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Greetings TL!
I'm JTouche, a low ~3200 Master Z aspiring to reach Gmaster league eventually. Today I'm very pleased to share something new with the Zerg community.
Zerg sometimes has difficulty scouting around the ~6 mark. If an opponent has good sight of his base and denies your overlord any information, what could you do?
The worst position a Z player can be in is to try and defend what he is unaware of.
So I propose this tactic. (Only vs. ZvP + ZvT)
With your initial scouting drone, don't gas steal. Instead wait until he field's one ranged unit.
Once he does, throw down a hatchery, and than cancel into an evolution chamber on the creep that forms from the hatchery.
Evolution chambers build quickly, so he'll need a good amount of army to take it down which he probably won't have. Once it completes you'll have vision of some of his base.
Here is the best part.
Edit: Around 4-6 minutes is when your evo chamber dies on it's own (from lack of creep) or gets killed by your opponent, the broodlings are free to scout his ENTIRE base.
Now lets compare / contrasts the pro's and con's.
Cons:
-You lose a total of ~200 minerals as oppose to the 100 mineral scouting overlord sacrifice INITIALLY.
Edit: Ignore the math if not exactly correct, please just focus on the application of this technique
_
*When you build the replacement overlord you are dead even at your mineral loss of 200[/u].*
*If you build the overlord prior to sacrificing it, you've spent the 200 earlier than you would have with he evo technique*
Pros:
-You save an overlord for scouting later in the game.
-You don't lose any supply.
-You get scouting of his entire main.
-If he hasn't thrown down his tech buildings, you've delayed them significantly.
-You may also kill an out of position sentry/marine/workers if you choose to.
I hope my fellow swarm find this helpful and try it out. I would really like to have some top caliber players experiment too and find out if this is a viable tactic.
Here are two replays. Although not the best example, I just wanted to show you the tactic in action.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/151910-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/151911-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
FOR THE SWARM! :D
Edit: Please at least watch the replay or attempt it yourself before you just knock it down, thanks.
Edit: Here's another replay! Evo goes down at 4:00 on Typhoon Peaks (A map where it's IMPOSSIBLE to overlord scout in time when spawned cross positions) and broodlings spawn ~5:30.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/152631-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch
The timing is actually earlier than I stated in my original post. I apologize, but check it out !
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I like it, I haven't watched the replays yet but I'm guessing you just spread them out over the base? Couldn't you build it where they want their cybercore to go down and just cheese the hell out of them?
Glad to see people thinking outside the box about scouting midgame, it is refreshing.
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Proxy Evo chamber's aren't new. Players like Catz have done it to prevent ramp blocking and cheese as well as other applications. Using them for "scouting" is quite ludicrous and really you might as well cheese with them. It's not a reliable means of scouting which means you could potentially still have to sac an overlord and lose 200 mins from this little trick. Not to mention you are losing 200 minerals far earlier than you would lose your sacced overlord which further slows down your entire opening. A quick search brings up 2 threads about proxy Evos
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146838
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146895
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Although not very useful from my gold point of view (the ovie sac is better imo, just 100 minerals better...), I like the try. High level Zergs definitely needs new ideas.
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Damn, looks very appealing, you slow down 3g expo, maybe get a runby (Below masters  ), AND broodlings can get some good info instead of saccin speed ovvie.
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On March 20 2011 02:19 Demonace34 wrote:
I like it, I haven't watched the replays yet but I'm guessing you just spread them out over the base? Couldn't you build it where they want their cybercore to go down and just cheese the hell out of them?
Glad to see people thinking outside the box about scouting midgame, it is refreshing.
That would certainly be interesting, having an evo chamber next to the gateway.
I really like the idea of using the broodlings to scout, really interesting way to do things
Could broodlings also be used to kill the mineral line? I don't know any numbers offhand but I'm sure the broodlings spawning from an evo chamber should be enough to kill 3-4ish workers, or at least force them to kill workers away from the broodlings, temporarily stopping the player from mining.
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Well I could see some potential in placing an evo chamber near a location that might be hard for an overlord to get vision of and in doing so forcing your opponent to place tech buildings in places where denying overlords might be harder.
