|
Hi Fellow Brotoss’, I’m here to introduce you to a build my fellow clan mates and I have composed for PvZ. The build is centered on taking a little risk to punish greedy Zergs in the current meta-game with the dark templar. This is a combination of the 3 Gate sentry expand and dark templar, a mixture of safety and risk.
![[image loading]](http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/2647/dt1s.jpg)
Dark Templars on creep are even darker
Disclaimer
+ Show Spoiler +I am a 3850 Master Protoss player. The usage of DTs isn't a new strategy in PvZ but the usage of DTs as an opener after a 3Gate is not as common as robo + stargate play. This build ISN'T meant to end the game, it's a good build to transition out of into the mid-game with an emphasis on map control.
MC showed a very similar build in the GSL finals. His build was a bit riskier due to an earlier gas/lower sentry count. My clan and I have been doing this build for weeks.
Honorable mentions for the creation of this build: 40oz.Yohobo, 40oz.yrotciv, 40oz.Naly
40oz Clan Beercraft
Why?
+ Show Spoiler +The 3 Gate sentry expand is a very safe build in most circumstances and is a good opener to help transition into the 200/200 Protoss army. The reasoning behind having many sentries is that with good control and force fields you can prevent a lot of early aggression. The majority of Zergs respond by droning hard and setting up a third once they see a sentry expand, which puts the Protoss in a tough position in the mid-game when the Zerg starts to mass units off of three bases. Sometimes setting up a third may is particularly hard once the Zerg is on three bases and has a good economy. The purpose of this build is to punish a greedy Zerg from droning too hard and getting a third too early. This build will allow you to gain map control for a period of time, allowing you to macro hard, get upgrades, and setup your third. This build also helps against potential Multa play because the Citadel is already there, allowing for HT transition.
DTs have the same effect as banshees do in TvZ, getting drone kills, creation of Overseers/Sporecrawlers, and denying scouting. DTs can be used all game, from early drone sniping to late game tech building snipes.
The Build
+ Show Spoiler +• 9 Pylon • Send the pylon probe to scout • 12 Gateway • 14 Assimilator • 16 Pylon • @100% Gateway Cybernetics Core • @100 minerals Zealot • 19 Second Assimilator • @100% Cybernetics Core 1st Sentry, Warpgate • 22/23 Pylon • 2nd Sentry and 2 gateways when you have minerals • @100% gateways produce 2 sentries depending on resources/supply • Pylons as needed • @100% Warpgate convert gateways • Make Citadel when you have the resources • Nexus, then pylon, then forge right after (cut some probes for a second) • Add one more gateway (4th) then make Dark Shrine, vice versa • 5th sentry • Cannon then Pylon at natural • 3rd gas at natural, transfer probes • 3 DTs asap • 2 more cannons • Robotics Facility ![[image loading]](http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6268/dt3uf.jpg)
Dark Templar Usage
+ Show Spoiler +The purpose of three DTs immediately after the Dark Shrine is done is to send a DT to the main + natural and one more to the started third. You want to only focus on drones with the two DTs, Shift-Clicking as many as you can before the other DT reaches the other base and you’ll want to repeat with the selecting of drones with the other DT. Warning, If you just A-Click the area, the DT will prioritize its attack on the Queen, wasting valuable time and potential damage.
You will want to delay the first moment when your DT attacks, synching the two allows for more damage dealt to the Zerg before he is alerted of DTs. Generally an overseer will be started immediately and drones will be pulled. You can either try to kill as many drones as you can if you’re able to, scout his base for what tech is he on, or hide the DT.
Before Dark Templar Shrine is Complete
+ Show Spoiler +Since expanding with only 4 sentries is a bit risky, you have to take into account of a mass zergling attack or early roach pressure. Good forcefields and camping your ramp until your cannon is up is usually a good idea. This is much like any normal 3 Gate Fast Expansion build, you just have to play slower and safer. Feel free to lay down two cannons after the nexus is complete and make sure your forcefields aren’t wasted.
After Dark Templar Shrine is Complete
+ Show Spoiler +A quick transition into Robotics is a good idea, with a heavy emphasis on chronoboosting your probes. You should be able to scout his base and prepare for whatever he has in time. If you see plenty of roaches running around trying to kill your DTs then make a couple more cannons in front of your natural, get a couple more sentries. Get your fourth gas while your DTs are attacking and literally non-stop make probes.
