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Noticed there's no [G] there, feel free to edit the title.
Pepe's PvZ 2 Gate Pressure Expand
![[image loading]](http://image-upload.de/image/SZdF77/e0e3b6be0e.jpg) Dont they look evil?
Introduction
Hey guys, I'm Pepe, currently at >3700 points in master league at EU. I would like to share an opening I practised for a few weeks now with you. Opening 2Gate was pretty common against Zerg until Blizzard increased the Zealot buildtime by 5 seconds. I never saw it again so far. Some day, inspired by a 2Gate before Core 3 Zealot 2 Stalker build in PvP, I decided to try something similar in PvZ.
General idea
Zerg always have to decide if they either want to get units or workers, especially in the early game they want to get as many drones as possible. This build actually tries to pressure the Zerg permanently to force as many units as possible until you secured your 3rd base and can finally get the scary deathball. You want to get the maximum of units out of a minimum of production buildings. This is an economic opening, allin-ing is obviously no good idea after forcing units.
Being even or ahead in workers and bases is a reachable goal.
Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +@9 - Pylon (scout)
@14 - Gate
@16 - Gate
@17 - Pylon
@19 - Zealot
@21 - Gas (you better dont forget to put guys in it)
@22 - Pylon
@23 - Zealot
@26 - Zealot
@28 - Core
@28 - Zealot
@33 - Zealot
@33 - Pylon
@34 - 2 Stalker(chronoboost both)
@38 - Warpgate(no chronoboost on it)
@38 - Forge
@39 - Pylon (its a risk and an advantage to put this one down the ramp)
@39 - Zealot
(continue Zealot/Stalker production like you want, you maybe want to get a 3rd Stalker when the first 2 finished, but its better to get a Zealot there to be able to instantly start +1 atk when your Forge finishes)
@ Forge finishing - instantly start +1 atk (you better dont forget it, chronoboost it)
@ 46-49 - Nexus
@ 150-300 Minerals - put down 2 well-placed canons at your natural
@ 200/100 - Robotics and 2nd and 3rd Gas
@ +1 atk finishing - get +1 def
When you feel the time has come better place a 3rd and 4th Gate instead of instantly tech more. You dont need your 4th Gas directly,you can choose on your own.
Chronoboost
+ Show Spoiler +You use your first 4 Chronoboosts on your Nexus when they are available,first of course at 11.
The next 2 are for your Stalkers, next are all for your +1 atk. You will maybe want to also put down your 5th Chronoboost on your Nexus and you will look like an idiot when your core finishes and you are > 65 Energy, but I figured out its much better to save one more for your +1 atk.
Your scouting Probe
+ Show Spoiler +Its nothing spectacular, you scout if there is an early pool and of course you try to delay the Hatch. But you should not forget to get back in Zerg's base when your first Zealot is half done to take a look on how much Gas the Zerg took, if Speed started and if there's any Roach Warren / Baneling Nest. Later on you better get sure there really is a Hatch
Your first agression
+ Show Spoiler +If Zerg was able to put down a Hatch first you can rally your Gates directly to your opponent's Natural but you better use your scouting Probe to check how many Lings pop out. If there are 4 or more you better let your first Zealot run back to the 2nd Zealot. If your opponent plays pool first, you walk to him with 5 Zealots and 2 Stalkers soon done. You actually dont need to kill a single unit, everything you want is that your opponent builds units. In a perfect game you would retreat not losing a single unit. Dont forget to fight Speedlings only when your units are clumped together and next to a wall to not get surrounded completly. When leaving your base place a Probe at your Choke to warp in a Pylon if the Zerg wants to run Lings in your base. ![[image loading]](http://image-upload.de/image/3gOFj8/6cb504114a.jpg) Everyone's gonna die. Too bad they dont fight at the wall.
Zerg responses when seeing 2 Gates
+ Show Spoiler +- Some Zerg players just throw down a Roach Warren and 1 Base attack you with Ling/Roach. I actually never had problems holding it because the Stalkers are always in time.
- Most common reaction is to just build the expo and defend with a few Roaches. Since there isnt much creep you can annoy him a bit with your Stalkers, force a few more Lings and retreat.
Later, when your Robo finishes, you should get 1-2 Immortals when you know there are Roaches instead of an Observer.
- Sometimes you face mass Speedlings, clump your units, try to retreat along Walls. If you lose your units, stay a bit more in your base and delay the Nexus until you feel able to move out.
- Seldomly Zerg will use a few Banelings to their Speedlings, try to kill them with your Stalkers and spread out your Zealots. You will lose them all :D but I hadnt much problems throwing down my Nexus when I faced this early Banelings so far.
-------------- Not a response but if you scout an early Pool you should obviously improvise. 11 Pool before Overlord ( thats the one finishing when you start your 2nd Gate) is the first one you want to chronoboost your first Zealot.