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If you're willing to lose 200 minerals, scouting with two overlords at once would be more efficient.
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1: its more expensive than scouting with an overlord
2: you need a higher upfront investment, and you need to make it faster (plus you need 300 in the bank for the hatch)
3: it relies on your opponent helping you out by killing it. (if he doesnt, then you will be able to scout 3 minutes and 30 seconds later, which in your replay example, would be at the 8:20 mark, a bit too late to scout for a 4gate.
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On March 20 2011 02:22 Numy wrote:
Proxy Evo chamber's aren't new. Players like Catz have done it to prevent ramp blocking and cheese as well as other applications. Using them for "scouting" is quite ludicrous and really you might as well cheese with them. It's not a reliable means of scouting which means you could potentially still have to sac an overlord and lose 200 mins from this little trick. Not to mention you are losing 200 minerals far earlier than you would lose your sacced overlord which further slows down your entire opening.
No, I'm not attempting to find a new cheese but an alternative to sac'ing overlords that sometimes never find out anything. It is reliable since you can literally scout the entire main as oppose to an overlord scouting only most of it.
Could broodlings also be used to kill the mineral line? I don't know any numbers offhand but I'm sure the broodlings spawning from an evo chamber should be enough to kill 3-4ish workers, or at least force them to kill workers away from the broodlings, temporarily stopping the player from mining.
Broodlings could kill 2-3 workers if they don't micro them away.
If you're willing to lose 200 minerals, scouting with two overlords at once would be more efficient.
Really? Losing 16 supply and 200+ more minerals to build those overlords again IS more efficient? Can you explain the logic to me?
1: its more expensive than scouting with an overlord
2: you need a higher upfront investment, and you need to make it faster (plus you need 300 in the bank for the hatch)
3: it relies on your opponent helping you out by killing it. (if he doesnt, then you will be able to scout 3 minutes and 30 seconds later, which in your replay example, would be at the 8:20 mark, a bit too late to scout for a 4gate.
1 - Initially it is more expensive than scouting an overlord but when you build the replacement overlord you are dead even /w this technique.
2 - You can delay your expo 15-20 seconds to utilize this technique. It's a slight detriment but not gamebreaking in any way.
3 - You can anticipate a 4gate from poking and scouting army composition. At 8:20 you will be able to scout the entire base of what tech he chose guaranteed.
PROBLEM? :D
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The real problem is that you are giving up 200 minerals at a time where 200 minerals means the world versus giving up 100 (or 200) minerals when it starts to approach trivial.
If you had to pay the 200 minerals at the time you would be OL scouting it'd be kind of worth it.
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This is a clever idea, however I don't think its viable in practice. First, as you said, you can anticipate what the protoss is doing by other means, and 8 minutes is too late to scout anything you would want to scout for. What I and I think most others have much more trouble with is scouting terrans, but their first marine is out pretty early and you can't afford to bank up to 300 mins (and dump 200 of them) that early.
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On March 20 2011 04:39 JTouche wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 02:22 Numy wrote:
Proxy Evo chamber's aren't new. Players like Catz have done it to prevent ramp blocking and cheese as well as other applications. Using them for "scouting" is quite ludicrous and really you might as well cheese with them. It's not a reliable means of scouting which means you could potentially still have to sac an overlord and lose 200 mins from this little trick. Not to mention you are losing 200 minerals far earlier than you would lose your sacced overlord which further slows down your entire opening. No, I'm not attempting to find a new cheese but an alternative to sac'ing overlords that sometimes never find out anything. It is reliable since you can literally scout the entire main as oppose to an overlord scouting only most of it. Show nested quote +Could broodlings also be used to kill the mineral line? I don't know any numbers offhand but I'm sure the broodlings spawning from an evo chamber should be enough to kill 3-4ish workers, or at least force them to kill workers away from the broodlings, temporarily stopping the player from mining. Broodlings could kill 2-3 workers if they don't micro them away. Show nested quote +If you're willing to lose 200 minerals, scouting with two overlords at once would be more efficient. Really? Losing 16 supply and 200+ more minerals to build those overlords again IS more efficient? Can you explain the logic to me? Show nested quote +1: its more expensive than scouting with an overlord
2: you need a higher upfront investment, and you need to make it faster (plus you need 300 in the bank for the hatch)
3: it relies on your opponent helping you out by killing it. (if he doesnt, then you will be able to scout 3 minutes and 30 seconds later, which in your replay example, would be at the 8:20 mark, a bit too late to scout for a 4gate. 1 - Initially it is more expensive than scouting an overlord but when you build the replacement overlord you are dead even /w this technique.
