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So, I've been messing around, and it seems like a 15 CC can work TvP- the only thing I've struggled with is fending off chronoboosted aggression in close positions. Then again, if you're going 15 CC close slag pits, you kind of deserve it.
What I'd like to discuss is if there are any protoss openers/reactions that could cause trouble for this opener. I can hold off a 4gate "easily", along with all the other one base play that comes later than a 4gate. I'm wondering if there are any openings that I'm missing which could get me killed. (proxy voids, etc)
Something worth nothing about 15CC is that bio is the only viable transition. (It's the only way I can hold off a 4gate- I was able to hold off once with 3 rax and a factory once, but the 4gate was poorly executed). The advantage to this is since your protoss opponent might try to punish you with a 4gate, once you hold with 3 bunkers, you can more or less counter and win. Or do anything at all and win.
If protoss fast expands himself, it'll be later than yours.
Again, this will not work close.
Thoughts?
EDIT: The type of chronoboosted aggression I'm talking about is blindly chronoing out a few units, and being very aggressive with them.
Alright, many people have brought up concerns, here's more details:
1) OMG NOOB 15CC isn't better than 1 rax FE.
On March 31 2011 10:32 nyc863 wrote:
I ran a test on xnc comparing 15cc and 1rax fe
In both cases, I built depots fairly sequentially after 21 supply, but made zero army.. just let the cash and empty depots pile up. Both gasless.
3 minutes - 16scvs 560 income 75 cash ... vs ... 15scvs 620 income 415 cash
4 minutes - 19scvs 640 income 360 cash .. vs ... 17scvs 860 income 430 cash
5 minutes - 20scvs 1140 income 675 cash .. vs .. 21scvs 860 income 840 cash
6 minutes - 27scvs 1520 income 1515 cash .. vs ... 24scvs 940 income 1435 cash
7 minutes - 34scvs 1660 income 2240 cash .. vs ... 30scvs 1580 income 2250 cash
8 minutes - 41scvs 2040 income 3575 cash .. vs .. 37scvs 1680 income 3300 cash
9 minutes - 47scvs 2040 income 5005 cash .. vs .. 44scvs 1840 income 4660 cash
bear in mine the scv and income numbers are just snapshots and not perfect for example the income number may lag or a new scv may be just about to pop at each time point.
Up to 5 minutes something, you have less free cash (for units). Early CC, extra early OC cost..
Just prior to 6 minutes your income is accelerating away with the 15cc vs the 1rax fe and you've got about the same free cash now, and are starting to build an scv/mule lead.
At 8 minutes you banked 300 more minerals and are ahead 4 or 5 scvs and a mule or two. I actually stopped building scvs towards 9 minutes in the 15cc because of saturation.
Before the 9 minute mark your two base mineral saturation is done for 15cc but not quite done for 1rax fe. (obviously if four gas you're not saturated at all).
In order to be ready for a 4gate or early lings as 1rax fe, you need to have spent that 1500 on another rax, two or three bunkers and marines, you have more income than production facilities for a while, so you must do stuff like build bunkers and put 2 marines in each.
It's actually easier to hold a 4gate when you 15 CC than if you 1 rax expand, because the economy kicks in right before the 4gate, with 1 rax expand, it's slightly after the 4gate timing.
What about 3 gate contain?
On March 30 2011 22:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 22:53 Dommk wrote:
Lose to 3gate. 4gate you could survive, but with 3 gate they will just camp the bottom of your ramp and you won't be able to get out, since you 14cc'ed you delayed a ton of tech, if you try tech too quickly to Medivacs then they will just walk up the ramp and kill you If you no rax cc it should probably be placed at your nat, together with bunkers... Otherwise this would just happen everytime, seems a bit pointless.
What about stalker run-bys?
They shouldn't get into your main, since you should be walling off the top of your ramp anyways. You should have a bunker covering your ramp so something can't hit your buildings uncontested.
Blink stalkers?
This becomes an intense micro war. It's also pretty all-inish from your protoss opponent- if they don't deal damage, they're massively behind.
Drop prism play: Good, active scouting.
DT play: Good scouting, remember to throw down an engineering bay and a turret if you get suspicious.
Void rays: You should have produced a good number of marines. A multi-pronged attack could be hard to hold off, but not impossible.
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Lose to 3gate. 4gate you could survive, but with 3 gate they will just camp the bottom of your ramp and you won't be able to get out, since you 14cc'ed you delayed a ton of tech, if you try tech too quickly to Medivacs then they will just walk up the ramp and kill you
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Would a 15 nexus put the toss on equal footing?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 30 2011 22:53 Dommk wrote:
Lose to 3gate. 4gate you could survive, but with 3 gate they will just camp the bottom of your ramp and you won't be able to get out, since you 14cc'ed you delayed a ton of tech, if you try tech too quickly to Medivacs then they will just walk up the ramp and kill you
If you no rax cc it should probably be placed at your nat, together with bunkers... Otherwise this would just happen everytime, seems a bit pointless.