On certain maps you may want to kill the destructible rocks that will become your third. Since DTs are so gas heavy, you will have an excess of minerals, you have a small window to setup your third with a lot of cannons. You need to pump units from your four gateways and make use of the robotics factory (an observer and immortals is usually sufficient to hold roach play). A quick transition into Colossus is ideal once you have a general good idea of what he’s going.
Sniping the third hatchery of the Zerg is very important. If you can kill it, or even delay it for as long as possible it’s ideal. While he is busy moving around trying to defend his base you can macro up and expand. Don’t be afraid to use the DTs mid/late game, even warping in a couple of zealots with the DT to kill a hatch will benefit you greatly.
DTs allow for great scouts, once the DT harass is over, send a DT out to each base, hold position at close available expansions for the Zerg.
Potential Problems
+ Show Spoiler +Early Roach/Ling Aggression: There’s a timing during the fast expansion where the Zerg strike with 7-10 roaches and many lings right before the shrine is complete. You have to delay with some forcefields and warp in DTs at your natural to defend it. Ideally you’ll want to also send a DT or two immediately at his base to do some damage. 95% of the time, this early Zerg pressure won’t be accompanied with an Overseer and focus the roaches with the DT. To stop this aggression really does come down to your control and forcefields. Ultimately if you can’t hold it off you’ll want to cancel your nexus and go up your ramp and send the DTs out to his main.
Immediate Counteract by the Zerg: This attack comes a bit later, after the DT shrine has been complete. As long as you can snipe the overseer you’re generally fine with DT support. If you suspect him to not bring back his units during the DT harass, make more cannons and prepare for forcefields. You cannot be caught off guard during this period, even one missed forcefield is GG.
Little to No Damage Dealt: Just like any build in the other matchups, if you’ve done little to no damage, you’re behind. If two cloaked banshees are sacrificed and have killed one drone then the Terran is behind. If four hellions do no damage you’re behind.
Tips:
+ Show Spoiler +- Having a proxy pylon is very recommended.
- Chronoboost probes like mad during the DT harass with a healthy number of cannons to ensure you’re safe
- DTs make excellent drop defense
- Normal transitions into Colossi are usually the best
- Blink is available, also earlier +2, +3 upgrades at the Forge
- Find a general good location to place the shrine is ideal on each map
- If the Zerg does scout your shrine you can also not make DTs and just play normal, at a later time sending some DTs may catch him off guard
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
|
**Reserved for answering of questions**
|
Good stuff. I've been trying to utilize some DT harass vs. Zerg lately. My problem is trying to decide a good transition after the DT harass has been effectively answered by my opponent. I think blink stalkers are a great choice to complement the DTs for obvious reasons. Great for sniping overseers and harrassing overlords as well. Thanks for the post.
|
How much damage do the DTs usually do with this build? Do you guys find the zergs aren't prepared for DTs? What would be a good timing to send in an overlord to check for this sort of play? Also, where's a good place tosses might position the shrine?
|
sounds good, will try in my next PvZ!
ty for the guide
|
Would be good if HT were actually good in 1.3
|
I think the Lair finish before your Dark Shine.
|
At what game time do you throw down your nexus?
|
I like this phrase here
"synching the two allows for more damage dealt to the Zerg before he is alerted of DTs."
Really nice thought process that you have put into this 
|
I've lost to similar builds a few times. The reason you'll find it effective is that the DTs come at an unusual time. Now I am defaulting to getting a spore at each base a little while after your expansion, much like terrans like to stick 1 turret at their ramp and 1 at their rally point. Even then they are still pretty annoying, I don't know how much in terms of other tech you have to sacrifice but it forces me to spend something like 1k minerals in static defense before I can move out even when you do 0 direct damage.
|
This is a very nice strategy i have seen it done many times in clan wars and practice games it works really well. It gives you good map control and allows you to macro up. Gj representing Beercraft Shenzu !!
|
On March 22 2011 13:58 Isomer wrote:
How much damage do the DTs usually do with this build? Do you guys find the zergs aren't prepared for DTs? What would be a good timing to send in an overlord to check for this sort of play? Also, where's a good place tosses might position the shrine?
