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shenzu's PvZ 3Gate DT Opener

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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shenzu
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada10 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 12:49:35
March 22 2011 04:06 GMT
#1
Hi Fellow Brotoss’, I’m here to introduce you to a build my fellow clan mates and I have composed for PvZ. The build is centered on taking a little risk to punish greedy Zergs in the current meta-game with the dark templar. This is a combination of the 3 Gate sentry expand and dark templar, a mixture of safety and risk.
[image loading]
Dark Templars on creep are even darker

Disclaimer
+ Show Spoiler +
I am a 3850 Master Protoss player. The usage of DTs isn't a new strategy in PvZ but the usage of DTs as an opener after a 3Gate is not as common as robo + stargate play. This build ISN'T meant to end the game, it's a good build to transition out of into the mid-game with an emphasis on map control.

MC showed a very similar build in the GSL finals. His build was a bit riskier due to an earlier gas/lower sentry count. My clan and I have been doing this build for weeks.

Honorable mentions for the creation of this build: 40oz.Yohobo, 40oz.yrotciv, 40oz.Naly

40oz Clan Beercraft


Why?
+ Show Spoiler +
The 3 Gate sentry expand is a very safe build in most circumstances and is a good opener to help transition into the 200/200 Protoss army. The reasoning behind having many sentries is that with good control and force fields you can prevent a lot of early aggression. The majority of Zergs respond by droning hard and setting up a third once they see a sentry expand, which puts the Protoss in a tough position in the mid-game when the Zerg starts to mass units off of three bases. Sometimes setting up a third may is particularly hard once the Zerg is on three bases and has a good economy. The purpose of this build is to punish a greedy Zerg from droning too hard and getting a third too early. This build will allow you to gain map control for a period of time, allowing you to macro hard, get upgrades, and setup your third. This build also helps against potential Multa play because the Citadel is already there, allowing for HT transition.

DTs have the same effect as banshees do in TvZ, getting drone kills, creation of Overseers/Sporecrawlers, and denying scouting. DTs can be used all game, from early drone sniping to late game tech building snipes.


The Build
+ Show Spoiler +
• 9 Pylon
• Send the pylon probe to scout
• 12 Gateway
• 14 Assimilator
• 16 Pylon
• @100% Gateway Cybernetics Core
• @100 minerals Zealot
• 19 Second Assimilator
• @100% Cybernetics Core 1st Sentry, Warpgate
• 22/23 Pylon
• 2nd Sentry and 2 gateways when you have minerals
• @100% gateways produce 2 sentries depending on resources/supply
• Pylons as needed
• @100% Warpgate convert gateways
• Make Citadel when you have the resources
• Nexus, then pylon, then forge right after (cut some probes for a second)
• Add one more gateway (4th) then make Dark Shrine, vice versa
• 5th sentry
• Cannon then Pylon at natural
• 3rd gas at natural, transfer probes
• 3 DTs asap
• 2 more cannons
• Robotics Facility
[image loading]


Dark Templar Usage
+ Show Spoiler +
The purpose of three DTs immediately after the Dark Shrine is done is to send a DT to the main + natural and one more to the started third. You want to only focus on drones with the two DTs, Shift-Clicking as many as you can before the other DT reaches the other base and you’ll want to repeat with the selecting of drones with the other DT. Warning, If you just A-Click the area, the DT will prioritize its attack on the Queen, wasting valuable time and potential damage.

You will want to delay the first moment when your DT attacks, synching the two allows for more damage dealt to the Zerg before he is alerted of DTs. Generally an overseer will be started immediately and drones will be pulled. You can either try to kill as many drones as you can if you’re able to, scout his base for what tech is he on, or hide the DT.


Before Dark Templar Shrine is Complete
+ Show Spoiler +
Since expanding with only 4 sentries is a bit risky, you have to take into account of a mass zergling attack or early roach pressure. Good forcefields and camping your ramp until your cannon is up is usually a good idea. This is much like any normal 3 Gate Fast Expansion build, you just have to play slower and safer. Feel free to lay down two cannons after the nexus is complete and make sure your forcefields aren’t wasted.


