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Okay, you know what, I'll put it to you this way, because you can't escape this math this time:
You spend 75 on the cancelled hatcher + 75 on the evo chamber + 50 on the killer drone = 200 minerals.
Now. Let's spend 200 minerals the OTHER WAY! Let's make 2 overlords. Now let's sacrifice one of them. You now have 1 overlord more than you started, rather than 2, and you lost 100 minerals.
The difference? In the first example, after your evo chamber is destroyed, you have literally nothing. In the second example, you come out on top with 1 extra overlord, and that means 8 more supply!
So that's if those things were done at the same time.
But as we all know: each mineral is worth less in the impact of the game as the game continues. If I had an extra 400 minerals at the start of the game, I'd win every game. But 400 extra minerals 20 minutes into the game means nothing to me.
Reason I said that? Your 200 minerals are spent waay earlier than mine. So it "costs" more than mine.
So let's go back to the scoreboard:
-Your idea: Nothing left after the evo dies, made your investment much earlier in the game.
-Every freaking decent players idea: 1 Extra Overlord! 8 supply! Made investment at good time!
That's finite mathematics. Discrete math. There is one answer. This is the correct answer. Your answer is incorrect. Stop it.
And seriously, this needs closing before some hopeless gold league player reads this and starts poor habits.
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I think at this point, zergtastic has no choice but to keep going on with the charade. Going back now would look terrible.
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On March 20 2011 16:48 Zergtastic wrote:
Overlord saccing
One overlord = 100 minerals.
Overlords required to be made in order to overlord sac:
One overlord to scout + one to replace.
Two overlords = 200 minerals.
Therefore, 200 minerals have been spent due to scouting.
Sacrificed overlord supply = +8 - 8
Remade overlord supply = +8
Total overlord supply change = +8
bold-italic correction mine
You have to pick a starting point. In your logic, you start out assuming a starting point at which you have made neither of the two overlords. That's fine, but then you have to be consistent. From that starting point, you spend 200 on two overlords. You sac one. You now have one overlord, so you have spent 200 minerals are +8 in supply from your starting point.
edit: So, you have spent 200 minerals for scouting information AND +8 supply. The +8 supply costs 100 minerals, for the scouting info alone you have spent 100 minerals.
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On March 20 2011 08:35 whoBmyrice wrote:
One time zerg player used his scout drone to make hatch on my ramp (i play tos) and when he canceled, my probe was right next to him. I think he couldn't make evo due to me blocking him. He left the game right after that.
I lol'ed.
That reminds me of a game I obs'ed a while ago, some guy in chat channel was annoying, so another guy challenged him to a 1v1. The annoying guy (terran) wanted to do a planetray fortress rush in the protoss base. The protoss had a probe under the flying command center the whole time and decided to mothership rush him.
Lots of laugh occured.
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On March 20 2011 16:35 Polemarch wrote:More seriously; @Staboteur, that zvz mineral-line evo trick sounds interesting, particularly if you're going to be scouting anyway without going for an aggressive build. Seems like a lot of interesting variables like disrupting worker mining paths, long-lasting scouting information, the chance of killing drones (or hurting their mining time if they micro away), maybe keeping some of their zerglings occupied, etc. What made you stop doing this, just too expensive?
Not to hijack the thread, but people got less stupid.
I did it when I was silver league, and the standard response ZvZ to buildings in your base is to pull like 6 drones to try kill it, whatever it is. This made it hilariously cost-effective, because the time it takes for 6 drones to kill an evo chamber is a comical amount of mining time lost.
Then I got to gold league, and people there were less inclined to attack it with anything until their zerglings popped, meaning that for my early game 75 mineral + drone investment, I was getting to see how many zerglings they initially made, and taking one or maaaaaaybe two drones with me. Some people would explicitly try to NOT kill it, even going so far as to move their queen quite far from their hatchery (she'll try engage it if its in range) which had a disruptive effect. People that did this seemed to miss more injects, plus it provided me vision as long as it was alive.
Then I got to platinum, and for my early game 75 mineral + drone investment, I was getting to see how many zerglings they made and maaybe hurting one drone.
Basically, it comes down to being a fairly heavy investment at a time where you need minerals for more important things. If you 14 pool and do it after your pool, for one good luck getting it actually in his mineral line (in front of a building extractor works, though, too!), and for two you're delaying your queen or delaying a drone to do it.
I'm sure you could work it into an early pool build where you hit him with zerglings to accompany the broodlings, but I'm honestly not that big into straight cheese, so I never pursued it much.
(Though the most fun I had doing that was bringing three drones to his base, building three spine crawlers behind his base, then cancelling when he pulled all his drones to kill them, mineral walking two drones past his drones and building two evos side-by-side in his now-vacant mineral line. It probably wasn't anywhere near cost-efficient, but it sure as hell looked like it would suck to deal with!)