+ Show Spoiler +The damage the dts do varies greatly but usually a minimal of 5-10 drones even if the zerg player is well prepared, as a zerg if u suspect this build u should probably scout at the 5-6 min mark, u cant know where the player will place the shrine
On March 22 2011 14:31 Mitchlew wrote:
Would be good if HT were actually good in 1.3
+ Show Spoiler +not relevant to this build
On March 22 2011 14:34 hitman133 wrote:
I think the Lair finish before your Dark Shine.
+ Show Spoiler +as stated in the original post the dts are not supposed to win the game just provide scouting, mild harassment, delay 3rd and keep map presence as u transition into a unit composition that you are conformable with (stalker, colos, etc...)
On March 22 2011 15:20 dementrio wrote:
I've lost to similar builds a few times. The reason you'll find it effective is that the DTs come at an unusual time. Now I am defaulting to getting a spore at each base a little while after your expansion, much like terrans like to stick 1 turret at their ramp and 1 at their rally point. Even then they are still pretty annoying, I don't know how much in terms of other tech you have to sacrifice but it forces me to spend something like 1k minerals in static defense before I can move out even when you do 0 direct damage.
+ Show Spoiler + ^This is why it can be a great build to have in your pvz arsenal
|
I have seen Yayba using this (or at least a similar) build against Nerchio in a recent tournament effectively. I haven't used it...ever but it really is a nice build to have in your arsenal. What I wanted to add is that in my opinion the "actual" BO isn't that important, there are tons of variations possible. The core idea of going 3 gate expo into DTs allows for a very flexible early game. Also I think on most positions you can very much afford to go 2nd assimilator before zealots. Also I think maybe you could get a stalker 2nd to get rid of a potential scouting OL spotting the early TC. (you should correct your BO into robotics facility instead of robotics bay, confused me a bit)
What I like about this build is that it works perfectly under the current metagame where zergs drone hard when they scout sentry-expo (unless they just go all-in of course). The core threat of sentry-expo is that you suddenly end up in a ~50 vs 35 worker situation, which is perfectly possible even on the highest level of play (just recently saw Socke in such a situation on metalopolis cross...). Getting fast DTs gets "rid" of the greedily pumped drones easily, 4 gate robo off 2 base allows for a decent transition into a third. Since you have a TC already, this build isn't too bad vs muta openings either. Definitely have to play more with DTs vs zerg.
|
On March 22 2011 14:41 aquanda wrote:
At what game time do you throw down your nexus?
+ Show Spoiler +The build is very lenient, one less sentry and a slower fourth gateway enables the citadel to be thrown down as warp-gate is about finished. The timings on when the nexus is started should be exactly the same time when a normal 3Gate expand occurs. It is still suspectible to heavy early pressure, therefore getting a cannon up is necessary.
On March 22 2011 21:37 sleepingdog wrote:
I have seen Yayba using this (or at least a similar) build against Nerchio in a recent tournament effectively. I haven't used it...ever but it really is a nice build to have in your arsenal. What I wanted to add is that in my opinion the "actual" BO isn't that important, there are tons of variations possible. The core idea of going 3 gate expo into DTs allows for a very flexible early game. Also I think on most positions you can very much afford to go 2nd assimilator before zealots. Also I think maybe you could get a stalker 2nd to get rid of a potential scouting OL spotting the early TC. (you should correct your BO into robotics facility instead of robotics bay, confused me a bit)
What I like about this build is that it works perfectly under the current metagame where zergs drone hard when they scout sentry-expo (unless they just go all-in of course). The core threat of sentry-expo is that you suddenly end up in a ~50 vs 35 worker situation, which is perfectly possible even on the highest level of play (just recently saw Socke in such a situation on metalopolis cross...). Getting fast DTs gets "rid" of the greedily pumped drones easily, 4 gate robo off 2 base allows for a decent transition into a third. Since you have a TC already, this build isn't too bad vs muta openings either. Definitely have to play more with DTs vs zerg.
+ Show Spoiler +Indeed, a lot of zergs just drone way too hard once they see the high count of sentries, Even with 2-3 sentries before the warpgate is complete, I feel it's enough to take out overlords suiciding into your base. A general good building placement is necessary to hide your citadel&shrine
DTs can still be a problem into the mid game when they have gotten rid of the initial 2-3. A DT beats a single lone queen pretty easily, and if you can kill the spore you're golden. Don't underestimate two DTs during a big engagement at his main. You have map control for a while and can send them in when he's moving out.
**thanks for the robo edit
|
I just want to mention 2 main things concerning this build.
