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underdawg
United States399 Posts
if you prepared for this and have an extra OL, you didn't really lose supply. you built an extra OL (+supply), then you lost it (-supply). it's like saying building a scouting depot at an expo is sacrificing supply (though i still think building a bunker there is better for max salvage) | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
You lose less money if you sac an overlord, but you don't gain any information... since most people aren't bad and won't let you fly through their base. You're lucky if he doesn't have marines patrolling all around the base preventing you from gaining any information whatsoever. With his strategy, the idea is that you gain information... I'd rather lose 250 minerals and know I can drone up or stop an all in than know nothing with means death in all close position or 1v1 scenarios. I don't want to have to rush to Lair just because he might making banshees. I don't want to get roaches just because he might be making hellions. I don't get an extra evo for spores...You get the idea? The mineral cost enables you to put your money in the right place in order to stop whatever they are doing. In my opinion you'll probably end up saving a ton of money and be generally safer. I'll have to try it though, to see if it really effectively scouts. I don't think I would use this in 4p cross-position scenarios, just because that doesn't favor 1 base play and I usually have time to react. For Close position on Shattered Temple aka Steppes of War v2, this could be pretty useful. I think it's a good idea depending on the timings. Steer away from the whole math behind it and factor in the fact that you actually know what he's doing. SACKING AN OV GETS YOU NO INFO BEYOND PLATINUM LEAGUE so forget it. It's a case of Information, vs no information. With that in mind, do you think it's worth it? Oh yeah also, I think this applies mainly vs T because they have such of wide variety of 1 base play, that are all easy to stop if you know they are coming (ie hellion drop, 2 port banshee, cloak banshee, blue flame expand, maurauder hellion, marine tank ect ect ect). I don't think you can really know what playing vs a 1 basing terran feels like as Zerg unless you play zerg. Basically, I'd give almost anything to know whats up because if I prepare for every possible scenario and he just expands, I lost. If i don't rush to lair and he goes cloak banshee, I lost. There's so many ways you can lose and knowing what he is doing lets you be as cost effective as zerg can be so I think it's worth it. | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On March 20 2011 04:39 JTouche wrote: PROBLEM? :D Yeah. You say that he's not going to have enough to kill the evo. That's true, when the first marine or whatever comes out. But what stops him from killing it before he starts his tech? I just don't see the terran player letting that thing sit in his base until the 8 minute mark. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On March 21 2011 01:46 Steel wrote: I like how everybody is arguing over how much each scenario cost. You lose less money if you sac an overlord, but you don't gain any information... since most people aren't bad and won't let you fly through their base. You're lucky if he doesn't have marines patrolling all around the base preventing you from gaining any information whatsoever. With his strategy, the idea is that you gain information... I'd rather lose 250 minerals and know I can drone up or stop an all in than know nothing with means death in all close position or 1v1 scenarios. I don't want to have to rush to Lair just because he might making banshees. I don't want to get roaches just because he might be making hellions. I don't get an extra evo for spores...You get the idea? The mineral cost enables you to put your money in the right place in order to stop whatever they are doing. In my opinion you'll probably end up saving a ton of money and be generally safer. I'll have to try it though, to see if it really effectively scouts. I don't think I would use this in 4p cross-position scenarios, just because that doesn't favor 1 base play and I usually have time to react. For Close position on Shattered Temple aka Steppes of War v2, this could be pretty useful. I think it's a good idea depending on the timings. Steer away from the whole math behind it and factor in the fact that you actually know what he's doing. SACKING AN OV GETS YOU NO INFO BEYOND PLATINUM LEAGUE so forget it. It's a case of Information, vs no information. With that in mind, do you think it's worth it? Oh yeah also, I think this applies mainly vs T because they have such of wide variety of 1 base play, that are all easy to stop if you know they are coming (ie hellion drop, 2 port banshee, cloak banshee, blue flame expand, maurauder hellion, marine tank ect ect ect). I don't think you can really know what playing vs a 1 basing terran feels like as Zerg unless you play zerg. Basically, I'd give almost anything to know whats up because if I prepare for every possible scenario and he just expands, I lost. If i don't rush to lair and he goes cloak banshee, I lost. There's so many ways you can lose and knowing what he is doing lets you be as cost effective as zerg can be so I think it's worth it. people focused on the cost aspect mostly because a troll was blatantly wrong, and bein adament about his standpoint. Discussing the strategy itself died out before that. I believe it was when people realized that this would net you scouting information at the 8:20 mark only, which is pretty much useless. Also, if your opponent follows your drone with a worker, its impossible to do. | ||
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Mr_Kyo
United States269 Posts
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monkh
United Kingdom568 Posts
2) if he doesn't attack it can you get an upgrade out of the evo chamber b4 it dies? getting super fast +1 if the person is playing passive | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
On March 21 2011 06:48 monkh wrote: 1) if the person attacks it whats quickest time it can die? 2) if he doesn't attack it can you get an upgrade out of the evo chamber b4 it dies? getting super fast +1 if the person is playing passive 1 is an issue same with evo blocking the gas in zerg vs zerg, sure you gain some info and slightly hassle them but they choose when to kill it. 2) is bad, they can see the animation of upgrades being researched and having to cancel an upgrade because they start attacking it near the end hurts your econ and costs you APM. It is bad to use this to scout as you give the control of when you scout and how much you see to the opponent, it would be like a zerg being able to decide exactly when a scan goes off. Zerg just have to scout the front, wait for overseers or OL speed, or go for some semi all in rush to work out the army composition. The only big changes to how zerg get to scout will happen in the expansion as the huge issue is the wall in which no T or P will give up through meta game changes. Maybe a use would be placing the evo up the ramp next to the cliff, then rushing some roaches to attack it from the bottom and then using the bloodlings attacking from inside the base and roaches attacking form the bottom to bust in, but this could only work later in the game when you can afford the roaches. Also the OP should remove anything in his post about overlord scouts costing more than 100 mins. Anything about the first drones not having a value of 50 mins, or lost overlords costing the unit and the cost or replacing it is pure trolling and should be shut down and then ignored. | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
