EPTI don't think I've faced the spanishiwa opening that much, since many people go fast roach to counter mass zealot or something like it, but the few times I did face it I think I saw around 3-4-5 spines at their natural which kinda makes me satisfied that I've hampered their economy a little bit atleast.
Pepe's PvZ 2 Gate Pressure Expand - Page 2
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BlueberryNinja
Sweden38 Posts
I don't think I've faced the spanishiwa opening that much, since many people go fast roach to counter mass zealot or something like it, but the few times I did face it I think I saw around 3-4-5 spines at their natural which kinda makes me satisfied that I've hampered their economy a little bit atleast. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On May 14 2011 04:34 GoSerenity wrote: Well against a hatch first I usally rally my zealots to their expo, which is a pretty aggressive move, to make them more scared. I don't think I've faced the spanishiwa opening that much, since many people go fast roach to counter mass zealot or something like it, but the few times I did face it I think I saw around 3-4-5 spines at their natural which kinda makes me satisfied that I've hampered their economy a little bit atleast. 3-5 spines = 3 - 5 drones + 450 - 750 minerals I'd say you are very ahead, not just a little.  | ||
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BlACKTrA
Germany187 Posts
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
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SOB_Maj_Brian
United States522 Posts
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
edit: nvm got it to work... lol crap what i am saying XD this is so awesome.. i'm going to start most of my games now typing "Pepe's 2 gate" in chat... i don't think this build is limited to PvZ lol | ||
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gastro54
23 Posts
Additionally, early ling bling play hard counters this. The best you can hope for is to trick the zerg into thinking you're doing some DT opening and force spores. | ||
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SC2TheDroid
United States54 Posts
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BlueberryNinja
Sweden38 Posts
On May 14 2011 05:51 gastro54 wrote: This opening simply does not work if the zerg opens gas pool and knows what hes doing. You will lose all your units to slings if you attack. If you don't attack, zerg can build a flock of lings to keep you defensive/delay your expo, drone to 30ish and roach ling all in. With the lack of sentry energy accumulation, you will get rolled. Additionally, early ling bling play hard counters this. The best you can hope for is to trick the zerg into thinking you're doing some DT opening and force spores. About losing your units to speedlings; the chance to lose your units increases on some maps. Which is why this build isn't recommended by the author on some medium-large cross position maps for example. It's kinda all about your aggressiveness with your units. If you walk up and start to hit the hatchery/queen/spine you will most likely lose your units because the zerg has full vision of your units and you give him time to think and position himself. However, it's all about being cautious and remember that threathening the zerg is enough of a victory. A good example of a perfect execution with your threathening is walking towards the zergs base, kill the ling(s) at the watchtower(s), move up towards his base and then retreat. Few zergs actually run after you with the units they made. But if they do, just try to position yourself near a wall or something with stalkers on the inside of the half-circle and you'll probably atleast kill around 15-20 lings before you go down. About the zerg delaying your expansion this usally does not happen if you are fast enough to get 1-2 cannons up. I usally have 2 cannons finished when my units return to my base. And 2 cannons with good placement does amazing damage against just lings. Finally about the roach ling allin. The current standard 3 gate sentry expand gives the impression that sentries is the last hope of protossmanity. Therefore I understand your worry about sentry energy accumulation being a problem. But I assure you that around 6-10 gateway units, 2 wellplaced cannons, 1-2 +1 attack immortals and good unit placement is enough to surivive these kind of roach+ling allins. This build is aswell not disregarding sentries in any way, sentries are awesome units and gives your much control over fights. These will help you survive against ling+bling attacks. And aswell immortals, just like archons, are awesome tanks against banelings. Pepe did mention to me that he takes his gas earlier to get more sentries. He did aswell say that hes planning to update the thread when he finds more time to play. I'd aswell like to add that I am not the author, I am mainly speaking from my own experiences, which may be different than the authors. | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