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I'm not building the 15 CC inside my main, I'm planting it like zerg or protoss would.
3 gate blink might give me trouble.
If they're camping the bottom of a secondary ramp (think: sharkuas, Tal'darim), I have two working bases.
I tend to push off of rax tech as is- I delay medivacs until the 12 minute mark or so.
Tech isn't that delayed, except for stim, etc.
A 15 nexus would, but it'd be a blind 15 nexus. If toss responds to my 15 CC by canceling stuff and expanding themselves, I've gained a tiny edge.
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Do you 1rax FE or CC first ? Personally, i find CC first not really that viable, since the economical advantage you get is negligable compared to the risk you take by delaying your rax that much.
If it's a 1rax FE, it's a perfectly viable opening.
And yes, a 15 nexus puts the toss on equal footing or even slightly ahead.
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This is 15 CC- as in, 10 supply, 15 CC BO. No workers cut, CC before rax.
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You have to add two bunkers almost immediately or you will be broken. Blink CAN break this, but only with perfect control. Most players will expand or double expand rather than trying to use blink.
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I'd love to see a terran do this, pretty sure I could deny the expo whilst expo'ing myself off 1 gate with half decent micro.
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Thank you wolf; having not enountered blink myself, I didn't know if it'd work.
I generally tend to go rax-bunker-rax-bunker-rax rax *3rd bunker if I've scouted 4gate). Gas taken one at a time, techlabs, etc added on as I see fit.
Almost zerg-like, I tend to focus on adding more rax down and making workers than constantly producing units out of them IF I scout a 4gate- the rational behind it is I can hold a 4gate if I have 4 rax up.
Someone may know better than me on this, if so, would love the feedback.
Scarecrow, how would you break this, assuming a "normal" opener on your part?
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The hitches with a fast expand that relies on bunkers for defense in the early game is that any kind of method used to bypass the bunkers will wreak havoc on you. This can include:
Proxy Pylon warp ins with Obs vision
Blink Stalkers
Warp Prism drops/warp ins
DT runbys
Any one of these methods can be used to kill you if the Protoss chooses so, but they are all also possible to defend against, so long as your scouting is good. 15 CC is not a low level opener, so you should use it knowing the risks. Patrol marines on the outskirts of your base to spot proxies, hold watchtowers for vision for drops and use your scans to know what tech path your opponent is taking.
Blink Stalkers is the most difficult to deal with even if scouted, because it comes rather quickly and you may not have the tech to deal with it. I believe such a fast CC needs to tech slowly but safely in order to stay alive in the early game. Marauders + Marines with Stim/Shell should hold off any pushes and let you reap your economic advantage to its fullest in the midgame.
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It can be safe on the big maps where you can place a bunker that covers the entire entrance to your main, but I still think it's a lousy build.
The thing is, because your OC will be a lot later then a 13 rax the economic advantage of a 15 CC is very small compared to a more standard, 1 rax no gas FE.
In other words you are taking a fair risk to do a build that has very minimal economic advantage compared to the much safer build. Things like probe harass on your scv making the CC or your opponent being 'lucky' and scouting you quickly with a 9 scout are all way more troublesome with 15 CC that I think, why even bother?
The fact you can scout later with 1 rax already makes up most of the economic disadvantage it has.
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well when no rax scouted why would protoss not chrono out some units? I think 3 stalker rush while expanding will be especially troublesome.
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On March 30 2011 22:57 Selkie wrote:
I'm not building the 15 CC inside my main, I'm planting it like zerg or protoss would.
3 gate blink might give me trouble.
If they're camping the bottom of a secondary ramp (think: sharkuas, Tal'darim), I have two working bases.
I tend to push off of rax tech as is- I delay medivacs until the 12 minute mark or so.
Tech isn't that delayed, except for stim, etc.
A 15 nexus would, but it'd be a blind 15 nexus. If toss responds to my 15 CC by canceling stuff and expanding themselves, I've gained a tiny edge.
Well it depends on map, but scouting on 9 should allow u to see no barracks, and a cc planting.
with that, and with the scouting on 9 leading to maybe a 14ish gate anyway, 15 nexus isn't really out of the realm of possibility.
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United States7483 Posts
Huge risk for tiny gain over a one rax expand, viable on big maps like Taldarim Altar, but I wouldn't really recommend it on anything smaller. Any fast warp prism play will wreck your day.
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It might work on big maps I think. What about the scouting probe? Do you have to send another scv to prevent it from killing the scv that is building the cc? And what about chronoboosted 1st zealot harass?
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It's viable but I think luck and the map plays a huge factor. It would work if Protoss scouted last on a map like tal darim, but if the Protoss scouts you first and chronos out units it'll be hard to hold. Spawn positions obviously play a huge role as well. Overall a pretty risky opening, 1 rax expand would be better.
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3-4 gate robo 1 base with immediate warp prism is difficult to hold without losing many scv.