More pressure
+ Show Spoiler +From now on you have to decide on your own if you can pressure a bit or go back, it depends heavily on the game. Just clearing up the Watchtower can also make the Zerg build a few units. Obviously there's a good timing when +1 atk finishes but it's really risky. Some Zerg's have nearly no units at that time, some didnt do anything else than building units. Normally Roaches won't have their Speedupgrade but its not impossible. You better hope they havent :D When you are finding many Roaches + Speedlings try to retreat. Kill the Lings when they come to near and run away from the Roaches. ![[image loading]](http://image-upload.de/image/fZrq3A/adef8eb05b.png) You better regret going this far with your +1 atk timed push, at least you are ahead in workers
Zerg's 2 base Allins
+ Show Spoiler +After playing this build really often I'm pretty sure you are safe to those allins without screwing anything up so far. Especially when you forced a ton of units without losing any at your first agression you can expect some 2 base Allin (mostly 20-24 drones). ![[image loading]](http://image-upload.de/image/shaARl/af480e453b.jpg) Even with reinforcements you are not gonna lose a single probe Those Allins are mostly coming between 8:10 and 8:40 but if you have done everything corretly your 2 Canons should be up at 8:10 and when chronoboosted like I told you +1 atk should be finishing at ~8:15. I faced it only 2 times so far, but Hydra / Speedling on 2 base(~30 worker) can be pretty scary. If you are going for Colossi the first could be half done. I'm not sure if you can hold it. If you have a Twilight Council up(explained later), you should go for mass Chargelots. They will rape Hydras. ----------------------- It's not an Allin but some Zerg are playing Mutas after getting their 3rd. If you arent seeing Roaches or only a few, you better get 1-2 canons in your main and Blink as early as possible. But I cant remember losing to Mutas even when I didnt expect it.
Follow-Up's
+ Show Spoiler +So far I only transitioned into either the classic Colossus / Voidray / Stalker Deathball or otherwise Immortal / High Templar. The advantage of the 2nd one is that you will be really fast at 3-1 and those Immortals destroy Roaches. You will always be ahead in Upgrades even with only 1 Forge. Mostly I start the TC close before +1 def is done.
No matter which of those 2 I chose so far, I started my 3rd base pretty early. Mostly when I got 2-3 Immortals and having the knowledge there's no Allin coming.
That I didnt try anything else doesnt mean there's no other way. Just transition into any Stargate play or just a mass Warpgate 2 basing is of course not impossible.
Preferred Maps
+ Show Spoiler +Maps should be small - medium sized and the Natural should be open and not far away from the main's choke. That choke should also point into Natural's direction. (You want to be able to get a useful wall to your Expansion but the Zerg shouldnt be able to defend with only 1-2 Spinecrawlers).
So obviously best is atm Xel Naga and Meta (not cross). Also ok are Blizzard's Typhon and Slag Pits. The 3 GSL maps may be too big. Unsure about Crossfire.
Issues
+ Show Spoiler +
Responses to forum posts
+ Show Spoiler +DarKFoRcE + Show Spoiler +On March 21 2011 21:21 DarKFoRcE wrote:[/B
The main problem with the build is that you wont have many sentries do defend against roach ling allins and similar stuff As mentioned you are not gonna die to Roach Ling... you have your +1 atk what makes your Zealots rape their Lings, you got canons with great range and Stalker to kite Roaches afterwards. You continue with building Immortals. You should at least watch one of those replays and tell me what that guys did hardly wrong when trying to kill me. Tossup + Show Spoiler +On March 21 2011 21:08 Tossup wrote:
I view the first initial to be kind of bad...
So you've pressured them a bit, and assuming they started ling speed they'll have it somewhere between making your zealots and stalkers. That being said, how do you can you count on a zerg letting you go home without killing off your initial push? Hugging walls can only do so much before they come in with ~20 lings and rape your army. If Zerg stops droning at ~18 and builds only Speedlings, who cares if he kills the initial push? your Zealots are gonna kill a ton of Lings when standing next to a wall. If he continues pumping Lings I'll just wait till +1, otherwise I got 3-4 more Zealots out and build a canon at the bottom of my ramp. tentoff + Show Spoiler +On March 22 2011 01:00 tentoff wrote:
May i suggest that you incorporate researching halucination into this build after warp gate research finishes. I find that a halucinated phoenix scout is very valuable, because if you scout a bunch of units, you can turtle up and not risk pushing out, but if you scout an early 3rd base or something, you know that the timing for your attack is perfect. You're getting your first observer relatively fast, so I actually dont see a point in it.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +Replays are numbered. Games are either Laddergames or Customgames with similar skilled opponents. http://www.file-upload.net/download-3302202/Pepe-s-2-Gate.7z.htmlShort descriptions: #1 Pretty normal Ling / Roach beginning followed by some unexpected Mutas. #2 Well defended 11 Pool. Went for counter-agression but was way too greedy. #3 After pumping a ton of units my opponent decided to stop droning and try everything to end the game. #4 Well defended first push but Zerg just screwing up later on. #5 Perma losing your units to Speedling / Baneling doesnt always mean losing. #6 A game couldnt go much better. #7 Fast Speed Roaches followed by some suiciding on Nexus and basetrading. #8 Mass Roaches / Baneling Bombs vs Immortals / High Templar. #9 Pretty standard game, Ling / Roach / Hydra / Broodlord.
Feel free to comment / ask anything after reading the [b]whole guide.
Thanks to Lumbini for helping me practise this
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
this post doesn't have any meaning anymore. 
