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Pepe's PvZ 2 Gate Pressure Expand

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Pepe-
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany87 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 16:08:16
March 21 2011 07:33 GMT
#1
Noticed there's no [G] there, feel free to edit the title.


Pepe's PvZ 2 Gate Pressure Expand


[image loading]
Dont they look evil?


Introduction
Hey guys, I'm Pepe, currently at >3700 points in master league at EU. I would like to share an opening I practised for a few weeks now with you. Opening 2Gate was pretty common against Zerg until Blizzard increased the Zealot buildtime by 5 seconds. I never saw it again so far. Some day, inspired by a 2Gate before Core 3 Zealot 2 Stalker build in PvP, I decided to try something similar in PvZ.

General idea
Zerg always have to decide if they either want to get units or workers, especially in the early game they want to get as many drones as possible. This build actually tries to pressure the Zerg permanently to force as many units as possible until you secured your 3rd base and can finally get the scary deathball. You want to get the maximum of units out of a minimum of production buildings. This is an economic opening, allin-ing is obviously no good idea after forcing units.
Being even or ahead in workers and bases is a reachable goal.

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
@9 - Pylon (scout)
@14 - Gate
@16 - Gate
@17 - Pylon
@19 - Zealot
@21 - Gas (you better dont forget to put guys in it)
@22 - Pylon
@23 - Zealot
@26 - Zealot
@28 - Core
@28 - Zealot
@33 - Zealot
@33 - Pylon

@34 - 2 Stalker(chronoboost both)
@38 - Warpgate(no chronoboost on it)
@38 - Forge
@39 - Pylon (its a risk and an advantage to put this one down the ramp)
@39 - Zealot
(continue Zealot/Stalker production like you want, you maybe want to get a 3rd Stalker when the first 2 finished, but its better to get a Zealot there to be able to instantly start +1 atk when your Forge finishes)

@ Forge finishing - instantly start +1 atk (you better dont forget it, chronoboost it)
@ 46-49 - Nexus
@ 150-300 Minerals - put down 2 well-placed canons at your natural
@ 200/100 - Robotics and 2nd and 3rd Gas
@ +1 atk finishing - get +1 def

When you feel the time has come better place a 3rd and 4th Gate instead of instantly tech more. You dont need your 4th Gas directly,you can choose on your own.


Chronoboost
+ Show Spoiler +
You use your first 4 Chronoboosts on your Nexus when they are available,first of course at 11.
The next 2 are for your Stalkers, next are all for your +1 atk. You will maybe want to also put down your 5th Chronoboost on your Nexus and you will look like an idiot when your core finishes and you are > 65 Energy, but I figured out its much better to save one more for your +1 atk.


Your scouting Probe
+ Show Spoiler +
Its nothing spectacular, you scout if there is an early pool and of course you try to delay the Hatch. But you should not forget to get back in Zerg's base when your first Zealot is half done to take a look on how much Gas the Zerg took, if Speed started and if there's any Roach Warren / Baneling Nest. Later on you better get sure there really is a Hatch


Your first agression
+ Show Spoiler +
If Zerg was able to put down a Hatch first you can rally your Gates directly to your opponent's Natural but you better use your scouting Probe to check how many Lings pop out. If there are 4 or more you better let your first Zealot run back to the 2nd Zealot.

If your opponent plays pool first, you walk to him with 5 Zealots and 2 Stalkers soon done. You actually dont need to kill a single unit, everything you want is that your opponent builds units. In a perfect game you would retreat not losing a single unit. Dont forget to fight Speedlings only when your units are clumped together and next to a wall to not get surrounded completly.
When leaving your base place a Probe at your Choke to warp in a Pylon if the Zerg wants to run Lings in your base.


[image loading]
Everyone's gonna die. Too bad they dont fight at the wall.