Finally about the roach ling allin. The current standard 3 gate sentry expand gives the impression that sentries is the last hope of protossmanity. Therefore I understand your worry about sentry energy accumulation being a problem. But I assure you that around 6-10 gateway units, 2 wellplaced cannons, 1-2 +1 attack immortals and good unit placement is enough to surivive these kind of roach+ling allins. This build is aswell not disregarding sentries in any way, sentries are awesome units and gives your much control over fights. These will help you survive against ling+bling attacks. And aswell immortals, just like archons, are awesome tanks against banelings. You shouldn't have immortals against an roach all in. You will have ~8 units (only 1 or 2 sentries with this build) and 2/3 cannons when Zergs can push with ~6-8 roaches with ~20 speedlings and more streaming in if Zerg is infact all-inning. If the Zerg isn't doing a complete all in, he will kill you army and kill you later because he was able to trade armies efficiently while he can pump rounds of drones and grab a free 3rd knowing aggression isn't on its way. I just don't see Protoss being able to hold off roach all ins ESPECIALLY if they lose any of their initial units they are poking and prodding with. | ||
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BlueberryNinja
Sweden38 Posts
On May 14 2011 08:42 zJayy962 wrote: You shouldn't have immortals against an roach all in. You will have ~8 units (only 1 or 2 sentries with this build) and 2/3 cannons when Zergs can push with ~6-8 roaches with ~20 speedlings and more streaming in if Zerg is infact all-inning. If the Zerg isn't doing a complete all in, he will kill you army and kill you later because he was able to trade armies efficiently while he can pump rounds of drones and grab a free 3rd knowing aggression isn't on its way. I just don't see Protoss being able to hold off roach all ins ESPECIALLY if they lose any of their initial units they are poking and prodding with. I actually don't really feel like theorycrafting with you, since it seems like you havn't actually seen the build in action. I looked for some replays of my recent PvZ games but I couldn't find any good ones to upload for you so I have to reference you to the authors pre-patch replays on how to survive. Then again, roach ling allins didn't really change with the patch so I'm sure you'll be pleased with what you see. The original post covers much questions if you look closely. I'll also quote the author when he responded to a similar post by DarKFoRcE: As mentioned you are not gonna die to Roach Ling... you have your +1 atk what makes your Zealots rape their Lings, you got canons with great range and Stalker to kite Roaches afterwards. You continue with building Immortals. You should at least watch one of those replays and tell me what that guys did hardly wrong when trying to kill me. | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
NASL SPOILER Week 4 + Show Spoiler + oGsMC vs Machine on Crossfire where you slowly get Warp Gates and set up a proxy Pylon without overcommitment of the Zealots. | ||
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BlueberryNinja
Sweden38 Posts
On May 14 2011 09:22 iTzAnglory wrote: Does this transition well into a Stalker heavy 4 gate? As long as you do not lose too much Zealots, pressuring the Zerg nonstop will sometimes make them forget to mine gas while holding off the 2 gate. It could be similiar to NASL SPOILER Week 4 + Show Spoiler + oGsMC vs Machine on Crossfire where you slowly get Warp Gates and set up a proxy Pylon without overcommitment of the Zealots. The build is designed to be a pressure expand, so you'll have to modify it pretty heavily if you wish to get enough gas to go stalker heavy early. I'm unsure if you're asking if you can go 2 gate pressure into 4 gate stalker 1 base all-in or something else. If it's the all-in you're thinking about I suggest that you'd; go double gas, not add the forge, stop probe production at around 20, add 2-3 gateways after you've made all your initial units, chronoboost on warpgate abit However I wouldn't recommend relying on that the zerg forgets to mine gas. | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
On May 14 2011 09:37 GoSerenity wrote: The build is designed to be a pressure expand, so you'll have to modify it pretty heavily if you wish to get enough gas to go stalker heavy early. Lol aren't all builds vs Z pressure expand? but you're right just threatening zerg and making him morph units instead of drones early on is a win. So the combination is 4 zealots + stalkers... the tricky part is when to put down a cancellable pylon to block ling run by... maybe have the nearest probe on minerals hotkeyed to make quick pylon it's not a changeable mixture of early unit composition right?... i think we should hear more from the author... | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