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On March 21 2011 17:16 iNfeRnaL wrote:
"Pepe's PvZ 2 Gate Pressure Expand"
@9 - Pylon (scout)
@14 - Gate
@16 - Gate
@17 - Gate
This might confuse some people, as you've listed 3 Gateways in your buildorder. XD
whoops :D the last one should be a Pylon 
edited
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I view the first initial to be kind of bad...
So you've pressured them a bit, and assuming they started ling speed they'll have it somewhere between making your zealots and stalkers. That being said, how do you can you count on a zerg letting you go home without killing off your initial push? Hugging walls can only do so much before they come in with ~20 lings and rape your army.
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^ That's why you don't have to overcommit. If you see a 14 gas 14 pool, speed won't finish until around 6 minutes? idk, but just go home around 30 seconds early because you already forced lings.
If it's a 15 hatch 14 gas 13 pool or something, you won't have to worry about speed until 8 ish, or even not at all, so you can easily pressure and micro with zealots.
Oh, and 1 zealot could actually beat 4 slow lings with step micro.
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On March 21 2011 21:12 iChau wrote:
^ That's why you don't have to overcommit. If you see a 14 gas 14 pool, speed won't finish until around 6 minutes? idk, but just go home around 30 seconds early because you already forced lings.
If it's a 15 hatch 14 gas 13 pool or something, you won't have to worry about speed until 8 ish, or even not at all, so you can easily pressure and micro with zealots.
Oh, and 1 zealot could actually beat 4 slow lings with step micro.
Speed finishes at 5:05- 5:10 usually. The main problem with the build is that you wont have many sentries do defend against roach ling allins and similar stuff
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I find that any build revolving around stalker pressure or pure zealot, stalker pressure is bad against any early speedling build. Speed finishes before your first stalkers really do damage and thus have to retreat even before that to not risk losing them.
Sure a build like this may force a zerg into making some units instead of droning but they will pick of your attack with minimal losses doing so generally. Afterwards they can prevent your expo for quite some time because you didn't get sentries and they will be ahead.
Early stalker pressure is quite good if they go late gas though. Stalkers will have a short reign of supremacy then as they can kite both lings and roaches then. This scenario only happens when the map is relatively small and they decided to get late gas, which is very uncommon in today's PvZ metagame. Thus i'd only ever do this if you are sure that's the case, otherwise the delayed gas and lack of sentries will cost you alot..
Besides if early stalkers are good I often rather go with a 1 gas 4 gate then with 2 gate pressure. It is harder to scout often and gives a critical mass of stalkers right away which can be used to kite very well.
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what advantages does this have over 3 gate sentry expo with the sentries constantly saving energy for mid game?
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Added some responses in the first post
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Nice writeup. I also highly value early pushes and pressure as often as possible and then pulling back in order to force more units and less drones. However, like you mentioned, there is the problem of after the first small push, whether it is safe to push out with a small-mid sized army to pressure again, because if he built a ton of speedlings, he will just demolish your entire army and you will be behind.
May i suggest that you incorporate researching halucination into this build after warp gate research finishes. I find that a halucinated phoenix scout is very valuable, because if you scout a bunch of units, you can turtle up and not risk pushing out, but if you scout an early 3rd base or something, you know that the timing for your attack is perfect.
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might be viable with hatchfirst?
but it is a pretty gamble build against speedlings
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Seriously... what tells your opponent that you're not retreating after clearing the watchtower?
If he masses Speedlings he's gambling himself...
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this might be worth having to combat a zerg opening with no fast gas.
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I do an effectively similar opening if Z takes gas later than 3 min (high masters), but with a pretty different building ordering.
I go gate -> gas -> zealot -> core -> zealot -> stalker for a quick 2z/1s push and reinforce with a 2nd stalker. I get 2 more gates to time up with WG to warp in zealot sentry and immediately push again. I produce 2z, 2s and 1 sentry off my gateway before WG finishes, and then I warp in 2 sentries and a zealot. If nothing dies, I think my initial force is then 3 zealots, 2 stalkers and 2 sentries. I go by feel on whether I attack with that or wait for an additional round or two of warp-ins.
When it goes well, I force Z well out of his comfort zone in terms of droning/zergling production, and I frequenty have a 5-10 worker lead entering the midgame.
I say that my opening is similar to yours because we're attacking at similar timings with similarly sized armies. You attack with 3 zealots slightly faster than I attack with 2 zealots and a stalker. We both almost immediately follow our 3 unit pokes with 7 unit mini-attacks.
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I like this build alot. My PvZ always suffered from being too defensive and giving the Zerg the opportunity to drone heavily early on. This build gives me a hand in terms of expansion, upgrade and pressure timing.
I think in the hands of good players, the 3 Gate Sentry Expand is still stronger. But you also have to consider that every Zerg knows that build inside out, hence this one can throw some of them off.
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This is basicaly Adel's PvP build for PvZ ?
I've also been working on something similar, but in my version I proxy the 2 gates pretty obviously to force the zerg to over-react and massively delay his expansion while cannoning mine.
Intersting build but I think the success you are having is greatly due to Zerg's not knowing how to react to this yet.
