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On March 22 2011 21:58 shenzu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 14:41 aquanda wrote:
At what game time do you throw down your nexus? + Show Spoiler +The build is very lenient, one less sentry and a slower fourth gateway enables the citadel to be thrown down as warp-gate is about finished. The timings on when the nexus is started should be exactly the same time when a normal 3Gate expand occurs. It is still suspectible to heavy early pressure, therefore getting a cannon up is necessary.
I just want to know an exact game time that your nexus is started assuming zerg doesn't make you build extra units to defend.
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This build order gets DTs out waaaaay too late, it's better to make DTs then expand since while the shrine is building you have enough to place the nexus and still be able to make 3 DT if you don't spend your gas. You are basically getting DTs when their window has long since passed.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I semi-agree with tehemperorer.
If you're still reading, shenzu (or anyone) - do you think it's viable to swap the 3rd gateway and Twilight Council round? This would allow you to get the DTs out a little quicker.
So
2nd gate + TC
3rd gate
Nexus
Forge
Cannon + 4th Gate.
Pros? Cons?
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On March 30 2011 01:39 marvellosity wrote:
I semi-agree with tehemperorer.
If you're still reading, shenzu (or anyone) - do you think it's viable to swap the 3rd gateway and Twilight Council round? This would allow you to get the DTs out a little quicker.
So
2nd gate + TC
3rd gate
Nexus
Forge
Cannon + 4th Gate.
Pros? Cons?
This will give away your quick tech. The strength of this build is in its similarity to the standard 3 gate expand, as I actually stated earlier. Going 2 gateways and then twilight will give you a smaller sentry count early and it has a higher chance of being scouted. The DTs don't need to be quick, they just need to be present. It isn't a DT all in rush.
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Looks like a 3 gate sentry expand, but is not. Really nice build. It'll be very useful in a Bo3.
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Ok let me help you out.
If you want a DT expand build, it is better to get DTs and have enough to place the Nexus rather than place the Nexus and then get DTs. If you watch this DT Expand guide that I made, it will be quite clear the advantages of the build over a DT transition.
http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/282571439
A DT transition doesn't make sense in PvZ really. Dts as late as you suggest come way after lair is complete, and it only takes ~17 seconds to morph an overseer, which is too short a time for the DTs to be effective. Since the DTs run speed is identical to workers, you can't chase them when they run, and if you do, that 17 second window is gone before you know it and now you have invested money in basically nothing. Also, it takes 2 DTs 30 seconds to snipe a hatchery, and it takes 3 DTs 20 seconds to snipe a hatchery. Every transfuse grants a bonus 5 seconds to this time so it is very unlikely that even if you focused the hatch that you would do any damage to the Zerg economy.
I have tried to pioneer a blink stalker/archon PvZ style that so far is doing pretty well, especially against muta/ling and ling/bling droppers, but it makes winning more of a struggle than it has to be because you never actually force the Zerg to react until later in the game, when blink finishes. Therefore, I moved DTs up in the build order and get only 3 to punish fast expands or non-detection equipped Zergs. Since common Zerg styles rely on hatch units/static D to defend, they are typically unprepared and are forced to all-in, which is impossible against a good walloff with 3 gates. Watch that link, here's the build order:
10 pylon
10 gate
12 gas
15 core
17 gas
17 pylon
18 warp gate
20/20 stalker
cb 3 probes (you need your gas to be 150 before you start your TC because of gas income timings)
drive out scouts, place TC, get Zeal
build probes and a gate, then place DShrine. Place a 3rd gateway after the shrine is built but not longer than 25 seconds into the shrine build time (65 gate build time plus 10 second warpgate xform). Go and place forward pylon, if you can't, make sure you have a pylon that can warp on the low ground out of your base. You should be warping in DTs at 6:35-6:40, send 2 at the main and 1 at the nat since the main typically has more drones and will be the hatchery that upgrades to lair. Focus on drones, once they run snipe the hatchery. If you get there before they start their lair, you win because lair build time is 80 and 1 DT can kill a hatch in 60. You then place your Nexus and don't spend minerals after the 3 DTs are in play. If there is no all-in or the Zerg is handling the DT harass, don't lose them, just back off and deny the third. Proceed to only get stalkers, upgrade blink, and when you have a sizeable force, get a robo for obs and start taking away the creep. You need to macro, this build is for macro, it is not for you to all in like some n00b because you will learn nothing and I will have failed in using DT for something other than cheese.
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I like this, but at the same time it feels a little bit risky depending on when the zerg decides to sac an ovie. I've used this several times with mixed results the worst one being the zerg having an overseer by the time my DTs arrived and got shut down. So, in that regard I feel that it's a little risky, but overall a good build to have in your arsenal for a bo3 bo5 etc.
One thing that could assist in making this a little more safe is maybe proxying the dark shrine. The twilight council could say blink, if not, that could also be proxied at your 3rd or something.
Just a thought.
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I've been doing this build for a few months, I don't really feel too great about you trying to coin it :|
It's a very solid build if you can hide your tech though.
