EPTOL (100) + scouting OL (100) = 200
Zerg's Unsung Hero, The Broodling! - Page 3
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
zako
4 Posts
OL (100) + scouting OL (100) = 200 | ||
|
l90 Proof
64 Posts
Cons: -You lose a total of ~200 minerals as oppose to the 100 mineral scouting overlord sacrifice INITIALLY. _ *When you build the replacement overlord you are dead even at your mineral loss of 200.* Please edit OP as this incorrect math. After the hatch/evo trick, you have spent 200 minerals and gained nothing except scouting info. Net supply change = 0. Note that you did NOT build overlords with this. After sac'ing an overlord, you lose 100 minerals, and the 8 supply that it had GIVEN you, so your net supply change if you had not made overlords to begin with is 0. The drop in supply is ONLY a factor if you had underbuilt overlords, instead of using the 200 minerals you set aside for scouting to build the two extra scouting overlords instead of a hatch/evo. Thus, if you sac 2 overlords, we can all agree you are guaranteed full scouting, and your net supply change compared to hatch/evo is ZERO, because the 2 sacc'ed overlords were EXTRA. You built them to scout. Just like you shouldn't count a hatch/cancel as a "loss" of supply, since you built the hatch just to scout/get the evo up, the fact you "lose" the supply you would "gain" from building the hatch is irrelevent. Thus the real pros are: You get broodlings in their base and might kill something with them. You don't ahve to get overlords crossmap. You don't have to plan in the 2 extra OL worth of supply. Cons: You need to spend the hatch/evo money way earlier in the game than you do to build 2 new OL right before you sac the two by his base (to maintain constant supply) YOu don't control precisely when the scouting occurs, as you can't determine exactly when the combo of offcreep+ attacks will kill yoru evo. On balance, I think you lose doing hatch/evo vs double OL scout if you really want to guarantee full scouting of opponents base. This is b/c moeny is worth more earlier when it is more scarce, and because you lose control of your scouting. The possibility you will do damage does not pay for that, in my opinion. | ||
|
Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
| ||
|
morimacil
France921 Posts
Wrong. It takes you back to the exact same spot. You need it for supply, but it doesn't raise you above the supply that the first overlord gave you. You wouldn't have needed it anyway if you didnt sac the overlord in the first place. yeah, it takes you back to the exact same spot. The cost of having 1 overlord is 100 minerals. If you actually build units, you will need to build overlords. So making 1 overlord that you need for units isnt an investment in scouting. its an investment in getting units, that you would have to make anyway. if you have one overlord, that you would need for supply anyway, and have it sit around, there is no extra cost to it. If you have one overlord that you would need for supply anyway, get a second overlord, and sacrifice the first one, then you had to pay 100 minerals more, because you got 1 more overlord. And you end up in the exact same spot. if you have 1 overlord, and exactly 100 minerals, you can kill that overlord, make a new one, and you are in the exact same spot, except you no longer have 100 minerals. By having 1 overlord die and replacing it, you have exactly 100 minerals less than you would have had if it hadnt died. Regarding the dollars, yes, you havent lost another 10 dollars. But you have been forced to earn another 10 dollars. So the total you have been forced to earn due to losing the initial 10 dollars is 20 dollars. You already had 10 dollars. If you lose 10 dollars, and replace it, yes, you had to earn 20 total, and before that, you had to earn 10 total. So you had to earn 10 more. If you lose 10 dollars, you have to earn 10 more dollars to be in the exact same spot. Losing 10 dollars and replacing the 10 dollars doesnt cost you 20 dollars to end up in the same spot as before. You can go to http://www.basic-mathematics.com/subtraction-word-problems.html Brush up a bit on your math skills And then come back here, and solve this simple problem: Bobby has 2 overlords worth 100 minerals each. Bobby loses an overlord. How many overlords has bobby lost? + Show Spoiler + Answer: 1 (worth 100 minerals) | ||
|
Offhand
United States1869 Posts
Does zerg lose 200 minerals when an overlord dies? Maybe that's why they're UP. | ||
|
Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
| ||
|
asmo.0
Norway318 Posts
You pretty much just have to make an educated guess and gamble a little bit. Also, not to mention that you cant always get an overlord into position all all maps anyway... except for close pos by air shattered/meta, there's no way to get an ovie in position safely against terran before at least 40 supply. And maps where you cant always get it there against protoss either. | ||
|
CapnAmerica
United States508 Posts
| ||
|
Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
On March 20 2011 12:47 asmo.0 wrote: I may be mistaken, being a master zerg and all, but do people really sacc overlords before overlord speed often? I mean, the odds of seeing anything remotely of use w/o speed is below 10% unless the opponent doesnt check and doesnt build in a good position... You pretty much just have to make an educated guess and gamble a little bit. Also, not to mention that you cant always get an overlord into position all all maps anyway... except for close pos by air shattered/meta, there's no way to get an ovie in position safely against terran before at least 40 supply. And maps where you cant always get it there against protoss either. Are you kidding? A slow overlord coming in from the right angle can often spot key things. IdrA beat Minigun's 3gate blink stalker build by sending in a slow-verlord. The overlord is more vulnerable to being sniped pre-speed, but your opponent also has less units. Its less easy to spot Terran buildings as they can put them anywhere in their base (although most players don't spread their tech out like they should), but against Protoss you can usually make an educated guess at what their base layout is going to be like based on their first 3-4 pylons that your drone sees. | ||
|
morimacil
France921 Posts
It works most of the time, and when it doesnt, well you probably still gained a little more information anyway. You can also gamble a little, and make an educated guess, or poke at the front. Poking at the front is the same, it relies on your opponent having his units/buildings where you can see them, either by mistake, or because he doesnt care enough to make an effort. And its also not guaranteed to work, its also a bit of a gamble. All zerg scouting in the early game is terrible, and a gamble. Seeing 2 early gas followed by a stalker, you can know that its going to be either a stargate, a robo, DTs, a disguised 3gate expand, or a 4gate with a weird gas timing to throw you off. Saccing an overlord, hoping he doesnt move the stalker to kill it, and built his buildings close to the edge might seem silly.... But when the alternative to that is picking one of the above builds, crossing your fingers, and hoping you were right or you die.... Suddenly it seems a lot less silly  | ||
|
Lochat
United States270 Posts
On March 20 2011 11:39 Zergtastic wrote: Regarding the dollars, yes, you havent lost another 10 dollars. But you have been forced to earn another 10 dollars. So the total you have been forced to earn due to losing the initial 10 dollars is 20 dollars. Its almost as if you want to say making an additional overlord doesn't cost you anything, because you have it. Hell, I make a hatchery, I lose it, so I make another one. Because i made another hatchery, I dont need to consider it is 300 minerals? Im not trying to say that what you have spent the minerals on is useless, Im trying to acknowledge the fact that you HAVE spent that money. Wrong. It takes you back to the exact same spot. You need it for supply, but it doesn't raise you above the supply that the first overlord gave you. You wouldn't have needed it anyway if you didnt sac the overlord in the first place. Are...Are you kidding? Is this serious? I don't even... I don't even... Replacing something doesn't double the cost. I mean, I can't even fathom... my god... I built five overlords. One overlord was killed. I build one more overlord, going back up to five overlords. How much money did I spend on the initial five overlords. How much did I spend after one died and I built one more? Well, since you're trolling or...suffering from extremely poor ability to use mathematics/logic, to say the least, I'll do it for you. Five overlords: 500 minerals Five overlords, one dies, make another = 600 minerals. There you go. 100 more minerals if an overlord dies and you make another. Period. The fact that an overlord gives supply somehow confuses you so badly you think a unit costs twice as much means... look, I understand blatant insults isn't something TL tends to accept, but I will say this: If you get so confused over something so simple, perhaps it is better if you refrain from attempting to discuss strategies surrounding a complex game like SC2. Making such absurd posts by you (and the OP I believe, but that just reinforces my point) just completely derailed what was potentially a viable idea, albeit, one I don't think is worthwhile. | ||
|
Schnieder.sc2
United States71 Posts
| ||
|
Zergtastic
Australia81 Posts