I have some concerns about 2 base roach all ins and how you'll be able to deal with them in that time when your expo hasn't paid for itself yet, and your attacks have ceased to be effective. You cover it a little in your thread, but I'm not sure your opponents were doing it as efficiently as they should.
Intersting build, and great OP though
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If you lose your first units, you are so royally fucked. I don't understand the merit in this BO. So much risk, no true economic advantage over three gates, and relatively little true damage?
I don't think you understand how one-base pressure expands are supposed to work vs. Zerg. The fact is, if you go all the way to a competent Zerg's base, your units will likely die. Maybe a better thing to do would be to kill the Zerglings at watchtowers and retreat.
It also seems extremely hard to deny scouting with a 14/16 Gate and a 21 gas; when you put on early pressure denying scouting is almost your first priority, so I think any Zerglings that you mights have forced will be made at the Zerg's leisure.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but this is almost exactly what is see happening (or what should be happening) in the replays.
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I've been doing this build for some weeks now at mid-high master level.
My conclusions(which may answer some of your questions):
*At first most zergs think that it's an all zealot pressure/allin build and make a roach warren before/slightly after they just expanded.
* Their scouting drone does usally see everything that happens before the forge goes down; which at this point looks like an allin/pressure with zealots and a couple of stalkers. The only thing that suggests otherwise is that you continue making probes(but they're not chronoboosted however so it's not a clear tell).
* The least I get out of this pressure expand is the zerg throwing out an really early roach warren/baneling nest and making 15 lings / 6 roaches for defense.
* It's true that if you lose your first units you have some issues, but if you do, most zergs will 2 base hard push you and if you hold that with cannons + immortal just popping you're atleast even if not ahead for the next minutes.
* When everything goes perfect (you don't lose any of your units and force much from the zerg) they often stay on low tech units with few upgrades while taking an early third to get their economy "back". This makes 2 base 1/1 blinkstalker + sentry+zealot pushes very deadly since they basically rely on mass roaches and/or speedlings/+banelings to keep them alive.
My conclusion about this build is that it's an as good alternative as 3 gate expand or even better depending on your playstyle. It does require some practice to, for example, not get too confident with your units however. It doesn't really put you behind in any way if you play it good, and throws many zergs off their usual heavy macro play. Which gives you some kind of psychological advantage ^__^
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As a zerg, I feel like the best response to this is to get 10-16 lings, kill the first push and harass the toss front to delay their expansion while I drone. I'd imagine it's much more effective against a hatch first zerg who's reluctant to make more than a pair of lings.
Also, how does it fare against the Spanishawa opening?
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Well against a hatch first I usally rally my zealots to their expo, which is a pretty aggressive move, to make them more scared.
I don't think I've faced the spanishiwa opening that much, since many people go fast roach to counter mass zealot or something like it, but the few times I did face it I think I saw around 3-4-5 spines at their natural which kinda makes me satisfied that I've hampered their economy a little bit atleast.
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On May 14 2011 04:34 GoSerenity wrote:
Well against a hatch first I usally rally my zealots to their expo, which is a pretty aggressive move, to make them more scared.
I don't think I've faced the spanishiwa opening that much, since many people go fast roach to counter mass zealot or something like it, but the few times I did face it I think I saw around 3-4-5 spines at their natural which kinda makes me satisfied that I've hampered their economy a little bit atleast.
3-5 spines = 3 - 5 drones + 450 - 750 minerals
I'd say you are very ahead, not just a little.
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HasuObs is doing this really often in PvT
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wow this is great! and at lower leagues it kills no-gas (spanishawa) resemblances as zealots pwn lings in small numbers until queen pops
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I have been doing something very similar to this build (also masters P), and I have found it pretty effective (it's basically an econ 2 gate pressure, but branches based on what you scout and what map position they are at). I think one of the reasons that it does so well is that it is currently the opposite of the most popular builds (3 gate expo) and so Z's aren't prepared and then react poorly. I think if Z make's the best decisions (not to overcommit units) and has decent micro (not to lose drones), then you are in a tough spot. Likewise, as someone mentioned before, the speedling all-in or roach all-in can be tricky to hold (not impossible), but can put you behind. Finally, if you don't play properly or zerg responds properly it can be really hard to take expand late and hold it without being really far behind.
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this is so great! i want to see some of your replays though...they aren't downloadable for some reason
edit: nvm got it to work... lol crap what i am saying XD
this is so awesome.. i'm going to start most of my games now typing "Pepe's 2 gate" in chat... i don't think this build is limited to PvZ lol
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This opening simply does not work if the zerg opens gas pool and knows what hes doing. You will lose all your units to slings if you attack. If you don't attack, zerg can build a flock of lings to keep you defensive/delay your expo, drone to 30ish and roach ling all in. With the lack of sentry energy accumulation, you will get rolled.
Additionally, early ling bling play hard counters this.
The best you can hope for is to trick the zerg into thinking you're doing some DT opening and force spores.
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Having trouble downloading the replays.. its giving me crappy popups and trying to load strange files.....