Zerg responses when seeing 2 Gates
+ Show Spoiler +

  • Some Zerg players just throw down a Roach Warren and 1 Base attack you with Ling/Roach. I actually never had problems holding it because the Stalkers are always in time.
  • Most common reaction is to just build the expo and defend with a few Roaches. Since there isnt much creep you can annoy him a bit with your Stalkers, force a few more Lings and retreat.
    Later, when your Robo finishes, you should get 1-2 Immortals when you know there are Roaches instead of an Observer.
  • Sometimes you face mass Speedlings, clump your units, try to retreat along Walls. If you lose your units, stay a bit more in your base and delay the Nexus until you feel able to move out.
  • Seldomly Zerg will use a few Banelings to their Speedlings, try to kill them with your Stalkers and spread out your Zealots. You will lose them all :D but I hadnt much problems throwing down my Nexus when I faced this early Banelings so far.


--------------
Not a response but if you scout an early Pool you should obviously improvise. 11 Pool before Overlord ( thats the one finishing when you start your 2nd Gate) is the first one you want to chronoboost your first Zealot.


More pressure
+ Show Spoiler +
From now on you have to decide on your own if you can pressure a bit or go back, it depends heavily on the game. Just clearing up the Watchtower can also make the Zerg build a few units.
Obviously there's a good timing when +1 atk finishes but it's really risky. Some Zerg's have nearly no units at that time, some didnt do anything else than building units. Normally Roaches won't have their Speedupgrade but its not impossible. You better hope they havent :D When you are finding many Roaches + Speedlings try to retreat. Kill the Lings when they come to near and run away from the Roaches.

[image loading]
You better regret going this far with your +1 atk timed push, at least you are ahead in workers



Zerg's 2 base Allins
+ Show Spoiler +
After playing this build really often I'm pretty sure you are safe to those allins without screwing anything up so far. Especially when you forced a ton of units without losing any at your first agression you can expect some 2 base Allin (mostly 20-24 drones).

[image loading]
Even with reinforcements you are not gonna lose a single probe


Those Allins are mostly coming between 8:10 and 8:40 but if you have done everything corretly your 2 Canons should be up at 8:10 and when chronoboosted like I told you +1 atk should be finishing at ~8:15.

I faced it only 2 times so far, but Hydra / Speedling on 2 base(~30 worker) can be pretty scary. If you are going for Colossi the first could be half done. I'm not sure if you can hold it. If you have a Twilight Council up(explained later), you should go for mass Chargelots. They will rape Hydras.

-----------------------
It's not an Allin but some Zerg are playing Mutas after getting their 3rd. If you arent seeing Roaches or only a few, you better get 1-2 canons in your main and Blink as early as possible. But I cant remember losing to Mutas even when I didnt expect it.


Follow-Up's
+ Show Spoiler +
So far I only transitioned into either the classic Colossus / Voidray / Stalker Deathball or otherwise Immortal / High Templar. The advantage of the 2nd one is that you will be really fast at 3-1 and those Immortals destroy Roaches. You will always be ahead in Upgrades even with only 1 Forge. Mostly I start the TC close before +1 def is done.

No matter which of those 2 I chose so far, I started my 3rd base pretty early. Mostly when I got 2-3 Immortals and having the knowledge there's no Allin coming.

That I didnt try anything else doesnt mean there's no other way. Just transition into any Stargate play or just a mass Warpgate 2 basing is of course not impossible.


Preferred Maps
+ Show Spoiler +
Maps should be small - medium sized and the Natural should be open and not far away from the main's choke. That choke should also point into Natural's direction. (You want to be able to get a useful wall to your Expansion but the Zerg shouldnt be able to defend with only 1-2 Spinecrawlers).
So obviously best is atm Xel Naga and Meta (not cross). Also ok are Blizzard's Typhon and Slag Pits. The 3 GSL maps may be too big. Unsure about Crossfire.


Issues
+ Show Spoiler +
  • This build does not forgive mistakes. Forgeting to put guys in gas, forgeting to build a Pylon when you have the Minerals and so on will slow everything down. You are always near being supply blocked at the first minutes. Also slowing things down can make you unsafe against any 2 base Allin. Not throwing down a Pylon when Lings are running in or being macroing while your retreating units getting caught can and mostly will directly cost you the game. Feeling exactly the opposite what the opponent is doing ( pumping units / droning) will obviously cost you the game, too.
    Don't expect great success in your first games trying this.