On March 20 2011 13:52 Lochat wrote: Are...Are you kidding? Is this serious? I don't even... I don't even... Replacing something doesn't double the cost. I mean, I can't even fathom... my god... I built five overlords. One overlord was killed. I build one more overlord, going back up to five overlords. How much money did I spend on the initial five overlords. How much did I spend after one died and I built one more? Well, since you're trolling or...suffering from extremely poor ability to use mathematics/logic, to say the least, I'll do it for you. Five overlords: 500 minerals Five overlords, one dies, make another = 600 minerals. There you go. 100 more minerals if an overlord dies and you make another. Period. The fact that an overlord gives supply somehow confuses you so badly you think a unit costs twice as much means... look, I understand blatant insults isn't something TL tends to accept, but I will say this: If you get so confused over something so simple, perhaps it is better if you refrain from attempting to discuss strategies surrounding a complex game like SC2. Making such absurd posts by you (and the OP I believe, but that just reinforces my point) just completely derailed what was potentially a viable idea, albeit, one I don't think is worthwhile. Allow me to copy and paste the maths. One Overlord = 100 minerals. Overlords required to be made in order to overlord sac: One overlord to scout + one to replace. Two overlords = 200 minerals. Therefore, 200 minerals have been spent due to scouting. If you wish to say that two overlords cost 100 minerals, please, do go ahead. Edit: Actually, you pretty much agree with me anyway after saying that if an overlord dies you need to replace it, which makes it another 100 minerals spent. I find it funny how you argue that Im wrong by proving my point to be correct. | ||
|
whatthefat
United States918 Posts
As for the OP, I think it's an interesting idea. 6-8 minutes is a little late to scout protoss tech if they're one-basing though. | ||
|
Creegz
Canada354 Posts
| ||
|
lardlord
United States22 Posts
| ||
|
morimacil
France921 Posts
One Overlord = 100 minerals. Overlords required to be made in order to overlord sac: One overlord to scout + one to replace. Two overlords = 200 minerals. Well it seems that you cant use basic logic. Therefore, lets use your own logic to analyze the cost of scouting with an evo chamber. one hatchery (300 minerals) canceled, 225 minerals gotten back from cancel, plus the cost to replace the hatchery (making the new one at your natural) (costs another 300 minerals). Then the cost of the drone lost for making the evo chamber (50 minerals) plus the cost to replace that drone (50 minerals) and the cost of the evo chamber (75 minerals) plus the cost to replace it (75 minerals) Total cost when counting everything twice: 625 minerals for the scouting evo chamber, and 200 minerals for sacrificing an overlord. So as you can see, even with your terribly flawed logic of counting everything twice, the evo chamber is still more expensive than the overlord sacrifice. | ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
When BW TLers bashed on the starcraft 2 and the strategy forums, I always used to get defensive and criticize their elitism. I... I'm sorry. I had no idea... I promise, I will never commit that sin again. | ||
|
chaogui2
New Zealand31 Posts
On March 20 2011 14:10 Zergtastic wrote: If you wish to say that two overlords cost 100 minerals, please, do go ahead. At this point I'm quite sure you're just trolling but I'll try explain it like the others in case you arn't. You sac an overlord which causes you to lose 8 supply. You pay the cost of one replacement overlord providing 8 more supply hence the extra 100 minerals. You already had the overlord that was originally sacced and it had already been paid for. Therefore the supply you lose from the original overlord is fully replaced by the building for the replacement overlord costing 100 minerals. There is no place where you need to pay for the original overlord again, and no place where you lose two overlords. This reminds me of the hatch = 350 minerals vs hatch = 400 minerals threads. | ||
|
Clog
United States950 Posts
On March 20 2011 14:10 Zergtastic wrote: Allow me to copy and paste the maths. One Overlord = 100 minerals. Overlords required to be made in order to overlord sac: One overlord to scout + one to replace. Two overlords = 200 minerals. Therefore, 200 minerals have been spent due to scouting. If you wish to say that two overlords cost 100 minerals, please, do go ahead. Edit: Actually, you pretty much agree with me anyway after saying that if an overlord dies you need to replace it, which makes it another 100 minerals spent. I find it funny how you argue that Im wrong by proving my point to be correct. You are incorrect. Only one overlord dies, thus a loss of 100 minerals. Say you are at 32/34 supply. You send in your overlord to scout and it dies. You are now at 32/26 supply. You spend 100 minerals for a replacement overlord. You are now at 32/34 supply. You have spent a total of 100 minerals and are now in the same place you were before sacking the overlord (albeit the overlord is in your base instead of next to the opponent's) Overall cost: 100 minerals The original overlord cost does not count. This can be shown by the process above, or by the simple knowledge that you would have spent minerals on that overlord even had you not sacked it, since you need supply to build units in this game. | ||
| ||