If you're looking for fun, stupid shit to do though, and are sub-diamond (like me! :D) try sending two drones out on a 1v1 map against protoss, and stealing both his gas. You shut down virtually everything he can do. and despite the early cost of two drones and 50 minerals, you remove virtually all early game threat, meaning you can drone like a beast afterwards. I suggest making sure he's not going to try kill you with zealots, though... and if he is, kill him with banelings.
You also destroy his ability to make sentries early game, meaning that you can hit a ling/baneling timing where he's got mostly zealots, virtually no sentries and only a few stalkers (or just a shitload of cannons), and crush him.
Or you could just play it straight, and laugh as all his tech is super late.
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You should also consider/include the lost mining minerals of the drone used to create the evo chamber since it could have been mining the whole time.
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Relax guys... You didn't even note the timings... The evo chamber loses you money earlier than the overlord scout. 250 minerals that early is a huge loss compared to 100 OR 200 later into the game.
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I am going to try to explain what logic failure broke down for Zergtastic and 400 mineral hatchery people. Is this a zerg thing? I suspect so as zergs think a lot of what things cost due to larvae and drones. However, this is a bit or a different problem.
There are 2 ways of examining value:
Assets:
1 Overlord
-1 Overlord (dies from scouting)
Net change: 0 minerals, -1 Overlord
Value of 1 Overlord: 100 minerals
Therefore, scouting costs 100 minerals.
OR
Replacement Cost Analysis:
1 Overlord dies (from scouting)
1 Overlord replaced: 100 minerals
Therefore, scouting costs 100 minerals.
Zergtastic is combining both asset and replacement cost.
You cannot combine these two analysis. Doing so will double count the value of overlords.
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On March 20 2011 18:14 35spike1 wrote:
Relax guys... You didn't even note the timings... The evo chamber loses you money earlier than the overlord scout. 250 minerals that early is a huge loss compared to 100 OR 200 later into the game.
250 minerals?
I'm pretty sure you use one of the 6 drones you spawn with to do this
and hatch cancel costs 75 minerals, and evo chamber costs 75 minerals
and since youre using one of the drones you spawn with
it only costs 150 minerals.
k?
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Seeing as this zergtastic guy and the OP have different names i suppose this is some ridiculous trollbait. I find it hard to believe you could actually find two people who would support this "saccing an ovie is 200 minerals" idea.
If you have an overlord and then lose it, you lose 100 minerals, right? Since the overlord is dead it obviously doesn't do any good.
You then replace that overlord. As long as the replacement overlord is alive, you have NOT lost these 100 minerals, they are still in use, flying around healthily and increasing your supply by 8. Makes sense, right?
It costs 2400 minerals to get to 200 supply. Say you have all your 24 ovies in a nice little bunch, and your opponents phoenix kill every single one of them. How much do you have to spend to get back to 200? That's right, 2400 minerals. NOT FUCKING 4800. Since there is mathematically no difference in a scouting ovie dying and one just getting killed this should make perfect sense.
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Zergtastic... let's say there is another unit called Scouting_Overlord, that costs 100 and is simply an Overlord unit that does not give supply.
I build one Scouting_Overlord for 100 minerals.
I send it on a mission to scout the enemy base.
It dies.
That cost me 100 minerals.
There's really not a lot of "maths" involved.
Now just think of the Overlord you choose to scout with as the pretend-unit.
When the Overlord that "drew the short stick" (as Tasteless might say) dies while scouting, I lose my 100 mineral investment. I did not rely on this overlord to provide me with supply, so the loss of 8 supply is completely irrelevant to the argument. I continued to make overlords in anticipation of my scouting overlord's death, playing as if it did not provide me with supply and therefore always keeping a +8 supply over my current food count.
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It's just absurd at this point. I hope I'm being trolled, because this is to math what creationism is to biology.
Hehe I laughed. I think it's quite a good analogy, both are psychological problems. At this point he doesn't want to admit he was wrong after defending his idea so much.
Zergtastic, it's alright, just admit you were wrong and everybody will respect you more. We'll still love you 
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Zergtastic is probably just a really good troll, cause I cant imagine he really doesn't get this. Im going to try to make this far less complicated than some others have....
(pretending OL's give 1 supply for people....not good with numbers)
I have 1000 minerals and and have 0 supply
I buy and overlord - 900 min 1 supply
Overlord dies - 900 min 0 supply
I build Overlord - 800 min 1 supply
-200 min & +1 supply from starting point
+1 supply is worth 100 minerals, but it cost us 200 thanks to the OL death.
Most of the time -200 + 100 = -100 therefore the net loss was 100 min.
If this is unclear only god can help you 
In conclusion, OL scouting is half as expensive at a time when it is even more affordable.
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On March 20 2011 17:21 Staboteur wrote:
I did it when I was silver league, and the standard response ZvZ to buildings in your base is to pull like 6 drones to try kill it, whatever it is. This made it hilariously cost-effective, because the time it takes for 6 drones to kill an evo chamber is a comical amount of mining time lost.