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On May 14 2011 05:51 gastro54 wrote:
This opening simply does not work if the zerg opens gas pool and knows what hes doing. You will lose all your units to slings if you attack. If you don't attack, zerg can build a flock of lings to keep you defensive/delay your expo, drone to 30ish and roach ling all in. With the lack of sentry energy accumulation, you will get rolled.
Additionally, early ling bling play hard counters this.
The best you can hope for is to trick the zerg into thinking you're doing some DT opening and force spores.
About losing your units to speedlings; the chance to lose your units increases on some maps. Which is why this build isn't recommended by the author on some medium-large cross position maps for example. It's kinda all about your aggressiveness with your units. If you walk up and start to hit the hatchery/queen/spine you will most likely lose your units because the zerg has full vision of your units and you give him time to think and position himself. However, it's all about being cautious and remember that threathening the zerg is enough of a victory.
A good example of a perfect execution with your threathening is walking towards the zergs base, kill the ling(s) at the watchtower(s), move up towards his base and then retreat.
Few zergs actually run after you with the units they made. But if they do, just try to position yourself near a wall or something with stalkers on the inside of the half-circle and you'll probably atleast kill around 15-20 lings before you go down.
About the zerg delaying your expansion this usally does not happen if you are fast enough to get 1-2 cannons up. I usally have 2 cannons finished when my units return to my base. And 2 cannons with good placement does amazing damage against just lings.
Finally about the roach ling allin. The current standard 3 gate sentry expand gives the impression that sentries is the last hope of protossmanity. Therefore I understand your worry about sentry energy accumulation being a problem. But I assure you that around 6-10 gateway units, 2 wellplaced cannons, 1-2 +1 attack immortals and good unit placement is enough to surivive these kind of roach+ling allins. This build is aswell not disregarding sentries in any way, sentries are awesome units and gives your much control over fights. These will help you survive against ling+bling attacks. And aswell immortals, just like archons, are awesome tanks against banelings.
Pepe did mention to me that he takes his gas earlier to get more sentries. He did aswell say that hes planning to update the thread when he finds more time to play.
I'd aswell like to add that I am not the author, I am mainly speaking from my own experiences, which may be different than the authors.
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Finally about the roach ling allin. The current standard 3 gate sentry expand gives the impression that sentries is the last hope of protossmanity. Therefore I understand your worry about sentry energy accumulation being a problem. But I assure you that around 6-10 gateway units, 2 wellplaced cannons, 1-2 +1 attack immortals and good unit placement is enough to surivive these kind of roach+ling allins. This build is aswell not disregarding sentries in any way, sentries are awesome units and gives your much control over fights. These will help you survive against ling+bling attacks. And aswell immortals, just like archons, are awesome tanks against banelings.
You shouldn't have immortals against an roach all in. You will have ~8 units (only 1 or 2 sentries with this build) and 2/3 cannons when Zergs can push with ~6-8 roaches with ~20 speedlings and more streaming in if Zerg is infact all-inning.
If the Zerg isn't doing a complete all in, he will kill you army and kill you later because he was able to trade armies efficiently while he can pump rounds of drones and grab a free 3rd knowing aggression isn't on its way.
I just don't see Protoss being able to hold off roach all ins ESPECIALLY if they lose any of their initial units they are poking and prodding with.
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On May 14 2011 08:42 zJayy962 wrote:
You shouldn't have immortals against an roach all in. You will have ~8 units (only 1 or 2 sentries with this build) and 2/3 cannons when Zergs can push with ~6-8 roaches with ~20 speedlings and more streaming in if Zerg is infact all-inning.
If the Zerg isn't doing a complete all in, he will kill you army and kill you later because he was able to trade armies efficiently while he can pump rounds of drones and grab a free 3rd knowing aggression isn't on its way.
I just don't see Protoss being able to hold off roach all ins ESPECIALLY if they lose any of their initial units they are poking and prodding with.
I actually don't really feel like theorycrafting with you, since it seems like you havn't actually seen the build in action.
I looked for some replays of my recent PvZ games but I couldn't find any good ones to upload for you so I have to reference you to the authors pre-patch replays on how to survive. Then again, roach ling allins didn't really change with the patch so I'm sure you'll be pleased with what you see.
The original post covers much questions if you look closely.
I'll also quote the author when he responded to a similar post by DarKFoRcE:
As mentioned you are not gonna die to Roach Ling... you have your +1 atk what makes your Zealots rape their Lings, you got canons with great range and Stalker to kite Roaches afterwards. You continue with building Immortals. You should at least watch one of those replays and tell me what that guys did hardly wrong when trying to kill me.
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Does this transition well into a Stalker heavy 4 gate? As long as you do not lose too much Zealots, pressuring the Zerg nonstop will sometimes make them forget to mine gas while holding off the 2 gate. It could be similiar to
NASL SPOILER Week 4 + Show Spoiler +oGsMC vs Machine on Crossfire
where you slowly get Warp Gates and set up a proxy Pylon without overcommitment of the Zealots.
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On May 14 2011 09:22 iTzAnglory wrote:Does this transition well into a Stalker heavy 4 gate? As long as you do not lose too much Zealots, pressuring the Zerg nonstop will sometimes make them forget to mine gas while holding off the 2 gate. It could be similiar to NASL SPOILER Week 4 + Show Spoiler +oGsMC vs Machine on Crossfire where you slowly get Warp Gates and set up a proxy Pylon without overcommitment of the Zealots.