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Perhaps DT play?
and I also have a lot of success from just seeing a 15 cc and 4gating
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doesn't seem like a good idea. 3 gate can hit u at 5:30 with like 5 zlots and 8 stalkers (if properly executed), and i doubt you would have enough guys to hold that off.
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At around that 5:30 mark I've had just enough guys + bunkers that I think I could hold this off.
You wall off with this build, to stop anything from running into your main.
You have at least one bunker covering both your ramp and some of your natural
DT's can very easily be held off-
ANYTHING LATER THAN A 4 GATE CAN BE HELD.
(Possible exception for blink stalkers, if you have aweful micro V gosu micro- have not tested this enough)
The economic advantage is actually larger than you'd think- initially, it's a bit smaller, but you have two OC's much faster than you would with 1 rax FE.
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I've been doing it in almost every game on Tal'Darim and Terminus. Absolutely viable if you turtle up with 2 Bunkers and start producing Marines ASAP.
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On March 31 2011 00:40 Selkie wrote:
The economic advantage is Actually larger than you'd think- initially, it's a bit smaller, but you have two OC's much faster than you would with 1 rax FE.
This. Early double MULEs can really, to quote one of the cheesiest SC lines EVER, kick your production into overdrive. :D
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On March 31 2011 00:40 Selkie wrote:
At around that 5:30 mark I've had just enough guys + bunkers that I think I could hold this off.
You wall off with this build, to stop anything from running into your main.
You have at least one bunker covering both your ramp and some of your natural
DT's can very easily be held off-
ANYTHING LATER THAN A 4 GATE CAN BE HELD.
(Possible exception for blink stalkers, if you have aweful micro V gosu micro- have not tested this enough)
The economic advantage is actually larger than you'd think- initially, it's a bit smaller, but you have two OC's much faster than you would with 1 rax FE.
I've played against Blink stalkers plenty off a bunker expand. With only marines and SCVs, you can't hold if the other player micros even half decently. Stalkers are faster and have longer range than marines and with Blink, they can deal with a nearly infinite amount.
You can't tech too far because then you will only have stimless marines at the point of attack, but you also need to get enough tech to deal with these stalkers (preferably upgraded MM). Marauders are pretty much a must as a follow up to a 15 CC.
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the last time someone did 15 CC to me, I did a 4gate hallucinated colossus to warp units up into his main when he's busy defending against me from the earlier troops i made that are camped outside the expo
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Gold League Protoss here. On 4-player maps vs T I always scout at 9 and harass with the scout. If you're dropping a 15 cc on the natural, I am going to suspect proxy rax, and immediately start a second gate in my main.
If I do see the cc I'm going to attack that scv to delay that cc as long as possible with the worker harass, and I could proxy a stargate after the core finishes and use that void ray for vision to get warp ins into your main.
How many workers can be killed if I chronoboost out 2 stalkers out of 2-gates, and do early aggression before concussive shells, if my harass is going well im going to get 2 more stalkers.
How does this do against an immortal drop with 3 gates of warp-ins for support?
What about them proxy void rays?
I doubt a DT build would hurt this too much as you should be taking advantage of the 4 gas with a double engineering bay so turrets should be availible by the 7 minute mark, along side the extra scans from the second orbital.
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I go CC first sometimes on the huge new maps, the GSL one in particular. If you practice walling with a couple rax with spaces for a bunker or two in between you can usually hold early agression quite well, but you have to wait to tech up until you are safe.
As jinro said earlier, you need those bunkers.
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On March 31 2011 01:21 Sabin010 wrote:
Gold League Protoss here. On 4-player maps vs T I always scout at 9 and harass with the scout. If you're dropping a 15 cc on the natural, I am going to suspect proxy rax, and immediately start a second gate in my main.
If I do see the cc I'm going to attack that scv to delay that cc as long as possible with the worker harass, and I could proxy a stargate after the core finishes and use that void ray for vision to get warp ins into your main.
How many workers can be killed if I chronoboost out 2 stalkers out of 2-gates, and do early aggression before concussive shells, if my harass is going well im going to get 2 more stalkers.
How does this do against an immortal drop with 3 gates of warp-ins for support?
What about them proxy void rays?
I doubt a DT build would hurt this too much as you should be taking advantage of the 4 gas with a double engineering bay so turrets should be availible by the 7 minute mark, along side the extra scans from the second orbital.
with a 15 cc, a proxy rax, or a rax of any sort is impossible. and no one is gonna proxy rax after a 15 CC...you kind of need the rax in your base to defend, as the time has passed to do a cheesy proxy.
i dunno, with a FE my focus is on getting as many units as possible so i don't die. i really doubt players will have double ebay by 7 mins. you're just talking out of your butt
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I think anything less than a 1 rax marauder pressure expo is going to get you contained to 1 base when protoss goes 3 gate expo. which is kinda bad because you are going to be mining out of your main really fast and you don't get to have 2 mineral lines of saturation.