After Dark Templar Shrine is Complete
+ Show Spoiler +
A quick transition into Robotics is a good idea, with a heavy emphasis on chronoboosting your probes. You should be able to scout his base and prepare for whatever he has in time. If you see plenty of roaches running around trying to kill your DTs then make a couple more cannons in front of your natural, get a couple more sentries. Get your fourth gas while your DTs are attacking and literally non-stop make probes.

On certain maps you may want to kill the destructible rocks that will become your third. Since DTs are so gas heavy, you will have an excess of minerals, you have a small window to setup your third with a lot of cannons. You need to pump units from your four gateways and make use of the robotics factory (an observer and immortals is usually sufficient to hold roach play). A quick transition into Colossus is ideal once you have a general good idea of what he’s going.

Sniping the third hatchery of the Zerg is very important. If you can kill it, or even delay it for as long as possible it’s ideal. While he is busy moving around trying to defend his base you can macro up and expand. Don’t be afraid to use the DTs mid/late game, even warping in a couple of zealots with the DT to kill a hatch will benefit you greatly.

DTs allow for great scouts, once the DT harass is over, send a DT out to each base, hold position at close available expansions for the Zerg.


Potential Problems
+ Show Spoiler +
Early Roach/Ling Aggression: There’s a timing during the fast expansion where the Zerg strike with 7-10 roaches and many lings right before the shrine is complete. You have to delay with some forcefields and warp in DTs at your natural to defend it. Ideally you’ll want to also send a DT or two immediately at his base to do some damage. 95% of the time, this early Zerg pressure won’t be accompanied with an Overseer and focus the roaches with the DT. To stop this aggression really does come down to your control and forcefields. Ultimately if you can’t hold it off you’ll want to cancel your nexus and go up your ramp and send the DTs out to his main.

Immediate Counteract by the Zerg: This attack comes a bit later, after the DT shrine has been complete. As long as you can snipe the overseer you’re generally fine with DT support. If you suspect him to not bring back his units during the DT harass, make more cannons and prepare for forcefields. You cannot be caught off guard during this period, even one missed forcefield is GG.

Little to No Damage Dealt: Just like any build in the other matchups, if you’ve done little to no damage, you’re behind. If two cloaked banshees are sacrificed and have killed one drone then the Terran is behind. If four hellions do no damage you’re behind.


Tips:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Having a proxy pylon is very recommended.
- Chronoboost probes like mad during the DT harass with a healthy number of cannons to ensure you’re safe
- DTs make excellent drop defense
- Normal transitions into Colossi are usually the best
- Blink is available, also earlier +2, +3 upgrades at the Forge
- Find a general good location to place the shrine is ideal on each map
- If the Zerg does scout your shrine you can also not make DTs and just play normal, at a later time sending some DTs may catch him off guard


Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]

shenzu
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada10 Posts
March 22 2011 04:07 GMT
#2
**Reserved for answering of questions**
uGoatt
Profile Joined November 2010
United States85 Posts
March 22 2011 04:51 GMT
#3
Good stuff. I've been trying to utilize some DT harass vs. Zerg lately. My problem is trying to decide a good transition after the DT harass has been effectively answered by my opponent. I think blink stalkers are a great choice to complement the DTs for obvious reasons. Great for sniping overseers and harrassing overlords as well. Thanks for the post.
Isomer
Profile Joined November 2010
United States186 Posts
March 22 2011 04:58 GMT
#4
How much damage do the DTs usually do with this build? Do you guys find the zergs aren't prepared for DTs? What would be a good timing to send in an overlord to check for this sort of play? Also, where's a good place tosses might position the shrine?
There's nothing cooler than being proud of what you love
MK4512
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada938 Posts
March 22 2011 05:25 GMT
#5
sounds good, will try in my next PvZ!
ty for the guide
Chill: "Please let us know when you will be streaming yourself eating a hat so I can put it on the calendar. Thanks."
Mitchlew
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia428 Posts
March 22 2011 05:31 GMT
#6
Would be good if HT were actually good in 1.3
hitman133
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1425 Posts
March 22 2011 05:34 GMT
#7
I think the Lair finish before your Dark Shine.
aquanda
Profile Joined January 2003
United States477 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 05:43:39
March 22 2011 05:41 GMT
#8
At what game time do you throw down your nexus?
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
March 22 2011 05:45 GMT
#9
I like this phrase here

"synching the two allows for more damage dealt to the Zerg before he is alerted of DTs."