The build is designed to be a pressure expand, so you'll have to modify it pretty heavily if you wish to get enough gas to go stalker heavy early. I'm unsure if you're asking if you can go 2 gate pressure into 4 gate stalker 1 base all-in or something else.
If it's the all-in you're thinking about I suggest that you'd;
go double gas,
not add the forge,
stop probe production at around 20,
add 2-3 gateways after you've made all your initial units,
chronoboost on warpgate abit
However I wouldn't recommend relying on that the zerg forgets to mine gas.
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On May 14 2011 09:37 GoSerenity wrote:
The build is designed to be a pressure expand, so you'll have to modify it pretty heavily if you wish to get enough gas to go stalker heavy early.
Lol aren't all builds vs Z pressure expand? but you're right just threatening zerg and making him morph units instead of drones early on is a win.
So the combination is 4 zealots + stalkers...
the tricky part is when to put down a cancellable pylon to block ling run by...
maybe have the nearest probe on minerals hotkeyed to make quick pylon
it's not a changeable mixture of early unit composition right?... i think we should hear more from the author...
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How about delay robo a bit to add gasses sooner and go for HT/archon/zealot. Could even delay the robo by a LOT and get a couple sentries + hallucinate instead of observers, but I personally prefer obs. Oh and, get the TC in time for +2 weapons instead of +1 armor.
Don't need immortals vs roaches, add a few cannons to survive early and be happy because chargelot/archon will kill them real easy in a few minutes.
Just a style thing to go along with the archon fad, and I personally have always liked gateway units and hated colossus.
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On May 14 2011 11:36 IzieBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 09:37 GoSerenity wrote:
The build is designed to be a pressure expand, so you'll have to modify it pretty heavily if you wish to get enough gas to go stalker heavy early. So the combination is 4 zealots + stalkers... the tricky part is when to put down a cancellable pylon to block ling run by... maybe have the nearest probe on minerals hotkeyed to make quick pylon it's not a changeable mixture of early unit composition right?... i think we should hear more from the author...
The ling runbys are extremely popular so I have a probe standing in the building choke near my ramp, and if I see lings I insta put down a pylon.
Of course you can change the mixture of units you move out with, but I wouldn't recommend it. Because if you make let's say 1 zealot and 5-6 stalkers and the opponent goes 20 lings the zerg will know that he can kill them. Aswell as getting more stalkers would either require you go get an earlier core, or wait with the push. Doing gets you less zealots and costs more. The zealots are also good when the eventual defending comes since with +1 attack they 2 shot lings.
Getting more gas earlier will also delay the build and expansion since you'll be missing out on mineral income.
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Is this [s]PePe from the olden days?
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On May 14 2011 16:02 Keilah wrote:
How about delay robo a bit to add gasses sooner and go for HT/archon/zealot. Could even delay the robo by a LOT and get a couple sentries + hallucinate instead of observers, but I personally prefer obs. Oh and, get the TC in time for +2 weapons instead of +1 armor.
Don't need immortals vs roaches, add a few cannons to survive early and be happy because chargelot/archon will kill them real easy in a few minutes.
Just a style thing to go along with the archon fad, and I personally have always liked gateway units and hated colossus.
It's theoretically possible I guess. It's alot of teching on 2 base however.
But I would never suggest to skip/delay robo against roaches. Immortals are extremely cost effective against roaches. Archons on 2 base suck against roaches because you'll max get 1-3 before you get attacked by an allin. Chargelots are also kiteable and not cost effective against roaches. Atleast against good players because they'll kite you out of cannon range and kill your buildings/units. And just adding a couple of more cannons doesn't really solve the issue because you've gotta know what the zerg is doing because of the cannon buildtime and it not being a waste of minerals. Many zergs I face actually take an extremely early third/+ fourth to compensate for them being "abused".
HOWEVER, some kind of variant of what you're suggesting I could actually see working extremely well vs the spanishiwa ling+bling+infestor play. Especially if you could hit some kind of timing when the spanishiwa build is still "building up" and expanding. An issue could still be though that it's alot of tech on 2 base, so it's gotta be allinish or get the economy of a third to back it up into the midgame.
The ultimate question though is, how do you know which tech path to go for if you don't have a robo/no early enough hallucination. Because you gotta know pretty early when to go for more gas, which buildings to build, if the zerg is gonna attack you etc.
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On May 14 2011 20:43 BBC.807 wrote:
Is this [s]PePe from the olden days?
I have no idea about the authors background, I just found this build some time ago and used it ^^
EDIT: I understand that many may wonder why I'm the one "taking charge" and explaining/discussing about this build.
From my knowledge (I talked to the author some time ago) PePe isn't active on teamliquid.net at this moment due to RL. And I've been doing this build in pretty much every PvZ for the past 2-3 weeks and I feel that the only information people can get is from me and the original post. I do not know of any other protoss players that utilizes this build.
I think it offers an interesting approach to PvZ which shouldn't be disregarded or forgotten in the depths of the strategy forum
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The zerg community does not approve of this! However, on a serious note, this is going to be rather difficult to do, especially against roach ling all ins that so many zergs are doing now against protoss.
