EPTZerg's Unsung Hero, The Broodling! - Page 2
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azn_dude1
162 Posts
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Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On March 20 2011 04:39 JTouche wrote: No, I'm not attempting to find a new cheese but an alternative to sac'ing overlords that sometimes never find out anything. It is reliable since you can literally scout the entire main as oppose to an overlord scouting only most of it. It's unreliable because you can only scout when the broodlings pop and no other time. You can't dictate the time you want to scout so you could scout after you needed the information or before there was information to be seen. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On March 20 2011 04:39 JTouche wrote: Really? Losing 16 supply and 200+ more minerals to build those overlords again IS more efficient? Can you explain the logic to me? 1 - Initially it is more expensive than scouting an overlord but when you build the replacement overlord you are dead even /w this technique. 2 - You can delay your expo 15-20 seconds to utilize this technique. It's a slight detriment but not gamebreaking in any way. Making the evo chamber in their base costs: 90 minerals (from hatch cancel) + 75 minerals (from building an evo chamber) + 50 minerals and a larva (from sacrificing your initial scouting drone) Total cost:1 larva, 215 minerals This cost is money that you need to pay upfront, at the 4:50 mark. So that can as you mention, delay your expo, or delay whatever else you were going to build. Compare that with scouting with 2 overlords: You build 2 replacement overlords, and sac 2 existing ones. Cost: 2 larva, and 200 minerals. This is money that you pay when you scout, so around the 5-5:30 minute mark. Thus any delay in your build arrives significantly later, and since at that point, you have a higher income, the delay is smaller. 3 - You can anticipate a 4gate from poking and scouting army composition. At 8:20 you will be able to scout the entire base of what tech he chose guaranteed. PROBLEM? :D Yes, you can anticipate a 4gate in other ways. But you really want to scout his base at around the time a 4gate would arrive. That way, you get to know if its a 4gate, if its a 3gate expand, or if hes going for tech. Scouting all of his base at the 8:20 mark sounds great, in theory. But at that point, you will have to already have dealt with his 4gate, he will already have 3gate expanded, or you will have DTs/phoenixes in your base. Thus scouting at that point is fairly useless. Even against something like a forge FE, by the 8:20 mark, a void ray will already be in your base. Its great to be able to scout, and see everything. But the thing is, usually, you want to scout for a specific reason. For example, suiciding an overlord, seeing the stargate almost done, and making a hydra den, or more queens, thats nice. Having void rays in your base, and then having the evo chamber die, and seeing that oh! he made a stargate!, is much less useful. Sure, you get to see the fact that he made a stargate. I guess now you know that he didnt proxy the stargate, its actually in his base. Its information, its nice. But its not the critical information you want from early scouting, its useless information. | ||
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whoBmyrice
United States25 Posts
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Vegalive
United States96 Posts
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NoisyNinja
United States991 Posts
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
In ZvZ, I used to do this and drop the evo chamber IN their mineral line (which you can't do in ZvP or ZvT due to being unable to build a hatch near minerals) and if I boxed half the broodlings onto one drone and half onto another, I could kill two of his drones. and slightly injure a third, if I recall correctly. Keep in mind this is from INSIDE his mineral line. In ZvP or ZvT you'd be much further away. I'd be surprised if you consistently got more than one probe/scv. | ||
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terranmoccasin
United States74 Posts
Zerg players that I have started facing are doing really tricky scouting techniques such as sacking the overlord at about 4:30. When my 1 sentry or stalker walks over to kill it, he sends a couple lings to attack my zealot and mineral-clicks into my base with a drone. Unless I am VERY lucky with my structure placement, my tech building gets scouted more than 75% of the time. | ||
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djdoodoo
United Kingdom192 Posts
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djdoodoo
United Kingdom192 Posts
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Lochat
United States270 Posts