Really nice thought process that you have put into this
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
dementrio
Profile Joined November 2010
678 Posts
March 22 2011 06:20 GMT
#10
I've lost to similar builds a few times. The reason you'll find it effective is that the DTs come at an unusual time. Now I am defaulting to getting a spore at each base a little while after your expansion, much like terrans like to stick 1 turret at their ramp and 1 at their rally point. Even then they are still pretty annoying, I don't know how much in terms of other tech you have to sacrifice but it forces me to spend something like 1k minerals in static defense before I can move out even when you do 0 direct damage.
SCFlavor
Profile Joined February 2011
United States82 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 07:36:11
March 22 2011 07:35 GMT
#11
This is a very nice strategy i have seen it done many times in clan wars and practice games it works really well. It gives you good map control and allows you to macro up. Gj representing Beercraft Shenzu !!
Proud manager of StyleCraft, a top masters clan in NA.
yrotciV
Profile Joined September 2010
United States36 Posts
March 22 2011 07:38 GMT
#12
On March 22 2011 13:58 Isomer wrote:
How much damage do the DTs usually do with this build? Do you guys find the zergs aren't prepared for DTs? What would be a good timing to send in an overlord to check for this sort of play? Also, where's a good place tosses might position the shrine?

+ Show Spoiler +
The damage the dts do varies greatly but usually a minimal of 5-10 drones even if the zerg player is well prepared, as a zerg if u suspect this build u should probably scout at the 5-6 min mark, u cant know where the player will place the shrine


On March 22 2011 14:31 Mitchlew wrote:
Would be good if HT were actually good in 1.3

+ Show Spoiler +
not relevant to this build


On March 22 2011 14:34 hitman133 wrote:
I think the Lair finish before your Dark Shine.

+ Show Spoiler +
as stated in the original post the dts are not supposed to win the game just provide scouting, mild harassment, delay 3rd and keep map presence as u transition into a unit composition that you are conformable with (stalker, colos, etc...)


On March 22 2011 15:20 dementrio wrote:
I've lost to similar builds a few times. The reason you'll find it effective is that the DTs come at an unusual time. Now I am defaulting to getting a spore at each base a little while after your expansion, much like terrans like to stick 1 turret at their ramp and 1 at their rally point. Even then they are still pretty annoying, I don't know how much in terms of other tech you have to sacrifice but it forces me to spend something like 1k minerals in static defense before I can move out even when you do 0 direct damage.


+ Show Spoiler +
^This is why it can be a great build to have in your pvz arsenal
http://www.twitch.tv/yrotciV check out my stream :D
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 12:42:09
March 22 2011 12:37 GMT
#13
I have seen Yayba using this (or at least a similar) build against Nerchio in a recent tournament effectively. I haven't used it...ever but it really is a nice build to have in your arsenal. What I wanted to add is that in my opinion the "actual" BO isn't that important, there are tons of variations possible. The core idea of going 3 gate expo into DTs allows for a very flexible early game. Also I think on most positions you can very much afford to go 2nd assimilator before zealots. Also I think maybe you could get a stalker 2nd to get rid of a potential scouting OL spotting the early TC. (you should correct your BO into robotics facility instead of robotics bay, confused me a bit)

What I like about this build is that it works perfectly under the current metagame where zergs drone hard when they scout sentry-expo (unless they just go all-in of course). The core threat of sentry-expo is that you suddenly end up in a ~50 vs 35 worker situation, which is perfectly possible even on the highest level of play (just recently saw Socke in such a situation on metalopolis cross...). Getting fast DTs gets "rid" of the greedily pumped drones easily, 4 gate robo off 2 base allows for a decent transition into a third. Since you have a TC already, this build isn't too bad vs muta openings either. Definitely have to play more with DTs vs zerg.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
shenzu
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada10 Posts
March 22 2011 12:58 GMT
#14
On March 22 2011 14:41 aquanda wrote:
At what game time do you throw down your nexus?


+ Show Spoiler +
The build is very lenient, one less sentry and a slower fourth gateway enables the citadel to be thrown down as warp-gate is about finished. The timings on when the nexus is started should be exactly the same time when a normal 3Gate expand occurs. It is still suspectible to heavy early pressure, therefore getting a cannon up is necessary.