And as Pwadoc is saying, I would love to see how it works against spanishiwa's style as well. It seems that this will be valnurable to speedlings due to the lack of forcefield.
EDIT: Also, what about 15 gas 14 pool or 14/14 builds? Aren't they the most common styles that zerg does? In most of the pro replays that I watch, witht he exception of IdrA, they all open 15g/14p against toss and this would not work.
It also will depend on how fast you can scout and positions like you said.
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I always open similar to this if i spawn close positions. I time my probe so i scout the close position around the time i build my gas. If it's too far, i feel slings are too much of a threat
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On May 14 2011 21:58 ODKStevez wrote:
The zerg community does not approve of this! However, on a serious note, this is going to be rather difficult to do, especially against roach ling all ins that so many zergs are doing now against protoss.
And as Pwadoc is saying, I would love to see how it works against spanishiwa's style as well. It seems that this will be valnurable to speedlings due to the lack of forcefield.
EDIT: Also, what about 15 gas 14 pool or 14/14 builds? Aren't they the most common styles that zerg does? In most of the pro replays that I watch, witht he exception of IdrA, they all open 15g/14p against toss and this would not work.
It also will depend on how fast you can scout and positions like you said.
I actually started doing this build just because of the common roach ling allins that you mentioned.
I questioned the way to approach/turtling nature against these allins with 3 gate sentry expand; to hope that you nail every forcefield and rely on 8 sentries to save you and even then may have to cancel/delay the nexus.
This build does use sentries and doing otherwise in PvZ can be pretty dangerous. This build doesn't rely on them as much in the earlygame however.
I just don't see speedlings being that much of an issue if you play it correctly, of course map dependant etc. But it's all about establishing some kind of sense, or knowledge if you will, on how to not get your initial units killed but still force a response.
Most zergs I see throw down a very early roach warren to protect themselves against mass zealots. This may be the reason why I havn't really faced any spanishiwa style zergs, I don't know.
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On May 14 2011 22:19 Coolguy wrote:
I always open similar to this if i spawn close positions. I time my probe so i scout the close position around the time i build my gas. If it's too far, i feel slings are too much of a threat
Yeah I guess it's up to you if you feel it's too dangerous. I did however ask PePe shortly after the infestor change patch and all that stuff if the recommended maps had changed, but he notified me that they hadn't. So I'll have to refer to his thinking there.
Aswell I'd like to echo that this build is extremely safe against zerg earlygame cheese. I don't think I've lost any game because of early pools or 5-7 roach rush pushes. Some zergs even go 1 base roach push when they see this build early. And as I am aware of that there are a few builds with early pool designed to make the protoss overreact doing this build makes them feel a victory, that they forced 2 early gates instead of gate+core. Which also kinda works in this builds favor. Because when the push comes they'll most likely overproduce when you do infact have an expansion building.
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On May 14 2011 20:48 GoSerenity wrote:
It's theoretically possible I guess. It's alot of teching on 2 base however.
But I would never suggest to skip/delay robo against roaches. Immortals are extremely cost effective against roaches. Archons on 2 base suck against roaches because you'll max get 1-3 before you get attacked by an allin. Chargelots are also kiteable and not cost effective against roaches. Atleast against good players because they'll kite you out of cannon range and kill your buildings/units. And just adding a couple of more cannons doesn't really solve the issue because you've gotta know what the zerg is doing because of the cannon buildtime and it not being a waste of minerals. Many zergs I face actually take an extremely early third/+ fourth to compensate for them being "abused".
HOWEVER, some kind of variant of what you're suggesting I could actually see working extremely well vs the spanishiwa ling+bling+infestor play. Especially if you could hit some kind of timing when the spanishiwa build is still "building up" and expanding. An issue could still be though that it's alot of tech on 2 base, so it's gotta be allinish or get the economy of a third to back it up into the midgame.
The ultimate question though is, how do you know which tech path to go for if you don't have a robo/no early enough hallucination. Because you gotta know pretty early when to go for more gas, which buildings to build, if the zerg is gonna attack you etc.
It's not that much tech, really. TC + Archives is 300/300 compared to 225/175 for a robo and one obs. You also (probably) save a ton of gas by making few/zero sentries, which of course means you save 100/100 not getting hallucinate.
Archons really don't suck vs roaches and can't be kited off creep, slow zealots can which may or may not be a big problem.
If you lay down TC and a robo at the same time, then immediately build + morph an archon, or build + double chrono an immortal, the archon morph completes only ~10s later and requires no chronoboosts, but archons work vs everything while immortals are only good vs roaches.
It seems likely that there's a timing after 1-5 archons where you can attack and trade equally/favorably no matter what/how many units the Z has, or at least run away from huge numbers of roaches/hydras off creep (slings obv die real fast to +1 archon/zlot). That attack timing, if it exists, would make up for getting a really late robo and obs. And the nice thing with zlot/archon is that army trades are good things, compared to sentry and colossus heavy comps where army trades are disasters.
The one thing I really see causing a snag is the 200/200 for charge, but perhaps that can be worked out.