1) I have been doing a similar build(with a different follow up and slower dts/less cannons) and the real strength in it is the similarity to the 3 gate expand. A LOT of zergs will see the high sentry count and simply drone up freely knowing there will only be a little pressure early game. This also cause zergs to get a later lair, focusing more on economy macro and map control. Very often the first dts can get 10+ drones and will force overseers, draining a lot of gas. Most zergs are unprepared solely because of how common 3 gate expand is in the PvZ metagame.
2) If the dt shrine is scouted or harass ineffective, I just want to point out how effective archons are in small battles at this point in the game. ESPECIALLY with a quick +2 and 4 gas income, archons and zealots can be extremely strong against a zerg who skimps too much on army. Archon/chargelot is a fantastic combination against muta/ling play and with good upgrades it can beat even heavy roach play with robo support.
|
Looking forward to trying this out in PvZ as I've been looking for something new to do.
|
Definitely a good build, been testing it. Also not a bad idea to just mass up like 4 DTs and snipe a natural.
|
Looks quite safe and can be mistaken for a 3 gate sentry expand quite easily by a Zerg.
Personally, I'd cut one or two sentries for a quicker shrine and later expand in exchange for an increased possibility of damage.
|
Canada13389 Posts
The only problem is that lair may be up by then and then its easier for the zerg to get an overseer. To be honest, a fast early gas before gate if you see its not an all in (close position for example) then going a standard (during c-core) second gas you can still 3 gate sentry and get DTs. You get 2 sentries and the dts pop much earlier than your build.
something to play with if you are interested in
|
I think a standard response by zerg is going to surface, upon scouting an expansion by the protoss (and knowing that the zerg is ahead in expo time and harvestors), should put down a spore at each mineral line. 300 minerals and 2 drones, I think the zerg should still be ahead. Since the only harass options are phoenix and DT at that point in the game.
|
On March 22 2011 21:58 shenzu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 14:41 aquanda wrote:
At what game time do you throw down your nexus? + Show Spoiler +The build is very lenient, one less sentry and a slower fourth gateway enables the citadel to be thrown down as warp-gate is about finished. The timings on when the nexus is started should be exactly the same time when a normal 3Gate expand occurs. It is still suspectible to heavy early pressure, therefore getting a cannon up is necessary.
I just want to know an exact game time that your nexus is started assuming zerg doesn't make you build extra units to defend.
|
This build order gets DTs out waaaaay too late, it's better to make DTs then expand since while the shrine is building you have enough to place the nexus and still be able to make 3 DT if you don't spend your gas. You are basically getting DTs when their window has long since passed.
|
United Kingdom36161 Posts
I semi-agree with tehemperorer.
If you're still reading, shenzu (or anyone) - do you think it's viable to swap the 3rd gateway and Twilight Council round? This would allow you to get the DTs out a little quicker.
So
2nd gate + TC
3rd gate
Nexus
Forge
Cannon + 4th Gate.
Pros? Cons?
|
On March 30 2011 01:39 marvellosity wrote:
I semi-agree with tehemperorer.
If you're still reading, shenzu (or anyone) - do you think it's viable to swap the 3rd gateway and Twilight Council round? This would allow you to get the DTs out a little quicker.
So
2nd gate + TC
3rd gate
Nexus
Forge
Cannon + 4th Gate.
Pros? Cons?
This will give away your quick tech. The strength of this build is in its similarity to the standard 3 gate expand, as I actually stated earlier. Going 2 gateways and then twilight will give you a smaller sentry count early and it has a higher chance of being scouted. The DTs don't need to be quick, they just need to be present. It isn't a DT all in rush.
|
Looks like a 3 gate sentry expand, but is not. Really nice build. It'll be very useful in a Bo3.
|
Ok let me help you out.
If you want a DT expand build, it is better to get DTs and have enough to place the Nexus rather than place the Nexus and then get DTs. If you watch this DT Expand guide that I made, it will be quite clear the advantages of the build over a DT transition.
http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/282571439
A DT transition doesn't make sense in PvZ really. Dts as late as you suggest come way after lair is complete, and it only takes ~17 seconds to morph an overseer, which is too short a time for the DTs to be effective. Since the DTs run speed is identical to workers, you can't chase them when they run, and if you do, that 17 second window is gone before you know it and now you have invested money in basically nothing. Also, it takes 2 DTs 30 seconds to snipe a hatchery, and it takes 3 DTs 20 seconds to snipe a hatchery. Every transfuse grants a bonus 5 seconds to this time so it is very unlikely that even if you focused the hatch that you would do any damage to the Zerg economy.