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On April 06 2011 12:29 CaptainHaz wrote:
I like this, but at the same time it feels a little bit risky depending on when the zerg decides to sac an ovie. I've used this several times with mixed results the worst one being the zerg having an overseer by the time my DTs arrived and got shut down. So, in that regard I feel that it's a little risky, but overall a good build to have in your arsenal for a bo3 bo5 etc.
One thing that could assist in making this a little more safe is maybe proxying the dark shrine. The twilight council could say blink, if not, that could also be proxied at your 3rd or something.
Just a thought.
Shouldn't have an overseer before 6:45, that's super early (please correct if I'm wrong). A sac overlord comes typically from the same direction depending on map, and you are usually building your shrine behind mineral line and walling off with zeal. The stalker patrols where the sac OL usually comes from.
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I wonder, if you put dt on hold position in mineral line, wouldn't attack nearby enemy unit if queen is not inside of mineral line ?
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ARG WHY DID YOU HAVE TO POST THIS?
I've been using almost this identical build since the patch and been having so much success with it! I haven't lost to a zerg in like, three weeks.
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Very nice to fake your opponent out. Zergs see so much 3gate into stargate or 3gate into robo & colossus that it takes them off guard.
Recently faced FXOtgun and did this (made 3 more sentries so the DT shrine was late, sadface) and enjoyed a nice 10 probe advantage through the midgame and excellent map awareness. He went on to recover the deficit by a burrowed roach attack that sniped my robobay and very poor army positioning on the big engagement, not to mention poor macro on my part. I give this lots of props for how much it resembles other 3gate expand builds where you can be on top of scouting deny and zerg is left in the dark.
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Hi there
I thought this build might be interesting and watched some of those replays to see the timings.
What i have seen in both replays:
The DT tech is easy to scout, since you do get both gas early on but got only 4 sentries and no stalkers ( which is 6 sentries and 2 stalkers without dt tech ). Any good zerg player should see that and react by getting some spores ( the "missing" 300 gas means either DT or Air ).
Once its scouted, there is enough time to react.
The only question remaining is: is it some kind of all in ? And i got to say YES it is.
on the 13 minutes mark where a typical 3 gate expand got 1/2 upgrades and about 140 supply ( first colossus out allready) you are at 100 supply with 0/1 upgrades and no air /coloss/HT tech.
But after all there is one thing about that build making it really bad: Why do you "3gate expand" ? The point of 3 Gate expand is to expand fast and still got enough units to attack a zerg who is droning up too hard. This build prevents you from attacking a zerg early on, meaning even if the zerg is droning too hard, he will outmacro you at about 6 minutes while he will have all the money he needs to get overseers in time. Once your Dt's are killed without doing any damage you can quit the game right there.
So after all ..... once the zerg has some kind of skill level you will be slaughtered without any chance of getting back into the game.
Some numbers:
@ 7 minutes
3 gate expand
~56 supply 6 sentries 2 zealots 2 stalkers, 36 probes
your build:
~38 supply 4 sentries 2 zealot, 26 probes
@ 13 minutes
3 gate expand:
~140 supply 1 colossus out 2nd 3rd half way done
1/2 upgrades (1/3 just started)
your build:
~100 supply , no air /ht tech coloss tech just started
0/1 upgrades ( 1/1 almost done )
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I used to do this like 3-4months back all the time against Zerg. Still doing it sometimes.
DTs are little risky since if they manage do to zero damage you are behind so it isn't most solid/stable opening for PvZ, but definitely good in BoX series to suprise opponent 
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On April 06 2011 17:31 JustAGame wrote:
Hi there
I thought this build might be interesting and watched some of those replays to see the timings.
What i have seen in both replays:
The DT tech is easy to scout, since you do get both gas early on but got only 4 sentries and no stalkers ( which is 6 sentries and 2 stalkers without dt tech ). Any good zerg player should see that and react by getting some spores ( the "missing" 300 gas means either DT or Air ).
Once its scouted, there is enough time to react.
The only question remaining is: is it some kind of all in ? And i got to say YES it is.
on the 13 minutes mark where a typical 3 gate expand got 2-1 upgrades and about 140 supply ( first colossus out allready) you are at 100 supply with 1-0 upgrades and no air /coloss/HT tech.
But after all there is one thing about that build making it really bad: Why do you "3gate expand" ? The point of 3 Gate expand is to expand fast and still got enough units to attack a zerg who is droning up too hard. This build prevents you from attacking a zerg early on, meaning even if the zerg is droning too hard, he will outmacro you at about 6 minutes while he will have all the money he needs to get overseers in time. Once your Dt's are killed without doing any damage you can quit the game right there.
So after all ..... once the zerg has some kind of skill level you will be slaughtered without any chance of getting back into the game.
