EPTPepe's PvZ 2 Gate Pressure Expand - Page 3
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Coolguy
68 Posts
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BlueberryNinja
Sweden38 Posts
On May 14 2011 21:58 ODKStevez wrote: The zerg community does not approve of this! However, on a serious note, this is going to be rather difficult to do, especially against roach ling all ins that so many zergs are doing now against protoss. And as Pwadoc is saying, I would love to see how it works against spanishiwa's style as well. It seems that this will be valnurable to speedlings due to the lack of forcefield. EDIT: Also, what about 15 gas 14 pool or 14/14 builds? Aren't they the most common styles that zerg does? In most of the pro replays that I watch, witht he exception of IdrA, they all open 15g/14p against toss and this would not work. It also will depend on how fast you can scout and positions like you said. I actually started doing this build just because of the common roach ling allins that you mentioned. I questioned the way to approach/turtling nature against these allins with 3 gate sentry expand; to hope that you nail every forcefield and rely on 8 sentries to save you and even then may have to cancel/delay the nexus. This build does use sentries and doing otherwise in PvZ can be pretty dangerous. This build doesn't rely on them as much in the earlygame however. I just don't see speedlings being that much of an issue if you play it correctly, of course map dependant etc. But it's all about establishing some kind of sense, or knowledge if you will, on how to not get your initial units killed but still force a response. Most zergs I see throw down a very early roach warren to protect themselves against mass zealots. This may be the reason why I havn't really faced any spanishiwa style zergs, I don't know. | ||
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BlueberryNinja
Sweden38 Posts
On May 14 2011 22:19 Coolguy wrote: I always open similar to this if i spawn close positions. I time my probe so i scout the close position around the time i build my gas. If it's too far, i feel slings are too much of a threat Yeah I guess it's up to you if you feel it's too dangerous. I did however ask PePe shortly after the infestor change patch and all that stuff if the recommended maps had changed, but he notified me that they hadn't. So I'll have to refer to his thinking there. Aswell I'd like to echo that this build is extremely safe against zerg earlygame cheese. I don't think I've lost any game because of early pools or 5-7 roach rush pushes. Some zergs even go 1 base roach push when they see this build early. And as I am aware of that there are a few builds with early pool designed to make the protoss overreact doing this build makes them feel a victory, that they forced 2 early gates instead of gate+core. Which also kinda works in this builds favor. Because when the push comes they'll most likely overproduce when you do infact have an expansion building. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On May 14 2011 20:48 GoSerenity wrote: It's theoretically possible I guess. It's alot of teching on 2 base however. But I would never suggest to skip/delay robo against roaches. Immortals are extremely cost effective against roaches. Archons on 2 base suck against roaches because you'll max get 1-3 before you get attacked by an allin. Chargelots are also kiteable and not cost effective against roaches. Atleast against good players because they'll kite you out of cannon range and kill your buildings/units. And just adding a couple of more cannons doesn't really solve the issue because you've gotta know what the zerg is doing because of the cannon buildtime and it not being a waste of minerals. Many zergs I face actually take an extremely early third/+ fourth to compensate for them being "abused". HOWEVER, some kind of variant of what you're suggesting I could actually see working extremely well vs the spanishiwa ling+bling+infestor play. Especially if you could hit some kind of timing when the spanishiwa build is still "building up" and expanding. An issue could still be though that it's alot of tech on 2 base, so it's gotta be allinish or get the economy of a third to back it up into the midgame. The ultimate question though is, how do you know which tech path to go for if you don't have a robo/no early enough hallucination. Because you gotta know pretty early when to go for more gas, which buildings to build, if the zerg is gonna attack you etc. It's not that much tech, really. TC + Archives is 300/300 compared to 225/175 for a robo and one obs. You also (probably) save a ton of gas by making few/zero sentries, which of course means you save 100/100 not getting hallucinate. Archons really don't suck vs roaches and can't be kited off creep, slow zealots can which may or may not be a big problem. If you lay down TC and a robo at the same time, then immediately build + morph an archon, or build + double chrono an immortal, the archon morph completes only ~10s later and requires no chronoboosts, but archons work vs everything while immortals are only good vs roaches. It seems likely that there's a timing after 1-5 archons where you can attack and trade equally/favorably no matter what/how many units the Z has, or at least run away from huge numbers of roaches/hydras off creep (slings obv die real fast to +1 archon/zlot). That attack timing, if it exists, would make up for getting a really late robo and obs. And the nice thing with zlot/archon is that army trades are good things, compared to sentry and colossus heavy comps where army trades are disasters. The one thing I really see causing a snag is the 200/200 for charge, but perhaps that can be worked out. What happens if you don't build those 2 initial stalkers, but rather make 2 more zealots or a zealot & a stalker? In your usual games where you go expo -> robo, when/why/how many sentries do you build? Do you think the build could be tweaked by getting double gas sooner, or by cutting probes to get a faster nexus + 3rd/4th gas, but with less probes? Either way gives you less minerals at certain times, but more gas sooner/overall. | ||