    [image loading]
    Oh the noes, Pylon displaced. Fortunately that didnt happen with that push half way done


  • Your Sentry count is low because you dont get your Geysirs fast. I actually like the way I told but maybe you like a higher Sentry count. Try to get 2nd or 4th gas earlier.



Responses to forum posts
+ Show Spoiler +
DarKFoRcE
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 21 2011 21:21 DarKFoRcE wrote:[/B
The main problem with the build is that you wont have many sentries do defend against roach ling allins and similar stuff


As mentioned you are not gonna die to Roach Ling... you have your +1 atk what makes your Zealots rape their Lings, you got canons with great range and Stalker to kite Roaches afterwards. You continue with building Immortals. You should at least watch one of those replays and tell me what that guys did hardly wrong when trying to kill me.


Tossup
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 21 2011 21:08 Tossup wrote:
I view the first initial to be kind of bad...

So you've pressured them a bit, and assuming they started ling speed they'll have it somewhere between making your zealots and stalkers. That being said, how do you can you count on a zerg letting you go home without killing off your initial push? Hugging walls can only do so much before they come in with ~20 lings and rape your army.


If Zerg stops droning at ~18 and builds only Speedlings, who cares if he kills the initial push? your Zealots are gonna kill a ton of Lings when standing next to a wall. If he continues pumping Lings I'll just wait till +1, otherwise I got 3-4 more Zealots out and build a canon at the bottom of my ramp.


tentoff
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 22 2011 01:00 tentoff wrote:
May i suggest that you incorporate researching halucination into this build after warp gate research finishes. I find that a halucinated phoenix scout is very valuable, because if you scout a bunch of units, you can turtle up and not risk pushing out, but if you scout an early 3rd base or something, you know that the timing for your attack is perfect.


You're getting your first observer relatively fast, so I actually dont see a point in it.




Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
Replays are numbered. Games are either Laddergames or Customgames with similar skilled opponents.

http://www.file-upload.net/download-3302202/Pepe-s-2-Gate.7z.html

Short descriptions:
#1 Pretty normal Ling / Roach beginning followed by some unexpected Mutas.
#2 Well defended 11 Pool. Went for counter-agression but was way too greedy.
#3 After pumping a ton of units my opponent decided to stop droning and try everything to end the game.
#4 Well defended first push but Zerg just screwing up later on.
#5 Perma losing your units to Speedling / Baneling doesnt always mean losing.
#6 A game couldnt go much better.
#7 Fast Speed Roaches followed by some suiciding on Nexus and basetrading.
#8 Mass Roaches / Baneling Bombs vs Immortals / High Templar.
#9 Pretty standard game, Ling / Roach / Hydra / Broodlord.


Feel free to comment / ask anything after reading the [b]whole guide.

Thanks to Lumbini for helping me practise this

iNfeRnaL *
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
Germany1908 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 09:06:40
March 21 2011 08:16 GMT
#2
this post doesn't have any meaning anymore.
Pepe-
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany87 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 08:19:36
March 21 2011 08:19 GMT
#3
On March 21 2011 17:16 iNfeRnaL wrote:
"Pepe's PvZ 2 Gate Pressure Expand"

@9 - Pylon (scout)
@14 - Gate
@16 - Gate
@17 - Gate

This might confuse some people, as you've listed 3 Gateways in your buildorder. XD


whoops :D the last one should be a Pylon
edited
Tossup
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States208 Posts
March 21 2011 11:13 GMT
#4
I view the first initial to be kind of bad...

So you've pressured them a bit, and assuming they started ling speed they'll have it somewhere between making your zealots and stalkers. That being said, how do you can you count on a zerg letting you go home without killing off your initial push? Hugging walls can only do so much before they come in with ~20 lings and rape your army.
Tossup
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States208 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-13 18:46:54
March 21 2011 12:08 GMT
#5
double post
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 12:13:10
March 21 2011 12:12 GMT
#6
^ That's why you don't have to overcommit. If you see a 14 gas 14 pool, speed won't finish until around 6 minutes? idk, but just go home around 30 seconds early because you already forced lings.