What happens if you don't build those 2 initial stalkers, but rather make 2 more zealots or a zealot & a stalker?
In your usual games where you go expo -> robo, when/why/how many sentries do you build?
Do you think the build could be tweaked by getting double gas sooner, or by cutting probes to get a faster nexus + 3rd/4th gas, but with less probes? Either way gives you less minerals at certain times, but more gas sooner/overall.
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On Shattered Temple you can wall off pretty much all of your naturals choke with 2 gates and a forge, then you can put 1 or 2 cannons behind that.
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Hi,
I've got a question about the build order itself.
It says
@33 - Zealot
@33 - Pylon
I don't understand how this is possible. Unless I'm very mistaken (in wich case I apologise right now ^^) at 33 food the food cap is 34 thus making building a zealot impossible.
is the 5th zealot a misstype? Should it be 32 zealot 33pylon?
Thanks in advance,
Taxo
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Why not just use your 2gate army to defend the nexus rather than attacking? Or move to the watch tower, but don't commit to the attack? On most maps spine crawlers will be done before your army gets there, and it doesn't take much more than that to hold the initial attack off in my experience.
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On June 03 2011 01:19 Taxo wrote:
Hi,
I've got a question about the build order itself.
It says
@33 - Zealot
@33 - Pylon
I don't understand how this is possible. Unless I'm very mistaken (in wich case I apologise right now ^^) at 33 food the food cap is 34 thus making building a zealot impossible.
is the 5th zealot a misstype? Should it be 32 zealot 33pylon?
Thanks in advance,
Taxo
I believe 33 zealot would mean the zealot made your food 33, so it was built @ 31
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erm, may sound stupid, but isnt this build highly prone to 2base banelingbusts?
in replay 5 if the zerg got banes instead of raoches to thwart the early attack, wouldnt he have been able to bust right through that 2 zealots at the front and win instantly? even if u would get out some sentries at that point, is that enough to stop the zerg from eventually breaking in?
I know most zerg these days go raoches, but still, I'm courious if u ever encountered that and if this opener can hold banelings well with the lack of sentries.
Thanks for taking your time to post this Pepe and thanks to PsiBladeZ for answering all the questions players have about this nice opener.
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I didnt play much 1v1 for some time now, but I cant remember losing a game to banelings without making a big mistake or getting trapped outside my base.
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I have been doing a 2-gate pressure expand for weeks now. it works a charm. my BO is different though. I put my cyber core down late and just attack nice and early with chronoed zlots. The minerals I would have spent on the cyber core i spend on either an earlier forge or an earlier expand depending on what the zerg is doing.
I think the true strength of this build though is psychological. Obviously there are windows of opportunity for the zerg where he can absolutely crush you or just drone and expand (as with ay build really). But more often than not your zergy opponent will either be tilted by the fierce early aggression or get way too cocky, thinking he has successfully defeated a 2gate rush all in.
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On August 07 2011 04:37 Selendis wrote:
I have been doing a 2-gate pressure expand for weeks now. it works a charm. my BO is different though. I put my cyber core down late and just attack nice and early with chronoed zlots. The minerals I would have spent on the cyber core i spend on either an earlier forge or an earlier expand depending on what the zerg is doing.
I think the true strength of this build though is psychological. Obviously there are windows of opportunity for the zerg where he can absolutely crush you or just drone and expand (as with ay build really). But more often than not your zergy opponent will either be tilted by the fierce early aggression or get way too cocky, thinking he has successfully defeated a 2gate rush all in.
Yeah same here. I don't know why this build seems so strong, but I actually end up using it in both PvZ and PvP now. Maybe it's the metagame. I do this even on maps where FFE is considered the best opening, I just wall off with the initial gates and dump down a forge to finish it off once the zealots are out.
I have a different BO but the same basic principle. I do 14gate 15pylon 16gate and just chrono zealots out for an initial pressure, and the first wave (3) leaves my base at or slightly before 4:00 mark. I do an earlier pylon, as it aligns nicely with the scout timings, so I know if the chrono is better spent on probes to get an earlier double gas.
It's so versatile, and seems so mineral rich build when it needs to be. Chrono max mineral saturation early, cut probes for a nexus or pick gases for one basing play. The timings seem to give me a huge supply lead and good map control.
As darkforce points out, the roach speedling aggression can sometimes outright kill this build, and thus I don't add the second gate if I scout early gas/pool play.
Thank you Pepe for inspiration.
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On August 19 2011 20:31 ledgerhs wrote:
As darkforce points out, the roach speedling aggression can sometimes outright kill this build, and thus I don't add the second gate if I scout early gas/pool play.
Did you read the whole guide? In the section "forum responses" pepe provided reasoning why you are fine vs roach-ling attacks of 2base (unless you were talking about one base roach-ling allins which he also mentioned in his guide somewhere above, you always need to scout for one base baneling nest/roach warren/hatch cancel etc and react accordingly, not just with this opening.
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as a zerg ive seen this opening a few times, i just throw down a baneling nest and its basically an autowin for me
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EPT![[image loading]](http://image-upload.de/image/CbjMnX/d3121cba41.jpg)
Oh the noes, Pylon displaced. Fortunately that didnt happen with that push half way done