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I remember someone did a very good economical analysis of BW and SC2. The gist of it was that having 10-20 probes on a single mineral line was much better in SC2 then it was in BW whereas having <10 or >20 probes on a mineral line was better in BW than in SC2. This helps to explain why 14 CC / 12 Nexus / Hatch first eventually became much stronger in BW. You really saw a marked improvement having 2 mineral lines with 10 workers than a single mineral line with 20. In SC2 with improved worker AI this difference is not as marked. While certainly having a second worker producing structure is good from an economy perspective it didn't provide the same "bang for the buck" as it did in BW.
I can't comment on how viable or safe this opening is in SC2 I'ld be interested in taking a look though.
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would some kind of void ray play beat this?
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On March 31 2011 01:35 rolfe wrote:
would some kind of void ray play beat this?
I'd say probably not. You'll probably be massing quite a few marines for early game defense, so those should do just fine against Void Rays. If you invest quickly in marauders however, that could be trouble.
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On March 31 2011 01:27 underdawg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 01:21 Sabin010 wrote:
Gold League Protoss here. On 4-player maps vs T I always scout at 9 and harass with the scout. If you're dropping a 15 cc on the natural, I am going to suspect proxy rax, and immediately start a second gate in my main.
If I do see the cc I'm going to attack that scv to delay that cc as long as possible with the worker harass, and I could proxy a stargate after the core finishes and use that void ray for vision to get warp ins into your main.
How many workers can be killed if I chronoboost out 2 stalkers out of 2-gates, and do early aggression before concussive shells, if my harass is going well im going to get 2 more stalkers.
How does this do against an immortal drop with 3 gates of warp-ins for support?
What about them proxy void rays?
I doubt a DT build would hurt this too much as you should be taking advantage of the 4 gas with a double engineering bay so turrets should be availible by the 7 minute mark, along side the extra scans from the second orbital. with a 15 cc, a proxy rax, or a rax of any sort is impossible. and no one is gonna proxy rax after a 15 CC...you kind of need the rax in your base to defend, as the time has passed to do a cheesy proxy. i dunno, with a FE my focus is on getting as many units as possible so i don't die. i really doubt players will have double ebay by 7 mins. you're just talking out of your butt
He meant that if he didn't see a rax down yet, nor the CC (assume we're at like 13 supply) he would expect you're cheesing, which would prompt his response of throwing down that second gateway. With further scouting, he'll see the CC go down, and know he can use his 2 gateways to pressure that greedy opening.
15CC is autolose to anything cheesy. It will also lose to anything hitting before you have been able to get up a decent army (obviously), a timing which is about 4:30 to 5:00.
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15cc can be actually very good
i'd suggest using it on maps with small choke at the natural though (ie. taldarim) so you can defend better with your bunkers. I used to build the CC right at the natural spot but then a friend told me it'd be better to build it in main to be safer from proxy gates.
what i advice is to have an scv ready on the spot at your natural right when your rax is done to get a bunker because a chrono boosted zealot on maps like testbug can be real pain (if you havent scouted yet)
my follow up is to actually get 1gas to get stim started asap (not sure but 2gas with 4 scvs total could be better) and then add 3 more rax to mass marine, try to sneak an scv to scout, if not possible use one of the first scans to scan P natural if he is getting an expansion IN RESPONSE. if not, get a lot of bunkers and scout your choke/your main for warpins/4gate rushes and have scvs ready for repair. get ebay soon for DTs too.
not sure how it works with the +30sec stim now though i think vs fast warprisms you don't have the stim in time.
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On March 31 2011 01:27 underdawg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 01:21 Sabin010 wrote:
Gold League Protoss here. On 4-player maps vs T I always scout at 9 and harass with the scout. If you're dropping a 15 cc on the natural, I am going to suspect proxy rax, and immediately start a second gate in my main.
If I do see the cc I'm going to attack that scv to delay that cc as long as possible with the worker harass, and I could proxy a stargate after the core finishes and use that void ray for vision to get warp ins into your main.
How many workers can be killed if I chronoboost out 2 stalkers out of 2-gates, and do early aggression before concussive shells, if my harass is going well im going to get 2 more stalkers.
How does this do against an immortal drop with 3 gates of warp-ins for support?
What about them proxy void rays?
I doubt a DT build would hurt this too much as you should be taking advantage of the 4 gas with a double engineering bay so turrets should be availible by the 7 minute mark, along side the extra scans from the second orbital. with a 15 cc, a proxy rax, or a rax of any sort is impossible. and no one is gonna proxy rax after a 15 CC...you kind of need the rax in your base to defend, as the time has passed to do a cheesy proxy. i dunno, with a FE my focus is on getting as many units as possible so i don't die. i really doubt players will have double ebay by 7 mins. you're just talking out of your butt
You misunderstood me. The timing of when I get into terran's base, (from a protoss perspective) with my scout is going to be before that 15 cc has even started. I won't see anything and I will assume there must be some sort of proxy rush coming. This is going to cause me to invest more into units. Also you're not going to be able to deny my scouting so I will see the 15 cc and problebly just start my rush right then.