Some numbers:
@ 7 minutes
3 gate expand
~56 supply 6 sentries 2 zealots 2 stalkers, 36 probes
your build:
~38 supply 4 sentries 2 zealot, 26 probes
@ 13 minutes
3 gate expand:
~140 supply 1 colossus out 2nd 3rd half way done
2-1 upgrades (3-1 just started)
your build:
~100 supply , no air /ht tech coloss tech just started
1-0 upgrades ( 1-1 almost done )
I want to just state that this is an opener and not the go to build every single game. Like mentioned by a lot of members already this opener would be great in a b03 match.
It's true that one can just see the less sentry+stalker count at the front (DTs or Voids) but a good zerg should always believe the Protoss might be hiding units in his base *cough cancel nexus into 4 gate*.
For everyone who is asking about how easily it's scouted/defended think about the current metagame. Scouting is extremely hard for Zerg, good sense of where overlords pop out of is key. Early gas at 19 DOES NOT MEAN DTs and a fool would assume such a thing. Right as the Zerg sees the nexus the zerg is geared towards droning up extremely hard (from 33 drones to 49) or getting an extremely fast third. It's true that in my games if the Zerg was prepared for DTs they would have been greatly ahead but that can also be said for Phoenixes/Voids/Banshees/Hellions. After the DT harass you'll notice that I pull ahead of the Zerg by CBing probes and gaining map control. Denying the third is an even greater victory.
Overseers aren't cheap, and so are static spore/spine crawlers to defend a mineral line. Even then the optimal defense is at least two overseers and a spore which is a big investment.
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Really well written. I like your emphasis on how to use the DTs, what kind of mind set you need to have while using them, and even what to do if the shrine gets scouted. One thing you didn't touch on was forcing Overseers, and Overseer awareness though.
Knowing where your opponents Overseer is has untold benefits when using DTs. Knowing about how long it will take for detection to show up lets you really stretch your invisible killers to their max. Try to keep the Overseers in the back of your head, where did you last seem them? Were they with the army? These two things can help you greatly with my next point...
One thing I wanted to talk about was Warp Prism use with DTs after you take your third. I use DTs a lot in PvZ and I find that a single Warp Prism flying around dropping single DTs where you need them can be hyper, even uber, effective. The places where I usually drops DTs are :
- Tech buildings without detection nearby
- Mineral line when Overseer is far away
- Army where Overseer is far away.
The reasoning behind my third point is as follows, basically I find that one unexplored aspect of the DT is softening up an army. Hydras for instance get raped by DTs, and are about as expensive (approximately don't flame me for this statement) so killing off a few hydras with a DT is pretty cost efficient. It also helps stall a potential death push or drop from the Zerg even longer.
Next time you use this build, once you hold and take a third, get a Warp Prism and try to do some harass all over the map. If you are super cool like me you will skip Collosus and get Prism speed first and control the game with DTs everywhere while you take the map Zerg style. Nothing makes me happier than map-owning a Zerg :D
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I dont think this is viable. First of all its super easy to scout(overlord or overseer flying over your base), With that many sentries you get DT's at 9-10mins which means zerg has already droned to 55 drones and started building roaches. You just cant defend roaches+overseer just with the units you have. And speaking of more commonly used zergling roach allin which is at your natural at 8min which completely destroys this build.
Why DT's worked in MC game is because gas before gate and july didnt scout that, he just saw std 2 sentries and zealot at the ramp. He could expand very fast because map was very large, july went very late lair so no roach speed and no overseer with speedupgrade etc.
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Im a zerg player, so I would like to know your opinion on countering this build with banelings
so if zerg goes for banes instead of roaches, i think he might be able to bust you, because your sentry count will be a little lower then usual, and dts can be killed without vision of them.
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On April 06 2011 22:27 Big J wrote:Im a zerg player, so I would like to know your opinion on countering this build with banelings so if zerg goes for banes instead of roaches, i think he might be able to bust you, because your sentry count will be a little lower then usual, and dts can be killed without vision of them.
Depends on the map. keep in mind you can get archons from dts, which are quite beefy.
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On April 06 2011 22:25 mazqo wrote:
I dont think this is viable. First of all its super easy to scout(overlord or overseer flying over your base), With that many sentries you get DT's at 9-10mins which means zerg has already droned to 55 drones and started building roaches. You just cant defend roaches+overseer just with the units you have. And speaking of more commonly used zergling roach allin which is at your natural at 8min which completely destroys this build.
Why DT's worked in MC game is because gas before gate and july didnt scout that, he just saw std 2 sentries and zealot at the ramp. He could expand very fast because map was very large, july went very late lair so no roach speed and no overseer with speedupgrade etc.
Try the build out, a couple times should be sufficient. The problem with a normal 3 gate expand is that the Zerg can immediately get a third, get those 55 drones easily, and pump those roaches in the mid game. How does playing safe prevent that scenario?
With DTs he'll have to pull back his units to defend or lose the game automatically, during this time throw down plenty of cannons (after scouting how many roaches he has).
Banelings is a possibility, like I mentioned in the guide, you need perfect forcefields with those few sentries. If he went fast banelings than he won't likely be on lair and if you get a couple DTs out you'll win the game right there.
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EPT