Don't need immortals vs roaches, add a few cannons to survive early and be happy because chargelot/archon will kill them real easy in a few minutes. Just a style thing to go along with the archon fad, and I personally have always liked gateway units and hated colossus. | ||
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BlueberryNinja
Sweden38 Posts
On May 14 2011 11:36 IzieBoy wrote: So the combination is 4 zealots + stalkers... the tricky part is when to put down a cancellable pylon to block ling run by... maybe have the nearest probe on minerals hotkeyed to make quick pylon it's not a changeable mixture of early unit composition right?... i think we should hear more from the author... The ling runbys are extremely popular so I have a probe standing in the building choke near my ramp, and if I see lings I insta put down a pylon. Of course you can change the mixture of units you move out with, but I wouldn't recommend it. Because if you make let's say 1 zealot and 5-6 stalkers and the opponent goes 20 lings the zerg will know that he can kill them. Aswell as getting more stalkers would either require you go get an earlier core, or wait with the push. Doing gets you less zealots and costs more. The zealots are also good when the eventual defending comes since with +1 attack they 2 shot lings. Getting more gas earlier will also delay the build and expansion since you'll be missing out on mineral income. | ||
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BBC.807
Norway68 Posts
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BlueberryNinja
Sweden38 Posts
On May 14 2011 16:02 Keilah wrote: How about delay robo a bit to add gasses sooner and go for HT/archon/zealot. Could even delay the robo by a LOT and get a couple sentries + hallucinate instead of observers, but I personally prefer obs. Oh and, get the TC in time for +2 weapons instead of +1 armor. Don't need immortals vs roaches, add a few cannons to survive early and be happy because chargelot/archon will kill them real easy in a few minutes. Just a style thing to go along with the archon fad, and I personally have always liked gateway units and hated colossus. It's theoretically possible I guess. It's alot of teching on 2 base however. But I would never suggest to skip/delay robo against roaches. Immortals are extremely cost effective against roaches. Archons on 2 base suck against roaches because you'll max get 1-3 before you get attacked by an allin. Chargelots are also kiteable and not cost effective against roaches. Atleast against good players because they'll kite you out of cannon range and kill your buildings/units. And just adding a couple of more cannons doesn't really solve the issue because you've gotta know what the zerg is doing because of the cannon buildtime and it not being a waste of minerals. Many zergs I face actually take an extremely early third/+ fourth to compensate for them being "abused". HOWEVER, some kind of variant of what you're suggesting I could actually see working extremely well vs the spanishiwa ling+bling+infestor play. Especially if you could hit some kind of timing when the spanishiwa build is still "building up" and expanding. An issue could still be though that it's alot of tech on 2 base, so it's gotta be allinish or get the economy of a third to back it up into the midgame. The ultimate question though is, how do you know which tech path to go for if you don't have a robo/no early enough hallucination. Because you gotta know pretty early when to go for more gas, which buildings to build, if the zerg is gonna attack you etc. | ||
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BlueberryNinja
Sweden38 Posts
On May 14 2011 20:43 BBC.807 wrote: Is this [s]PePe from the olden days? I have no idea about the authors background, I just found this build some time ago and used it ^^ EDIT: I understand that many may wonder why I'm the one "taking charge" and explaining/discussing about this build. From my knowledge (I talked to the author some time ago) PePe isn't active on teamliquid.net at this moment due to RL. And I've been doing this build in pretty much every PvZ for the past 2-3 weeks and I feel that the only information people can get is from me and the original post. I do not know of any other protoss players that utilizes this build. I think it offers an interesting approach to PvZ which shouldn't be disregarded or forgotten in the depths of the strategy forum | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
And as Pwadoc is saying, I would love to see how it works against spanishiwa's style as well. It seems that this will be valnurable to speedlings due to the lack of forcefield. EDIT: Also, what about 15 gas 14 pool or 14/14 builds? Aren't they the most common styles that zerg does? In most of the pro replays that I watch, witht he exception of IdrA, they all open 15g/14p against toss and this would not work. It also will depend on how fast you can scout and positions like you said. | ||
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