As for this beating void rays. If its a proxy void ray with the void rays giving vision for a spotter pylon I see this failing hard. Void rays have further range than the marines and with zealots under the void ray sitting in a spot so the marines get hit by the vray while the marines can't even hit the zealot then if they try the zealot just attacks marines. I don't see how it would work. Especially if I sent stalkers up to the nat while the void rays go for the main.
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Alright, I've had 5 games on tal'darim today, all of which I did 14 CC. Only lost one when my macro slipped, and I had 500 minerals when 4gate hit. (Epic fail)
Voidrays: They can be held
Warp prism: You need to scout, and be good. This can be held, but you need to be good and active. Not for sub-diamond, I'm tempted to say sub-masters.
I've gotten away with it on Xel'naga.
Proxy 2gate zealot can be held, however, a cannon rush *might* not. (I can't hold a cannon rush as is >_>. I'd assume you cancel your CC, go for a rax, and pray.) Again, good scouting is needed.
Fast expanding is still GOOD.
I'm not sure how much, if any, damage stalkers would do. My bunkers cover:
A) My ramp
B) My natural's mineral line
How are stalkers going to be able to shoot without being shot at?
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Blink stalkers will give this build the most trouble, but I'd try it on Tal'Darim/Terminus
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If its a map with a big natural i dont see how this could work well, i've played against terran who 1rax FE me before and all i do against them is 4gate. The 4gate doesn't work as well on maps with a natural that can be defended by a few bunkers or with a ramp like shakuras but most maps like metal or shattered, all i do is walk around the bunkers with my units. Even if your bunker gets a few free shots off on my units or kills a unit i still get all my army around your bunkers without too much trouble, with that i can just sit behind ur mineral line and shut down your expo. On a map like Shattered i can put a pylon at the gold and warp in behind the side area where the rocks are. Even if you have 2-3 bunkers you will only have 1 that will have the range to shoot my units when i run by if the natural is big enough.
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15CC is how i want to open every game.
because i love playing with risks ahah, And i like a challenge ^_^
even if the advantage is negligable I still feel so cool when i drop the CC
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15CC is rly bad in SC2 i mean its the same as 1rax FE you have the same scv count and other stuff.
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On March 31 2011 00:50 b_unnies wrote:
the last time someone did 15 CC to me, I did a 4gate hallucinated colossus to warp units up into his main when he's busy defending against me from the earlier troops i made that are camped outside the expo
This makes me sad. It always seem that anytime Terran makes any progress the fact that Toss can just walk up into your base just crushes the dream 
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On March 31 2011 03:29 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 00:50 b_unnies wrote:
the last time someone did 15 CC to me, I did a 4gate hallucinated colossus to warp units up into his main when he's busy defending against me from the earlier troops i made that are camped outside the expo This makes me sad. It always seem that anytime Terran makes any progress the fact that Toss can just walk up into your base just crushes the dream Progress? 15 CC is ridiculously greedy considering the metagame where protoss is going to 3 gate or 2/3 gate robo. Same reason i stopped one gate expanding except on huge maps like altar, because of the multiple ways a terran can punish or all in.
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15 cc sucks cause you don't get your first mule very soon and will be economicly even with a 1 rax fe but with less tech and less marines.
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I'm sorry, but how are you supposed to stop them from chronoing out 2 zealots followed by stalkers and transitioning into 3/4 gate? I feel like I could do significant damage, meanwhile preventing you from building a bunker with my chrono'd units while I put up more gates and then hit u hard. I have actually done this before, but it aws a while ago. Maybe they guy just fucked up the build, but in theory this makes sense to me. I'm kind of confused how you're supposed to deal with 2 chrono'd zealots followed by stalkers . I don't think you could get a bunker up while I'm hitting you with all of this. Then when I come with a 3/4 warpgates it's GG.
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On March 31 2011 03:39 uSnAmplified wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 03:29 GinDo wrote:On March 31 2011 00:50 b_unnies wrote:
the last time someone did 15 CC to me, I did a 4gate hallucinated colossus to warp units up into his main when he's busy defending against me from the earlier troops i made that are camped outside the expo This makes me sad. It always seem that anytime Terran makes any progress the fact that Toss can just walk up into your base just crushes the dream Progress? 15 CC is ridiculously greedy considering the metagame where protoss is going to 3 gate or 2/3 gate robo. Same reason i stopped one gate expanding except on huge maps like altar, because of the multiple ways a terran can punish or all in.
Really? 1 Gate is the PvT Standard followed by a Robo then Nexus. And FF is more then capable of defending any stim push. Not to mention the Stim Nerf.
1 Gate Robo is safe unless you don;t know how to use FF.
Terran has the biggest issue FEing because of how gay Toss can be with Voids which forces you to split your forces. Immortals that rape bunkers, FF that split your early Bio. Yeah toss should really be afraid.