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Contractor
United States41 Posts
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Taxo
Belgium23 Posts
I've got a question about the build order itself. It says @33 - Zealot @33 - Pylon I don't understand how this is possible. Unless I'm very mistaken (in wich case I apologise right now ^^) at 33 food the food cap is 34 thus making building a zealot impossible. is the 5th zealot a misstype? Should it be 32 zealot 33pylon? Thanks in advance, Taxo | ||
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CreativeAlias
United States49 Posts
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watwat
48 Posts
On June 03 2011 01:19 Taxo wrote: Hi, I've got a question about the build order itself. It says @33 - Zealot @33 - Pylon I don't understand how this is possible. Unless I'm very mistaken (in wich case I apologise right now ^^) at 33 food the food cap is 34 thus making building a zealot impossible. is the 5th zealot a misstype? Should it be 32 zealot 33pylon? Thanks in advance, Taxo I believe 33 zealot would mean the zealot made your food 33, so it was built @ 31 | ||
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SCvanTango
Switzerland64 Posts
in replay 5 if the zerg got banes instead of raoches to thwart the early attack, wouldnt he have been able to bust right through that 2 zealots at the front and win instantly? even if u would get out some sentries at that point, is that enough to stop the zerg from eventually breaking in? I know most zerg these days go raoches, but still, I'm courious if u ever encountered that and if this opener can hold banelings well with the lack of sentries. Thanks for taking your time to post this Pepe and thanks to PsiBladeZ for answering all the questions players have about this nice opener. | ||
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Pepe-
Germany87 Posts
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Selendis
Australia509 Posts
I think the true strength of this build though is psychological. Obviously there are windows of opportunity for the zerg where he can absolutely crush you or just drone and expand (as with ay build really). But more often than not your zergy opponent will either be tilted by the fierce early aggression or get way too cocky, thinking he has successfully defeated a 2gate rush all in. | ||
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ledgerhs
United States34 Posts
On August 07 2011 04:37 Selendis wrote: I have been doing a 2-gate pressure expand for weeks now. it works a charm. my BO is different though. I put my cyber core down late and just attack nice and early with chronoed zlots. The minerals I would have spent on the cyber core i spend on either an earlier forge or an earlier expand depending on what the zerg is doing. I think the true strength of this build though is psychological. Obviously there are windows of opportunity for the zerg where he can absolutely crush you or just drone and expand (as with ay build really). But more often than not your zergy opponent will either be tilted by the fierce early aggression or get way too cocky, thinking he has successfully defeated a 2gate rush all in. Yeah same here. I don't know why this build seems so strong, but I actually end up using it in both PvZ and PvP now. Maybe it's the metagame. I do this even on maps where FFE is considered the best opening, I just wall off with the initial gates and dump down a forge to finish it off once the zealots are out. I have a different BO but the same basic principle. I do 14gate 15pylon 16gate and just chrono zealots out for an initial pressure, and the first wave (3) leaves my base at or slightly before 4:00 mark. I do an earlier pylon, as it aligns nicely with the scout timings, so I know if the chrono is better spent on probes to get an earlier double gas. It's so versatile, and seems so mineral rich build when it needs to be. Chrono max mineral saturation early, cut probes for a nexus or pick gases for one basing play. The timings seem to give me a huge supply lead and good map control. As darkforce points out, the roach speedling aggression can sometimes outright kill this build, and thus I don't add the second gate if I scout early gas/pool play. Thank you Pepe for inspiration.  | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On August 19 2011 20:31 ledgerhs wrote: As darkforce points out, the roach speedling aggression can sometimes outright kill this build, and thus I don't add the second gate if I scout early gas/pool play. Did you read the whole guide? In the section "forum responses" pepe provided reasoning why you are fine vs roach-ling attacks of 2base (unless you were talking about one base roach-ling allins which he also mentioned in his guide somewhere above, you always need to scout for one base baneling nest/roach warren/hatch cancel etc and react accordingly, not just with this opening. | ||
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Inside.Out
Canada569 Posts
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