I have tried to pioneer a blink stalker/archon PvZ style that so far is doing pretty well, especially against muta/ling and ling/bling droppers, but it makes winning more of a struggle than it has to be because you never actually force the Zerg to react until later in the game, when blink finishes. Therefore, I moved DTs up in the build order and get only 3 to punish fast expands or non-detection equipped Zergs. Since common Zerg styles rely on hatch units/static D to defend, they are typically unprepared and are forced to all-in, which is impossible against a good walloff with 3 gates. Watch that link, here's the build order:
10 pylon
10 gate
12 gas
15 core
17 gas
17 pylon
18 warp gate
20/20 stalker
cb 3 probes (you need your gas to be 150 before you start your TC because of gas income timings)
drive out scouts, place TC, get Zeal
build probes and a gate, then place DShrine. Place a 3rd gateway after the shrine is built but not longer than 25 seconds into the shrine build time (65 gate build time plus 10 second warpgate xform). Go and place forward pylon, if you can't, make sure you have a pylon that can warp on the low ground out of your base. You should be warping in DTs at 6:35-6:40, send 2 at the main and 1 at the nat since the main typically has more drones and will be the hatchery that upgrades to lair. Focus on drones, once they run snipe the hatchery. If you get there before they start their lair, you win because lair build time is 80 and 1 DT can kill a hatch in 60. You then place your Nexus and don't spend minerals after the 3 DTs are in play. If there is no all-in or the Zerg is handling the DT harass, don't lose them, just back off and deny the third. Proceed to only get stalkers, upgrade blink, and when you have a sizeable force, get a robo for obs and start taking away the creep. You need to macro, this build is for macro, it is not for you to all in like some n00b because you will learn nothing and I will have failed in using DT for something other than cheese.
|
I like this, but at the same time it feels a little bit risky depending on when the zerg decides to sac an ovie. I've used this several times with mixed results the worst one being the zerg having an overseer by the time my DTs arrived and got shut down. So, in that regard I feel that it's a little risky, but overall a good build to have in your arsenal for a bo3 bo5 etc.
One thing that could assist in making this a little more safe is maybe proxying the dark shrine. The twilight council could say blink, if not, that could also be proxied at your 3rd or something.
Just a thought.
|
I've been doing this build for a few months, I don't really feel too great about you trying to coin it :|
It's a very solid build if you can hide your tech though.
|
On April 06 2011 12:29 CaptainHaz wrote:
I like this, but at the same time it feels a little bit risky depending on when the zerg decides to sac an ovie. I've used this several times with mixed results the worst one being the zerg having an overseer by the time my DTs arrived and got shut down. So, in that regard I feel that it's a little risky, but overall a good build to have in your arsenal for a bo3 bo5 etc.
One thing that could assist in making this a little more safe is maybe proxying the dark shrine. The twilight council could say blink, if not, that could also be proxied at your 3rd or something.
Just a thought.
Shouldn't have an overseer before 6:45, that's super early (please correct if I'm wrong). A sac overlord comes typically from the same direction depending on map, and you are usually building your shrine behind mineral line and walling off with zeal. The stalker patrols where the sac OL usually comes from.
|
I wonder, if you put dt on hold position in mineral line, wouldn't attack nearby enemy unit if queen is not inside of mineral line ?
|
ARG WHY DID YOU HAVE TO POST THIS?
I've been using almost this identical build since the patch and been having so much success with it! I haven't lost to a zerg in like, three weeks.
|
Very nice to fake your opponent out. Zergs see so much 3gate into stargate or 3gate into robo & colossus that it takes them off guard.
Recently faced FXOtgun and did this (made 3 more sentries so the DT shrine was late, sadface) and enjoyed a nice 10 probe advantage through the midgame and excellent map awareness. He went on to recover the deficit by a burrowed roach attack that sniped my robobay and very poor army positioning on the big engagement, not to mention poor macro on my part. I give this lots of props for how much it resembles other 3gate expand builds where you can be on top of scouting deny and zerg is left in the dark.
|
Hi there
I thought this build might be interesting and watched some of those replays to see the timings.