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On March 31 2011 03:59 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 03:39 uSnAmplified wrote:On March 31 2011 03:29 GinDo wrote:On March 31 2011 00:50 b_unnies wrote:
the last time someone did 15 CC to me, I did a 4gate hallucinated colossus to warp units up into his main when he's busy defending against me from the earlier troops i made that are camped outside the expo This makes me sad. It always seem that anytime Terran makes any progress the fact that Toss can just walk up into your base just crushes the dream Progress? 15 CC is ridiculously greedy considering the metagame where protoss is going to 3 gate or 2/3 gate robo. Same reason i stopped one gate expanding except on huge maps like altar, because of the multiple ways a terran can punish or all in. Really? 1 Gate is the PvT Standard followed by a Robo then Nexus. And FF is more then capable of defending any stim push. Not to mention the Stim Nerf. 1 Gate Robo is safe unless you don;t know how to use FF. Terran has the biggest issue FEing because of how gay Toss can be with Voids which forces you to split your forces. Immortals that rape bunkers, FF that split your early Bio. Yeah toss should really be afraid.
If you're afraid of a rush you can evacuate your expansion. You really don't need to have your CC in place until Protoss claims his expansion anyway. One base two Orbital is better than one base one nexus.
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On March 31 2011 03:59 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 03:39 uSnAmplified wrote:On March 31 2011 03:29 GinDo wrote:On March 31 2011 00:50 b_unnies wrote:
the last time someone did 15 CC to me, I did a 4gate hallucinated colossus to warp units up into his main when he's busy defending against me from the earlier troops i made that are camped outside the expo This makes me sad. It always seem that anytime Terran makes any progress the fact that Toss can just walk up into your base just crushes the dream Progress? 15 CC is ridiculously greedy considering the metagame where protoss is going to 3 gate or 2/3 gate robo. Same reason i stopped one gate expanding except on huge maps like altar, because of the multiple ways a terran can punish or all in. Really? 1 Gate is the PvT Standard followed by a Robo then Nexus. And FF is more then capable of defending any stim push. Not to mention the Stim Nerf. 1 Gate Robo is safe unless you don;t know how to use FF. Terran has the biggest issue FEing because of how gay Toss can be with Voids which forces you to split your forces. Immortals that rape bunkers, FF that split your early Bio. Yeah toss should really be afraid. 1 gate FE i not "the pvt standard" just because you think it is and it supports your argument, the issue goes both ways because terran has just as many ways to abuse a protoss FE, including people who thor rush every game because they know it cant be held with forcefields.
If you are going to be greedy, know what you are doing and be prepared to pay the consequences instead of whining about it.
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I'd like to try this out sometime, but I first I want to know a more complete build order. For Selkie or anyone else whose had success with this, when do you get your barracks and when do you make your main an orbital? And lastly, gas before 2nd rax or after 2nd rax?
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On maps like crevasse it's possible. If it's better then 1rax FE: I don't know...
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On March 31 2011 04:39 Dente wrote:
On maps like crevasse it's possible. If it's better then 1rax FE: I don't know...
i think you get slightly better eco with 15cc but faster stim with 1rax expo
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Any map that has a wide open natural or environmental exploits, via Warpgates, makes both the 15CC and the 1 marine expand pretty darn risky. Especially on the ladder.
I think I'm going to go on record and say I don't really like the 15CC. I'm not sold on it yet.
You're relying on bunkers (risky + $$$)
You're delaying tech and production
You're now double producing SCVs ...
Obviously if it goes unchecked and the threshold of vulnerability passes it is incredibly useful, but on the ladder where you have no concept of your opponent's style (unless you're high level and face a lot of well known or the same opponents) I still favor "safer" openers.
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I have been experimenting with blind 15CC a lot, I like to wall-off with Rax, CC and depot since even proxy zealots don't deal enough DPS to keep your buildings from finishing and subsequently being repaired (check inbase after depot though  ).
It's just dissapointing that you're going through a lot of trouble (probe harass bleh) while in the end it'll net you about 2 SCV's more than you'd have with a much simpler and safer 1 Rax FE. At the 6 min (4-gate) mark your economy is pretty much equal to 1 Rax FE, but with less marines to defend. Timings work out so you can get 2 additional rax building before the CC finishes while having just enough minerals to morph it into an OC, but I kinda feel like I need a bunker ready around the 4:30 mark to hold off the inevitable zealot stalker push with just marines.
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On March 31 2011 03:59 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 03:39 uSnAmplified wrote:On March 31 2011 03:29 GinDo wrote:On March 31 2011 00:50 b_unnies wrote:
the last time someone did 15 CC to me, I did a 4gate hallucinated colossus to warp units up into his main when he's busy defending against me from the earlier troops i made that are camped outside the expo This makes me sad. It always seem that anytime Terran makes any progress the fact that Toss can just walk up into your base just crushes the dream Progress? 15 CC is ridiculously greedy considering the metagame where protoss is going to 3 gate or 2/3 gate robo. Same reason i stopped one gate expanding except on huge maps like altar, because of the multiple ways a terran can punish or all in. Really? 1 Gate is the PvT Standard followed by a Robo then Nexus. And FF is more then capable of defending any stim push. Not to mention the Stim Nerf. 1 Gate Robo is safe unless you don;t know how to use FF. Terran has the biggest issue FEing because of how gay Toss can be with Voids which forces you to split your forces. Immortals that rape bunkers, FF that split your early Bio. Yeah toss should really be afraid.