If it's a 15 hatch 14 gas 13 pool or something, you won't have to worry about speed until 8 ish, or even not at all, so you can easily pressure and micro with zealots.

Oh, and 1 zealot could actually beat 4 slow lings with step micro.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
DarKFoRcE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1215 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 12:30:41
March 21 2011 12:21 GMT
#7
On March 21 2011 21:12 iChau wrote:
^ That's why you don't have to overcommit. If you see a 14 gas 14 pool, speed won't finish until around 6 minutes? idk, but just go home around 30 seconds early because you already forced lings.

If it's a 15 hatch 14 gas 13 pool or something, you won't have to worry about speed until 8 ish, or even not at all, so you can easily pressure and micro with zealots.

Oh, and 1 zealot could actually beat 4 slow lings with step micro.


Speed finishes at 5:05- 5:10 usually. The main problem with the build is that you wont have many sentries do defend against roach ling allins and similar stuff
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
March 21 2011 13:15 GMT
#8
I find that any build revolving around stalker pressure or pure zealot, stalker pressure is bad against any early speedling build. Speed finishes before your first stalkers really do damage and thus have to retreat even before that to not risk losing them.
Sure a build like this may force a zerg into making some units instead of droning but they will pick of your attack with minimal losses doing so generally. Afterwards they can prevent your expo for quite some time because you didn't get sentries and they will be ahead.

Early stalker pressure is quite good if they go late gas though. Stalkers will have a short reign of supremacy then as they can kite both lings and roaches then. This scenario only happens when the map is relatively small and they decided to get late gas, which is very uncommon in today's PvZ metagame. Thus i'd only ever do this if you are sure that's the case, otherwise the delayed gas and lack of sentries will cost you alot..
Besides if early stalkers are good I often rather go with a 1 gas 4 gate then with 2 gate pressure. It is harder to scout often and gives a critical mass of stalkers right away which can be used to kite very well.
Strivers
Profile Joined November 2010
United States358 Posts
March 21 2011 14:35 GMT
#9
what advantages does this have over 3 gate sentry expo with the sentries constantly saving energy for mid game?
These little dudes really like the blue stuff..
Pepe-
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany87 Posts
March 21 2011 15:39 GMT
#10
Added some responses in the first post
tentoff
Profile Joined March 2011
United States19 Posts
March 21 2011 16:00 GMT
#11
Nice writeup. I also highly value early pushes and pressure as often as possible and then pulling back in order to force more units and less drones. However, like you mentioned, there is the problem of after the first small push, whether it is safe to push out with a small-mid sized army to pressure again, because if he built a ton of speedlings, he will just demolish your entire army and you will be behind.

May i suggest that you incorporate researching halucination into this build after warp gate research finishes. I find that a halucinated phoenix scout is very valuable, because if you scout a bunch of units, you can turtle up and not risk pushing out, but if you scout an early 3rd base or something, you know that the timing for your attack is perfect.
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
March 21 2011 16:00 GMT
#12
might be viable with hatchfirst?

but it is a pretty gamble build against speedlings
Pepe-
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany87 Posts
March 21 2011 16:12 GMT
#13
Seriously... what tells your opponent that you're not retreating after clearing the watchtower?

If he masses Speedlings he's gambling himself...
zyglrox
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1168 Posts
March 21 2011 19:50 GMT
#14
this might be worth having to combat a zerg opening with no fast gas.
champagne for my real friends, and real pain for my sham friends.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
March 21 2011 19:58 GMT
#15
I do an effectively similar opening if Z takes gas later than 3 min (high masters), but with a pretty different building ordering.

I go gate -> gas -> zealot -> core -> zealot -> stalker for a quick 2z/1s push and reinforce with a 2nd stalker. I get 2 more gates to time up with WG to warp in zealot sentry and immediately push again. I produce 2z, 2s and 1 sentry off my gateway before WG finishes, and then I warp in 2 sentries and a zealot. If nothing dies, I think my initial force is then 3 zealots, 2 stalkers and 2 sentries. I go by feel on whether I attack with that or wait for an additional round or two of warp-ins.