Then I got to gold league, and people there were less inclined to attack it with anything until their zerglings popped, meaning that for my early game 75 mineral + drone investment, I was getting to see how many zerglings they initially made, and taking one or maaaaaaybe two drones with me. Some people would explicitly try to NOT kill it, even going so far as to move their queen quite far from their hatchery (she'll try engage it if its in range) which had a disruptive effect. People that did this seemed to miss more injects, plus it provided me vision as long as it was alive.
Then I got to platinum, and for my early game 75 mineral + drone investment, I was getting to see how many zerglings they made and maaybe hurting one drone.
Basically, it comes down to being a fairly heavy investment at a time where you need minerals for more important things. If you 14 pool and do it after your pool, for one good luck getting it actually in his mineral line (in front of a building extractor works, though, too!), and for two you're delaying your queen or delaying a drone to do it.
I'm sure you could work it into an early pool build where you hit him with zerglings to accompany the broodlings, but I'm honestly not that big into straight cheese, so I never pursued it much.
Awesome, thanks for the detailed answer! The patterns of peoples' responses are funny.
I considered working it into a rush build but I can't see it being a more effective use of minerals & drone than just building a spine crawler. Unless there's a map where you can fully wall off a spine crawler with 1-2 evos.
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Okay I didn't want this to exactly be a discussion of the math 
Whatever the verdict is , (majority say the sac ov is only -100) please lets not move away from the actual strategy discussion.
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I think it's fun and creative
But in that first replay: Why didnt you just keep killing off his base?!? 0_o I actually thought that you would lose for a second there.
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On March 21 2011 00:13 JTouche wrote:Okay I didn't want this to exactly be a discussion of the math Whatever the verdict is , (majority say the sac ov is only -100) please lets not move away from the actual strategy discussion.
J: The reason we have to rehearse basic math is the same reason there ISN'T actual strategy discussion worthy material in this thread.
Bottom line: His method costs a lot more, his cost comes earlier than the standard and therefore takes a harder hit on your own economy, and accomplishes everything the standard way does.
There is 100%, NO REASON, to do what he is suggesting. That's it. That's the end of discussion. That's why I and others want this thread closed. We all got drawn in by a flashy title thinking "Oh man, is there some cool way to use broodlings effectively that we haven't thought about?", only to see a guy trying to convince the world saccing an overlord costs 200 minerals.
Just use your head if you think there is. Would you rather spend 200 minerals on a "scout" really freaking early in the game that can only MAYBE make it to the back of the base to actually scout hidden Tech if the protoss is an idiot enough to kill the chamber? Or would you rather invest 100 minerals 5:45 into the game, which requires 0 stupidity on the side of the toss and effectively does the same thing? That's it. That's the entire argument. There's no more wiggle room. Every freaking person here that shows that they know basic starcraft (diamond+) has agreed that this idea is 100% horrible.
Anyone who decides to blindly accept the horrible logic of the OP and starts evo chambering protoss bases for "scouting" best of luck to you. I hope you get incredibly great at this game to make up for how big of an investment you're making early on in the game for "scouting".
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On March 20 2011 05:45 TNine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 05:01 JTouche wrote:that's not how that works. the replacement overlord is why it costs you 100 minerals to scout. you always need overload, so you can't include the initial cost of an overlord to say scouting costs 200 minerals.
Yes, you can. The reason being that with this alternative you DONT lose the overlord. And with the standard Ov Sac you MUST REPLACE it. Bringing you up to 100 minerals for replacing your OL... Let's put it this way. You are at 26/28, and if you sac an overlord, you will need to spend 200 minerals to get up to 26/35. If you don't sac an overlord, it will cost you 100 minerals. 200-100=100 extra minerals lost. Since you already have the OL, the OL sacced is actually "free" until you replace it, then it costs 100 minerals.
This is true. This seems to be the same syndrome zergs get when talking about cost of buildings. Buildings cost only 50 minerals more due to replacing the drone, NOT 100. It's VERY simple logic if you just stop and think about it.
Lemme try to explain it a different way (not that anyone will listen anyways).
Say you decide to not scout whatsoever, thus you spend 0 minerals from units lost in scouting. Note you have overlords already since they are necessary for supply. You do not need to replace any because your supply cap did not drop.
Now you DO decide to sac an ovie. This ovie was already in your base, you did not specifically make it to scout, you made it for supply cap. Thus, when it dies, you spend only 100 to get back to EXACTLY WHERE YOU WHERE BEFORE YOU SCOUTED.
Well now if you say "oh I made that ovie specifically to scout, so now it costs 200!", it still costs 100 because you have no need to replace that ovie since it was not necessary for your supply cap.
Think about, there's no need to "replace" a unit if you didn't need it in the first place, and if you do need to "replace" it, that means you needed it beforehand, meaning it's cost is necessary regardless of you scouting or not (which is the case here, you NEED to build it in the first place).
Sigh, I don't understand why this is so complicated.
EDIT: In retrospect, I'm 95% sure this is just a troll.
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as many have described how the 200 cost for saccing one overlord math just isn't correct much better than me I tried to delete this message but I'm seemingly to stupid to find any such button .
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EPT