1 gate FE gets a cyber core before FE thus is actually as slow as a 2 rax fe with gas... 15 cc is like a minute before a 1 gate FE.
anyways most protoss either go 3 gate expand or 2 gate robo on ladder against T. some do 1 gate FE but SCV all in kills that every time.
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4 gate 4 gate 4 gate oooohhhhhh.......................crap, not the write song...
Cheese them cheese them
That beats it.
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It seems pretty viable but only on super big maps... anything closer would be bad since 2 probe harass significantly delays this or mining time
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On March 31 2011 07:39 tehemperorer wrote:
It seems pretty viable but only on super big maps... anything closer would be bad since 2 probe harass significantly delays this or mining time
2 zealot harass u mean? cuz i agree. I don't see how the terran can deal with this + stalkers following + 3 gate pressure. Seems like 1 rax FE would be much better
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It has become a standard opener for me in TvP. I build the CC in my base. Double scvs production + double mule = crazy income. If he tries a contain you get tanks and drop him. I start a third CC as soon as I get a safe natural.
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On March 31 2011 08:12 drcatellino wrote:
It has become a standard opener for me in TvP. I build the CC in my base. Double scvs production + double mule = crazy income. If he tries a contain you get tanks and drop him. I start a third CC as soon as I get a safe natural.
This actually seems to be the best idea IMO. Your main is nowhere near saturated on a 15 CC. You don't need to expand immediately. Unless you really need the gas keeping your CC on one base is much safer.
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On March 31 2011 02:55 Selkie wrote:
I'm not sure how much, if any, damage stalkers would do. My bunkers cover:
A) My ramp
B) My natural's mineral line
How are stalkers going to be able to shoot without being shot at?
I can see that stopping Stalker pokes on maps where you can easily wall off your ramp to force units to go around the CC + bunkers + rax to get up, but on any map where the nat is too far away from the ramp to do that, couldn't they just run by to your main mineral line? Also, on maps with a lot of space behind the minerals at the nat, I can't imagine your 2 bunkers are actually blocking every spot within 6 range of an SCV.
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I feel that a 15 cc would be viable on macro maps but something like xel naga or metal close would be easily scouted. they could 3 gate and you'd be in trouble. one way to hold off any pushes would be bunkers. Prolly 2 maybe 3 at the natural, you'd definitely wanna pull scvs to repair if the push is big.
the biggest problem will be holding off the first push if they scout you.
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A better question is whether or not the economic gain would be worth it or even if one would truly exist.
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On March 30 2011 22:57 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 22:53 Dommk wrote:
Lose to 3gate. 4gate you could survive, but with 3 gate they will just camp the bottom of your ramp and you won't be able to get out, since you 14cc'ed you delayed a ton of tech, if you try tech too quickly to Medivacs then they will just walk up the ramp and kill you If you no rax cc it should probably be placed at your nat, together with bunkers... Otherwise this would just happen everytime, seems a bit pointless.
Just like Jinro and the other guy said, some form of rush would happen every time. If I saw someone go CC before rax, then I would just cancel my gateway, drop a forge and proceed to cannon rush you (but only mildly) while I expand and then while you wasted 400 minerals on a command center, I will grab a few gateways and contain you.
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Low-mid diamond here. Had some terran drop a 15 CC on me on Tal'Darim, the scout pattern meant I could not respond with my own early nexus in time. A 4gate quickly solved the problem, much to his anger. Even if you get a bunker up, you just don't have the marine numbers to stop it.
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On March 31 2011 09:21 Jayrod wrote:
A better question is whether or not the economic gain would be worth it or even if one would truly exist.
The economic gain from being able to produce 2 scvs at the same time is less apparent than from a straight up mule, but this is geared towards a long long macro game, because this allows you to get a much faster third, since you'll actually have the SCVs to saturate it.
When you go regular expo (after 2 rax pressure) or even 1 rax 1 marauder, when your natural CC finishes you will won't be able to saturate it and it will be a LONG time before you have 2 saturated bases and enough scvs to saturate the 3rd.
15CC seems extremely risky to me though, 3 gate VR can abuse the hell out of it, because marines just melt to VR/zealot (marines will retardedly shoot thr VR allowing zealots to get in close).
I think 15CC is more for TvZ where a good wall-off can protect you until mutas, whereas in TvP it cannot due to warp-in bs, prism and void ray allins.