that's not how that works. the replacement overlord is why it costs you 100 minerals to scout. you always need overload, so you can't include the initial cost of an overlord to say scouting costs 200 minerals.
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that's not how that works. the replacement overlord is why it costs you 100 minerals to scout. you always need overload, so you can't include the initial cost of an overlord to say scouting costs 200 minerals.
Yes, you can. The reason being that with this alternative you DONT lose the overlord. And with the standard Ov Sac you MUST REPLACE it.
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On March 20 2011 05:01 JTouche wrote:Show nested quote +that's not how that works. the replacement overlord is why it costs you 100 minerals to scout. you always need overload, so you can't include the initial cost of an overlord to say scouting costs 200 minerals.
Yes, you can. The reason being that with this alternative you DONT lose the overlord. And with the standard Ov Sac you MUST REPLACE it.
Bringing you up to 100 minerals for replacing your OL...
Let's put it this way. You are at 26/28, and if you sac an overlord, you will need to spend 200 minerals to get up to 26/35. If you don't sac an overlord, it will cost you 100 minerals. 200-100=100 extra minerals lost.
Since you already have the OL, the OL sacced is actually "free" until you replace it, then it costs 100 minerals.
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Lol. Might as well go for the workers though
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Well, here's the thing. Why would you want to expend 200 minerals in lump sum, at a very early part of the game?
Maybe I don't understand what you're saying, but I'm guessing you're going to want to put down a hatch before the stalker pops, right? Well, if that's true, then you have 300 minerals to throw away at that point. Aren't you delaying an expansion to do this?
Could work very well vs. protoss, though.
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On March 20 2011 05:01 JTouche wrote:Show nested quote +that's not how that works. the replacement overlord is why it costs you 100 minerals to scout. you always need overload, so you can't include the initial cost of an overlord to say scouting costs 200 minerals.
Yes, you can. The reason being that with this alternative you DONT lose the overlord. And with the standard Ov Sac you MUST REPLACE it.
And the replacement ovie cost 100minerals. No more, no less. 100 Minerals.
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On March 20 2011 05:01 JTouche wrote:Show nested quote +that's not how that works. the replacement overlord is why it costs you 100 minerals to scout. you always need overload, so you can't include the initial cost of an overlord to say scouting costs 200 minerals.
Yes, you can. The reason being that with this alternative you DONT lose the overlord. And with the standard Ov Sac you MUST REPLACE it.
Losing one overlord does not cost 200 minerals. Ever.
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You say it dies at around 6-8 minutes? If they spawned at 6 minutes it would be fine but 8 minutes is far too late. The normal overlord sac time is 4;45 - 5 minutes, around the time toss will have put down 2 or 3 gates depending on whether they 3 gate FE or 4 gate. For terran, it is about the time when they have factory finished and starport building or a CC building in-base.
If the evo dies at 6 minutes, it could be possible for the P/T to have an army standing at the evo that is able to kill all the broodlings instantly before they are able to run around. Since both P and T wall off vs Z, they don't need any units at the ramp (save from 1 zealot) so the rest is able to kill the broodlings. Assuming 3 out of 6 survive, they are quite fast but as mentioned before, anything later than 6 minutes it will be too late to scout for cheeses and the broodlings do die quite quickly.
Also, waiting for 300 minerals off a 15hatch or 14p-21expand that early will be quite damaging to your economy. If i'm not mistaken, you recieve 210 back from the hatchery cancel, then spend 75 on an evo. Thats 90+75=165 minerals plus the waiting time for the initial 300 minerals.
As much as it is a great idea, I just don't think it will be effective to scout with.
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EPT