On March 20 2011 05:01 JTouche wrote: Yes, you can. The reason being that with this alternative you DONT lose the overlord. And with the standard Ov Sac you MUST REPLACE it. Dude... just... don't yell at people because you're not understanding extremely basic math. If you make an overlord and send it to scout and don't intend or plan on using it for supply, it costs 100 minerals. If you make an overlord and position it to scout later and use the supply until you're ready to sac it, it only costs 100 minerals *and it useful for the duration you use it for supply* I'm not sure where you come up with this magical 200 number because you need to "replace" it. You don't replace it, you willingly sacrifice the supply it gives. The fact you make more later doesn't somehow magically increase the cost of the one unit you made. | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
Once i've seen it used in combination with a fast baneling nest and pool for a bust. He built it in a position which blocked my usual wall in so i had to wall around it (which was obviously fragile) that almost won him the game. Frankly if you want to waste 200 minerals to scout sac 2 ovis at the same time. That way you are guaranteed to see almost his entire main and you can delay the cost until the 5min mark. Spending 200 on a proxy evo chamber at the time where you should either be fast expanding or building a pool and saving for a FE really is a gamebreaker, you'll be so far behind all that scouting is worthless. | ||
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Zergtastic
Australia81 Posts
The Maths + Show Spoiler + The minerals spent due to scouting for each option: Overlord saccing One overlord = 100 minerals. Overlords required to be made in order to overlord sac: One overlord to scout + one to replace. Two overlords = 200 minerals. Therefore, 200 minerals have been spent due to scouting. Evo chamber scouting Drone = 50 minerals Evo chamber = 75 minerals Minerals lost from making then cancelling a hatchery = 300/4 = 75 50 + 75 + 75 = 200 minerals in total Cost to replace the drone = 50 minerals 200 + 50 = 250 minerals Therefore, 250 minerals have been spent due to scouting. Conclusion The evo chamber scout only costs 50 minerals more in total compared to the overlord scouting. We have to look at the differences between the methods of scouting to determine which is the better way, instead of how much each costs. 50 minerals is a very small difference for what can be argued is a better way to scout. The Differences + Show Spoiler + Advantages of saccing overlords: - You choose when to scout - You can go over buildings - You can come from any angle into the base that you want Disadvantages of saccing overlords: - You can get supply blocked - You might be denied scouting completely if your opponent predicts the angle of approach - Overlords are slow - You don't get the chance to see everything in their base, if they have units that can attack air. Advantages of evo chamber scouting: - Broodlings are fast - The evo chamber itself shows an area, before broodlings even spawn - Broodlings can kill units, if they do 50 minerals damage to your opponent, it is equal cost to overlord scouting. - Broodlings if micro'd correctly can scout a larger distance of a base than an overlord - No chance of being supply blocked by using this method - Has almost no chance of giving 0% scouting of your opponents base, due to evo chamber giving sight. Disadvantages of evo chamber scouting - The evo chamber cannot scout whenever you want it to, it is either a set time or when your opponent kills it. - Broodlings are weak, can be killed easily after evo chamber dies. - If your opponent leaves it, they can still do rushes before it even dies and gives scouting (e.g. 4gate), and leave you with no scouting at all achieved (apart from the evo chamber's sight) - Once the opponent walls off and you have no drones or evo chambers placed behind the walloff, this method becomes impossible for scouting in their base (So, its only viable earlygame) Conclusion If you can set the evo chamber to die at a certain time that you wish, by timing it properly, then you can achieve some very effective scouting, with the chance for damage. Unfortunately, this scouting method has a fair few variables that can cause it to be denied or ineffective. But if you compare it to the overlord saccing, that also has variables that can cause it to be completely denied. Overall Conclusion + Show Spoiler + It really just depends what you prefer to do. But you DO have to ensure that you can time the evo chamber correctly so that it doesn't effect your build massively and also will scout at an effective time. The differences are almost negliable in my opinion. If you think evo chamber scouting is more effective, gives you results more often than overlord scouting or is just more fun, then why not do it? One thing that can be discussed is the small differences in placement, such as placing it on top of a ramp to disrupt a walloff or in the middle of a base to give a better view of what your opponent is doing. Personally, I dont like the fact that you dont get complete control over when the broodling scouting occurs. But if timed correctly, it doesn't make a huge difference either way. But Im proved wrong by a clever post. On March 20 2011 11:41 moxie wrote: If you guys are worried about getting a scout a little too late, then you could place the evo chamber at the choke where your lings could help kill it. This gets you the benefit of killing a marine or zealot with broodlings + lings, and having at least one ling leftover to do the scouting. Well, replace the word "choke" with ramp and also keep in mind you dont know how many lings will be leftover to do the scouting, if you attack the evo chamber with all of them. Sorry if this conclusion doesn't seem well rounded, but this is a kinda disputable issue even after looking at all of the obvious variables. The best way to test both of these would probably be from actual practical testing, in-game. Dont make my post make up your mind instantly, work it out for yourself. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On March 20 2011 11:02 Zergtastic wrote: I dont get how everyone doesn't get the maths behind this. 1 overlord = 100 minerals. One overlord dies, you lose 100 minerals worth of units from the initial cost of it. As a result, you need to make another overlord, which is 100 minerals. That makes 200 minerals. If you are pointing out how the second overlord is still in use so its 100 minerals lost only, JTouche is talking about the minerals lost due to scouting. The second overlord you make because of your scouting, and it is a loss of 200 minerals because of that. On top of that, the second overlord will not get you further ahead than in the evo chamber scout, it'll just get you to the exact same scenario. If both methods don't affect your supply changing when comparing the start to the end and they both require you spend the same amount, then ITS THE SAME. For those of you who are saying 200 minerals is 2 sacced ovies, no, thats 400 minerals. You will have to rebuild 2 more overlords in order to get the supply back to where you want it to, so thats 400 minerals spent due to scouting. You don't get it because you're wrong. It's of course 100 minerals for one lost scouting ovie. If you don't understand then look at your "ovie budget" in 2 scenarios, one where you sacrifice an overlord and one where you don't. The difference will be 100. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
One overlord dies, you lose 100 minerals worth of units from the initial cost of it. As a result, you need to make another overlord, which is 100 minerals. That makes 200 minerals. You pay 200 minerals, yes. For that cost, you get: 1 dead overlord (sacrificed) and 1 alive overlord (worth 100 minerals). Thus you lose 100 minerals only. The rest, is 100 minerals that is spent on an overlord, that you need for supply, and would have needed anyway. Think about it differently if you want: if you sacrifice an overlord, how much extra money do you need to have in order to be in exactly the same spot as before? 100 minerals (to rebuild it). If you lose something, and replace it, you havent lost more because you replace it. If you have 10 dollars in your wallet, and you lose them, it doesnt cost you 20 dollars, because you lost 10, and had to get another 10 to replace them. If you lose 10 dollars, you lost 10 dollars, no more, no less. | ||
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Zergtastic
Australia81 Posts
On March 20 2011 11:15 morimacil wrote: Think about it differently if you want: if you sacrifice an overlord, how much extra money do you need to have in order to be in exactly the same spot as before? 100 minerals (to rebuild it). If you lose something, and replace it, you havent lost more because you replace it. If you have 10 dollars in your wallet, and you lose them, it doesnt cost you 20 dollars, because you lost 10, and had to get another 10 to replace them. If you lose 10 dollars, you lost 10 dollars, no more, no less. Regarding the dollars, yes, you havent lost another 10 dollars. But you have been forced to earn another 10 dollars. So the total you have been forced to earn due to losing the initial 10 dollars is 20 dollars. Its almost as if you want to say making an additional overlord doesn't cost you anything, because you have it. Hell, I make a hatchery, I lose it, so I make another one. Because i made another hatchery, I dont need to consider it is 300 minerals? Im not trying to say that what you have spent the minerals on is useless, Im trying to acknowledge the fact that you HAVE spent that money. On March 20 2011 11:15 morimacil wrote: For that cost, you get: 1 dead overlord (sacrificed) and 1 alive overlord (worth 100 minerals). Thus you lose 100 minerals only. The rest, is 100 minerals that is spent on an overlord, that you need for supply, and would have needed anyway. Wrong. It takes you back to the exact same spot. You need it for supply, but it doesn't raise you above the supply that the first overlord gave you. You wouldn't have needed it anyway if you didnt sac the overlord in the first place. | ||
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moxie
United States17 Posts
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solistus
United States172 Posts
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