What i have seen in both replays:
The DT tech is easy to scout, since you do get both gas early on but got only 4 sentries and no stalkers ( which is 6 sentries and 2 stalkers without dt tech ). Any good zerg player should see that and react by getting some spores ( the "missing" 300 gas means either DT or Air ).
Once its scouted, there is enough time to react.
The only question remaining is: is it some kind of all in ? And i got to say YES it is.
on the 13 minutes mark where a typical 3 gate expand got 1/2 upgrades and about 140 supply ( first colossus out allready) you are at 100 supply with 0/1 upgrades and no air /coloss/HT tech.
But after all there is one thing about that build making it really bad: Why do you "3gate expand" ? The point of 3 Gate expand is to expand fast and still got enough units to attack a zerg who is droning up too hard. This build prevents you from attacking a zerg early on, meaning even if the zerg is droning too hard, he will outmacro you at about 6 minutes while he will have all the money he needs to get overseers in time. Once your Dt's are killed without doing any damage you can quit the game right there.
So after all ..... once the zerg has some kind of skill level you will be slaughtered without any chance of getting back into the game.
Some numbers:
@ 7 minutes
3 gate expand
~56 supply 6 sentries 2 zealots 2 stalkers, 36 probes
your build:
~38 supply 4 sentries 2 zealot, 26 probes
@ 13 minutes
3 gate expand:
~140 supply 1 colossus out 2nd 3rd half way done
1/2 upgrades (1/3 just started)
your build:
~100 supply , no air /ht tech coloss tech just started
0/1 upgrades ( 1/1 almost done )
|
I used to do this like 3-4months back all the time against Zerg. Still doing it sometimes.
DTs are little risky since if they manage do to zero damage you are behind so it isn't most solid/stable opening for PvZ, but definitely good in BoX series to suprise opponent
|
On April 06 2011 17:31 JustAGame wrote:
Hi there
I thought this build might be interesting and watched some of those replays to see the timings.
What i have seen in both replays:
The DT tech is easy to scout, since you do get both gas early on but got only 4 sentries and no stalkers ( which is 6 sentries and 2 stalkers without dt tech ). Any good zerg player should see that and react by getting some spores ( the "missing" 300 gas means either DT or Air ).
Once its scouted, there is enough time to react.
The only question remaining is: is it some kind of all in ? And i got to say YES it is.
on the 13 minutes mark where a typical 3 gate expand got 2-1 upgrades and about 140 supply ( first colossus out allready) you are at 100 supply with 1-0 upgrades and no air /coloss/HT tech.
But after all there is one thing about that build making it really bad: Why do you "3gate expand" ? The point of 3 Gate expand is to expand fast and still got enough units to attack a zerg who is droning up too hard. This build prevents you from attacking a zerg early on, meaning even if the zerg is droning too hard, he will outmacro you at about 6 minutes while he will have all the money he needs to get overseers in time. Once your Dt's are killed without doing any damage you can quit the game right there.
So after all ..... once the zerg has some kind of skill level you will be slaughtered without any chance of getting back into the game.
Some numbers:
@ 7 minutes
3 gate expand
~56 supply 6 sentries 2 zealots 2 stalkers, 36 probes
your build:
~38 supply 4 sentries 2 zealot, 26 probes
@ 13 minutes
3 gate expand:
~140 supply 1 colossus out 2nd 3rd half way done
2-1 upgrades (3-1 just started)
your build:
~100 supply , no air /ht tech coloss tech just started
1-0 upgrades ( 1-1 almost done )
I want to just state that this is an opener and not the go to build every single game. Like mentioned by a lot of members already this opener would be great in a b03 match.
It's true that one can just see the less sentry+stalker count at the front (DTs or Voids) but a good zerg should always believe the Protoss might be hiding units in his base *cough cancel nexus into 4 gate*.
For everyone who is asking about how easily it's scouted/defended think about the current metagame. Scouting is extremely hard for Zerg, good sense of where overlords pop out of is key. Early gas at 19 DOES NOT MEAN DTs and a fool would assume such a thing. Right as the Zerg sees the nexus the zerg is geared towards droning up extremely hard (from 33 drones to 49) or getting an extremely fast third. It's true that in my games if the Zerg was prepared for DTs they would have been greatly ahead but that can also be said for Phoenixes/Voids/Banshees/Hellions. After the DT harass you'll notice that I pull ahead of the Zerg by CBing probes and gaining map control. Denying the third is an even greater victory.