When it goes well, I force Z well out of his comfort zone in terms of droning/zergling production, and I frequenty have a 5-10 worker lead entering the midgame.

I say that my opening is similar to yours because we're attacking at similar timings with similarly sized armies. You attack with 3 zealots slightly faster than I attack with 2 zealots and a stalker. We both almost immediately follow our 3 unit pokes with 7 unit mini-attacks.
eteran
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany83 Posts
May 13 2011 15:31 GMT
#16
I like this build alot. My PvZ always suffered from being too defensive and giving the Zerg the opportunity to drone heavily early on. This build gives me a hand in terms of expansion, upgrade and pressure timing.

I think in the hands of good players, the 3 Gate Sentry Expand is still stronger. But you also have to consider that every Zerg knows that build inside out, hence this one can throw some of them off.

Geiko
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France1939 Posts
May 13 2011 16:04 GMT
#17
This is basicaly Adel's PvP build for PvZ ?

I've also been working on something similar, but in my version I proxy the 2 gates pretty obviously to force the zerg to over-react and massively delay his expansion while cannoning mine.
Intersting build but I think the success you are having is greatly due to Zerg's not knowing how to react to this yet.

I have some concerns about 2 base roach all ins and how you'll be able to deal with them in that time when your expo hasn't paid for itself yet, and your attacks have ceased to be effective. You cover it a little in your thread, but I'm not sure your opponents were doing it as efficiently as they should.

Intersting build, and great OP though
geiko.813 (EU)
TheKRoc
Profile Joined February 2011
United States74 Posts
May 13 2011 16:42 GMT
#18
If you lose your first units, you are so royally fucked. I don't understand the merit in this BO. So much risk, no true economic advantage over three gates, and relatively little true damage?

I don't think you understand how one-base pressure expands are supposed to work vs. Zerg. The fact is, if you go all the way to a competent Zerg's base, your units will likely die. Maybe a better thing to do would be to kill the Zerglings at watchtowers and retreat.

It also seems extremely hard to deny scouting with a 14/16 Gate and a 21 gas; when you put on early pressure denying scouting is almost your first priority, so I think any Zerglings that you mights have forced will be made at the Zerg's leisure.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but this is almost exactly what is see happening (or what should be happening) in the replays.
BlueberryNinja
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden38 Posts
May 13 2011 18:06 GMT
#19
I've been doing this build for some weeks now at mid-high master level.
My conclusions(which may answer some of your questions):

*At first most zergs think that it's an all zealot pressure/allin build and make a roach warren before/slightly after they just expanded.
* Their scouting drone does usally see everything that happens before the forge goes down; which at this point looks like an allin/pressure with zealots and a couple of stalkers. The only thing that suggests otherwise is that you continue making probes(but they're not chronoboosted however so it's not a clear tell).
* The least I get out of this pressure expand is the zerg throwing out an really early roach warren/baneling nest and making 15 lings / 6 roaches for defense.
* It's true that if you lose your first units you have some issues, but if you do, most zergs will 2 base hard push you and if you hold that with cannons + immortal just popping you're atleast even if not ahead for the next minutes.
* When everything goes perfect (you don't lose any of your units and force much from the zerg) they often stay on low tech units with few upgrades while taking an early third to get their economy "back". This makes 2 base 1/1 blinkstalker + sentry+zealot pushes very deadly since they basically rely on mass roaches and/or speedlings/+banelings to keep them alive.

My conclusion about this build is that it's an as good alternative as 3 gate expand or even better depending on your playstyle. It does require some practice to, for example, not get too confident with your units however. It doesn't really put you behind in any way if you play it good, and throws many zergs off their usual heavy macro play. Which gives you some kind of psychological advantage ^__^
pwadoc
Profile Joined August 2010
271 Posts
May 13 2011 18:33 GMT
#20
As a zerg, I feel like the best response to this is to get 10-16 lings, kill the first push and harass the toss front to delay their expansion while I drone. I'd imagine it's much more effective against a hatch first zerg who's reluctant to make more than a pair of lings.

Also, how does it fare against the Spanishawa opening?
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