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I ran a test on xnc comparing 15cc and 1rax fe
In both cases, I built depots fairly sequentially after 21 supply, but made zero army.. just let the cash and empty depots pile up. Both gasless.
3 minutes - 16scvs 560 income 75 cash ... vs ... 15scvs 620 income 415 cash
4 minutes - 19scvs 640 income 360 cash .. vs ... 17scvs 860 income 430 cash
5 minutes - 20scvs 1140 income 675 cash .. vs .. 21scvs 860 income 840 cash
6 minutes - 27scvs 1520 income 1515 cash .. vs ... 24scvs 940 income 1435 cash
7 minutes - 34scvs 1660 income 2240 cash .. vs ... 30scvs 1580 income 2250 cash
8 minutes - 41scvs 2040 income 3575 cash .. vs .. 37scvs 1680 income 3300 cash
9 minutes - 47scvs 2040 income 5005 cash .. vs .. 44scvs 1840 income 4660 cash
bear in mine the scv and income numbers are just snapshots and not perfect for example the income number may lag or a new scv may be just about to pop at each time point.
Up to 5 minutes something, you have less free cash (for units). Early CC, extra early OC cost..
Just prior to 6 minutes your income is accelerating away with the 15cc vs the 1rax fe and you've got about the same free cash now, and are starting to build an scv/mule lead.
At 8 minutes you banked 300 more minerals and are ahead 4 or 5 scvs and a mule or two. I actually stopped building scvs towards 9 minutes in the 15cc because of saturation.
Before the 9 minute mark your two base mineral saturation is done for 15cc but not quite done for 1rax fe. (obviously if four gas you're not saturated at all).
In order to be ready for a 4gate or early lings as 1rax fe, you need to have spent that 1500 on another rax, two or three bunkers and marines, you have more income than production facilities for a while, so you must do stuff like build bunkers and put 2 marines in each.
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works against 3gate expand but blink stalkers....
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Alright, I'm editing the OP to include many of the concerns- along with the income.
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On March 31 2011 10:32 nyc863 wrote:
I ran a test on xnc comparing 15cc and 1rax fe
In both cases, I built depots fairly sequentially after 21 supply, but made zero army.. just let the cash and empty depots pile up. Both gasless.
3 minutes - 16scvs 560 income 75 cash ... vs ... 15scvs 620 income 415 cash
4 minutes - 19scvs 640 income 360 cash .. vs ... 17scvs 860 income 430 cash
5 minutes - 20scvs 1140 income 675 cash .. vs .. 21scvs 860 income 840 cash
6 minutes - 27scvs 1520 income 1515 cash .. vs ... 24scvs 940 income 1435 cash
7 minutes - 34scvs 1660 income 2240 cash .. vs ... 30scvs 1580 income 2250 cash
8 minutes - 41scvs 2040 income 3575 cash .. vs .. 37scvs 1680 income 3300 cash
9 minutes - 47scvs 2040 income 5005 cash .. vs .. 44scvs 1840 income 4660 cash
bear in mine the scv and income numbers are just snapshots and not perfect for example the income number may lag or a new scv may be just about to pop at each time point.
Up to 5 minutes something, you have less free cash (for units). Early CC, extra early OC cost..
Just prior to 6 minutes your income is accelerating away with the 15cc vs the 1rax fe and you've got about the same free cash now, and are starting to build an scv/mule lead.
At 8 minutes you banked 300 more minerals and are ahead 4 or 5 scvs and a mule or two. I actually stopped building scvs towards 9 minutes in the 15cc because of saturation.
Before the 9 minute mark your two base mineral saturation is done for 15cc but not quite done for 1rax fe. (obviously if four gas you're not saturated at all).
In order to be ready for a 4gate or early lings as 1rax fe, you need to have spent that 1500 on another rax, two or three bunkers and marines, you have more income than production facilities for a while, so you must do stuff like build bunkers and put 2 marines in each.
interesting, thanks! there really isn't an advantage for quite a while, and 1 rax makes it safer obviously. i'm just gonna go 1 rax FE on taldarim now...
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on the big gsl maps its viable, u still need to look out for warpprism and dts if he is onebasing u.
on the laddermaps except taldarim its not viable
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I feel like a 3gate robo 1base colossus or 3x Immortal push would give this build a lot of trouble. I will test tonight though as I really like expansion-first builds for T and P.
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initial reaction, i scout after gate -> see early cc planted at nat -> add forge, send zealot start making 1 cannon near the expansion and expand behind this myself :D dunno how it would work in practice though
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interesting how most of the players in here discuss about 3 gate or 4 gate agression
A possible answer to a 15 CC is a fast zealot+ stalker attack. On the most standard-sized maps the Terran should not have more than 1 marine to defend.
Most of the times i played against 15CC, i was able to deal a lot of damage by killing off several scvs with this first attack while i was playing a one gate expo.
As others said before, harassing with the scouting probe is pretty strong against 15Cc as well, because of the distance your "reinforcing" scvs need to travel to get to the natural.
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EPT