Overseers aren't cheap, and so are static spore/spine crawlers to defend a mineral line. Even then the optimal defense is at least two overseers and a spore which is a big investment.
|
Really well written. I like your emphasis on how to use the DTs, what kind of mind set you need to have while using them, and even what to do if the shrine gets scouted. One thing you didn't touch on was forcing Overseers, and Overseer awareness though.
Knowing where your opponents Overseer is has untold benefits when using DTs. Knowing about how long it will take for detection to show up lets you really stretch your invisible killers to their max. Try to keep the Overseers in the back of your head, where did you last seem them? Were they with the army? These two things can help you greatly with my next point...
One thing I wanted to talk about was Warp Prism use with DTs after you take your third. I use DTs a lot in PvZ and I find that a single Warp Prism flying around dropping single DTs where you need them can be hyper, even uber, effective. The places where I usually drops DTs are :
- Tech buildings without detection nearby
- Mineral line when Overseer is far away
- Army where Overseer is far away.
The reasoning behind my third point is as follows, basically I find that one unexplored aspect of the DT is softening up an army. Hydras for instance get raped by DTs, and are about as expensive (approximately don't flame me for this statement) so killing off a few hydras with a DT is pretty cost efficient. It also helps stall a potential death push or drop from the Zerg even longer.
Next time you use this build, once you hold and take a third, get a Warp Prism and try to do some harass all over the map. If you are super cool like me you will skip Collosus and get Prism speed first and control the game with DTs everywhere while you take the map Zerg style. Nothing makes me happier than map-owning a Zerg :D
|
I dont think this is viable. First of all its super easy to scout(overlord or overseer flying over your base), With that many sentries you get DT's at 9-10mins which means zerg has already droned to 55 drones and started building roaches. You just cant defend roaches+overseer just with the units you have. And speaking of more commonly used zergling roach allin which is at your natural at 8min which completely destroys this build.
Why DT's worked in MC game is because gas before gate and july didnt scout that, he just saw std 2 sentries and zealot at the ramp. He could expand very fast because map was very large, july went very late lair so no roach speed and no overseer with speedupgrade etc.
|
Im a zerg player, so I would like to know your opinion on countering this build with banelings
so if zerg goes for banes instead of roaches, i think he might be able to bust you, because your sentry count will be a little lower then usual, and dts can be killed without vision of them.
|
On April 06 2011 22:27 Big J wrote:Im a zerg player, so I would like to know your opinion on countering this build with banelings so if zerg goes for banes instead of roaches, i think he might be able to bust you, because your sentry count will be a little lower then usual, and dts can be killed without vision of them.
Depends on the map. keep in mind you can get archons from dts, which are quite beefy.
|
On April 06 2011 22:25 mazqo wrote:
I dont think this is viable. First of all its super easy to scout(overlord or overseer flying over your base), With that many sentries you get DT's at 9-10mins which means zerg has already droned to 55 drones and started building roaches. You just cant defend roaches+overseer just with the units you have. And speaking of more commonly used zergling roach allin which is at your natural at 8min which completely destroys this build.
Why DT's worked in MC game is because gas before gate and july didnt scout that, he just saw std 2 sentries and zealot at the ramp. He could expand very fast because map was very large, july went very late lair so no roach speed and no overseer with speedupgrade etc.
Try the build out, a couple times should be sufficient. The problem with a normal 3 gate expand is that the Zerg can immediately get a third, get those 55 drones easily, and pump those roaches in the mid game. How does playing safe prevent that scenario?
With DTs he'll have to pull back his units to defend or lose the game automatically, during this time throw down plenty of cannons (after scouting how many roaches he has).
Banelings is a possibility, like I mentioned in the guide, you need perfect forcefields with those few sentries. If he went fast banelings than he won't likely be on lair and if you get a couple DTs out you'll win the game right there.
|
Banelings is a possibility, like I mentioned in the guide, you need perfect forcefields with those few sentries. If he went fast banelings than he won't likely be on lair and if you get a couple DTs out you'll win the game right there.
na, thats the thing, banelings do insane dmg to dts (they are light) and you dont need to see them, to kill them. Just manually explode 3banelings close to a dt, and your fine, so this strat has a defensive use too, if you're good
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://img33.imageshack.us/i/dt1s.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://img841.imageshack.us/i/dt3uf.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197332.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197333.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197334.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197335.jpg)