On March 22 2011 21:37 sleepingdog wrote:
I have seen Yayba using this (or at least a similar) build against Nerchio in a recent tournament effectively. I haven't used it...ever but it really is a nice build to have in your arsenal. What I wanted to add is that in my opinion the "actual" BO isn't that important, there are tons of variations possible. The core idea of going 3 gate expo into DTs allows for a very flexible early game. Also I think on most positions you can very much afford to go 2nd assimilator before zealots. Also I think maybe you could get a stalker 2nd to get rid of a potential scouting OL spotting the early TC. (you should correct your BO into robotics facility instead of robotics bay, confused me a bit)

What I like about this build is that it works perfectly under the current metagame where zergs drone hard when they scout sentry-expo (unless they just go all-in of course). The core threat of sentry-expo is that you suddenly end up in a ~50 vs 35 worker situation, which is perfectly possible even on the highest level of play (just recently saw Socke in such a situation on metalopolis cross...). Getting fast DTs gets "rid" of the greedily pumped drones easily, 4 gate robo off 2 base allows for a decent transition into a third. Since you have a TC already, this build isn't too bad vs muta openings either. Definitely have to play more with DTs vs zerg.

+ Show Spoiler +
Indeed, a lot of zergs just drone way too hard once they see the high count of sentries, Even with 2-3 sentries before the warpgate is complete, I feel it's enough to take out overlords suiciding into your base. A general good building placement is necessary to hide your citadel&shrine

DTs can still be a problem into the mid game when they have gotten rid of the initial 2-3. A DT beats a single lone queen pretty easily, and if you can kill the spore you're golden. Don't underestimate two DTs during a big engagement at his main. You have map control for a while and can send them in when he's moving out.

**thanks for the robo edit
Venomsflame
Profile Joined February 2011
United States613 Posts
March 22 2011 13:57 GMT
#15
I just want to mention 2 main things concerning this build.

1) I have been doing a similar build(with a different follow up and slower dts/less cannons) and the real strength in it is the similarity to the 3 gate expand. A LOT of zergs will see the high sentry count and simply drone up freely knowing there will only be a little pressure early game. This also cause zergs to get a later lair, focusing more on economy macro and map control. Very often the first dts can get 10+ drones and will force overseers, draining a lot of gas. Most zergs are unprepared solely because of how common 3 gate expand is in the PvZ metagame.

2) If the dt shrine is scouted or harass ineffective, I just want to point out how effective archons are in small battles at this point in the game. ESPECIALLY with a quick +2 and 4 gas income, archons and zealots can be extremely strong against a zerg who skimps too much on army. Archon/chargelot is a fantastic combination against muta/ling play and with good upgrades it can beat even heavy roach play with robo support.
Logros
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands9913 Posts
March 22 2011 14:12 GMT
#16
Looking forward to trying this out in PvZ as I've been looking for something new to do.
MuffinFTW
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States235 Posts
March 23 2011 02:52 GMT
#17
Definitely a good build, been testing it. Also not a bad idea to just mass up like 4 DTs and snipe a natural.
nWong
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada145 Posts
March 23 2011 04:09 GMT
#18
Looks quite safe and can be mistaken for a 3 gate sentry expand quite easily by a Zerg.
Personally, I'd cut one or two sentries for a quicker shrine and later expand in exchange for an increased possibility of damage.
You are now manually breathing.
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
March 23 2011 04:19 GMT
#19
The only problem is that lair may be up by then and then its easier for the zerg to get an overseer. To be honest, a fast early gas before gate if you see its not an all in (close position for example) then going a standard (during c-core) second gas you can still 3 gate sentry and get DTs. You get 2 sentries and the dts pop much earlier than your build.

something to play with if you are interested in
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
W2
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1177 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 04:31:35
March 23 2011 04:30 GMT
#20
I think a standard response by zerg is going to surface, upon scouting an expansion by the protoss (and knowing that the zerg is ahead in expo time and harvestors), should put down a spore at each mineral line. 300 minerals and 2 drones, I think the zerg should still be ahead. Since the only harass options are phoenix and DT at that point in the game.
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