe this opening is in SC2 I'ld be interested in taking a look though. | ||
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rolfe
United Kingdom1266 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On March 31 2011 01:35 rolfe wrote: would some kind of void ray play beat this? I'd say probably not. You'll probably be massing quite a few marines for early game defense, so those should do just fine against Void Rays. If you invest quickly in marauders however, that could be trouble. | ||
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Wintertime
Canada64 Posts
On March 31 2011 01:27 underdawg wrote: with a 15 cc, a proxy rax, or a rax of any sort is impossible. and no one is gonna proxy rax after a 15 CC...you kind of need the rax in your base to defend, as the time has passed to do a cheesy proxy. i dunno, with a FE my focus is on getting as many units as possible so i don't die. i really doubt players will have double ebay by 7 mins. you're just talking out of your butt He meant that if he didn't see a rax down yet, nor the CC (assume we're at like 13 supply) he would expect you're cheesing, which would prompt his response of throwing down that second gateway. With further scouting, he'll see the CC go down, and know he can use his 2 gateways to pressure that greedy opening. 15CC is autolose to anything cheesy. It will also lose to anything hitting before you have been able to get up a decent army (obviously), a timing which is about 4:30 to 5:00. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
i'd suggest using it on maps with small choke at the natural though (ie. taldarim) so you can defend better with your bunkers. I used to build the CC right at the natural spot but then a friend told me it'd be better to build it in main to be safer from proxy gates. what i advice is to have an scv ready on the spot at your natural right when your rax is done to get a bunker because a chrono boosted zealot on maps like testbug can be real pain (if you havent scouted yet) my follow up is to actually get 1gas to get stim started asap (not sure but 2gas with 4 scvs total could be better) and then add 3 more rax to mass marine, try to sneak an scv to scout, if not possible use one of the first scans to scan P natural if he is getting an expansion IN RESPONSE. if not, get a lot of bunkers and scout your choke/your main for warpins/4gate rushes and have scvs ready for repair. get ebay soon for DTs too. not sure how it works with the +30sec stim now though i think vs fast warprisms you don't have the stim in time. | ||
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
On March 31 2011 01:27 underdawg wrote: with a 15 cc, a proxy rax, or a rax of any sort is impossible. and no one is gonna proxy rax after a 15 CC...you kind of need the rax in your base to defend, as the time has passed to do a cheesy proxy. i dunno, with a FE my focus is on getting as many units as possible so i don't die. i really doubt players will have double ebay by 7 mins. you're just talking out of your butt You misunderstood me. The timing of when I get into terran's base, (from a protoss perspective) with my scout is going to be before that 15 cc has even started. I won't see anything and I will assume there must be some sort of proxy rush coming. This is going to cause me to invest more into units. Also you're not going to be able to deny my scouting so I will see the 15 cc and problebly just start my rush right then. As for this beating void rays. If its a proxy void ray with the void rays giving vision for a spotter pylon I see this failing hard. Void rays have further range than the marines and with zealots under the void ray sitting in a spot so the marines get hit by the vray while the marines can't even hit the zealot then if they try the zealot just attacks marines. I don't see how it would work. Especially if I sent stalkers up to the nat while the void rays go for the main. | ||
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Selkie
United States530 Posts
Voidrays: They can be held Warp prism: You need to scout, and be good. This can be held, but you need to be good and active. Not for sub-diamond, I'm tempted to say sub-masters. I've gotten away with it on Xel'naga. Proxy 2gate zealot can be held, however, a cannon rush *might* not. (I can't hold a cannon rush as is >_>. I'd assume you cancel your CC, go for a rax, and pray.) Again, good scouting is needed. Fast expanding is still GOOD. I'm not sure how much, if any, damage stalkers would do. My bunkers cover: A) My ramp B) My natural's mineral line How are stalkers going to be able to shoot without being shot at? | ||
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hmsrenown
Canada1263 Posts
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oNSarcasm
104 Posts
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Exstasy
United Kingdom393 Posts
because i love playing with risks ahah, And i like a challenge ^_^ even if the advantage is negligable I still feel so cool when i drop the CC | ||
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