On March 20 2011 04:53 dementrio wrote: This is a clever idea, however I don't think its viable in practice. First, as you said, you can anticipate what the protoss is doing by other means, and 8 minutes is too late to scout anything you would want to scout for. What I and I think most others have much more trouble with is scouting terrans, but their first marine is out pretty early and you can't afford to bank up to 300 mins (and dump 200 of them) that early. Yes. They can also just build away from it, and at 6-8 minutes they can flat out kill it. | ||
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JTouche
United States239 Posts
On March 21 2011 01:10 Jeffbelittle wrote: J: The reason we have to rehearse basic math is the same reason there ISN'T actual strategy discussion worthy material in this thread. Bottom line: His method costs a lot more, his cost comes earlier than the standard and therefore takes a harder hit on your own economy, and accomplishes everything the standard way does. There is 100%, NO REASON, to do what he is suggesting. That's it. That's the end of discussion. That's why I and others want this thread closed. We all got drawn in by a flashy title thinking "Oh man, is there some cool way to use broodlings effectively that we haven't thought about?", only to see a guy trying to convince the world saccing an overlord costs 200 minerals. Just use your head if you think there is. Would you rather spend 200 minerals on a "scout" really freaking early in the game that can only MAYBE make it to the back of the base to actually scout hidden Tech if the protoss is an idiot enough to kill the chamber? Or would you rather invest 100 minerals 5:45 into the game, which requires 0 stupidity on the side of the toss and effectively does the same thing? That's it. That's the entire argument. There's no more wiggle room. Every freaking person here that shows that they know basic starcraft (diamond+) has agreed that this idea is 100% horrible. Anyone who decides to blindly accept the horrible logic of the OP and starts evo chambering protoss bases for "scouting" best of luck to you. I hope you get incredibly great at this game to make up for how big of an investment you're making early on in the game for "scouting". Jeff may I ask what level player you are since you are apparently gosu. And one thing to consider about this evo trick is that as long as you micro it well, you will always scout the entire main. I have not encountered one time yet where he had enough units to deny my broodlings scouting. | ||
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azn_dude1
162 Posts
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
On March 21 2011 12:41 JTouche wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 21 2011 01:10 Jeffbelittle wrote: J: The reason we have to rehearse basic math is the same reason there ISN'T actual strategy discussion worthy material in this thread. Bottom line: His method costs a lot more, his cost comes earlier than the standard and therefore takes a harder hit on your own economy, and accomplishes everything the standard way does. There is 100%, NO REASON, to do what he is suggesting. That's it. That's the end of discussion. That's why I and others want this thread closed. We all got drawn in by a flashy title thinking "Oh man, is there some cool way to use broodlings effectively that we haven't thought about?", only to see a guy trying to convince the world saccing an overlord costs 200 minerals. Just use your head if you think there is. Would you rather spend 200 minerals on a "scout" really freaking early in the game that can only MAYBE make it to the back of the base to actually scout hidden Tech if the protoss is an idiot enough to kill the chamber? Or would you rather invest 100 minerals 5:45 into the game, which requires 0 stupidity on the side of the toss and effectively does the same thing? That's it. That's the entire argument. There's no more wiggle room. Every freaking person here that shows that they know basic starcraft (diamond+) has agreed that this idea is 100% horrible. Anyone who decides to blindly accept the horrible logic of the OP and starts evo chambering protoss bases for "scouting" best of luck to you. I hope you get incredibly great at this game to make up for how big of an investment you're making early on in the game for "scouting". Jeff may I ask what level player you are since you are apparently gosu. And one thing to consider about this evo trick is that as long as you micro it well, you will always scout the entire main. I have not encountered one time yet where he had enough units to deny my broodlings scouting. Cons: -You lose a total of ~200 minerals as oppose to the 100 mineral scouting overlord sacrifice INITIALLY. Edit: Ignore the math if not exactly correct, please just focus on the application of this technique _ *When you build the replacement overlord you are dead even at your mineral loss of 200[/u].* *If you build the overlord prior to sacrificing it, you've spent the 200 earlier than you would have with he evo technique* Should read: Cons You lose a total of ~200 minerals early, as opposed to 100 minerals when the scouting overlord is taken out. You need to trust fund 300 minerals early. The hatch placement can be denied by your scouting drone being followed. The opponent can force the scouting to occur earlier by attacking the chamber. | ||
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:41 azn_dude1 wrote: I think you guys are missing the point. The problem with this is not the cost, but the fact that you rely on your opponent to kill the evo chamber. A smart person would just keep his units away from the evo chamber until he either is moving out to kill you or it's late enough in the game when you know what his army composition is anyways. The evo dies on its own without creep, the problem is the opponent can speed it up and then choose his tech once the broods are dead. And that it costs more than saccing an OL. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
There is so much shit here like this thread that talks about a tactic that has been around since beta, provides no insight whatsoever, and clutters up the few decent threads in this forum, burying some of them. It's not new or original, and isn't even a good tactic except if your opponent freaks out. It's a shame, too, because there are some great posters here with solid insight and a knack for creative thinking. But seeing 30 of these threads for every 1 of those makes it difficult to ever sift through the bullshit. | ||
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JTouche
United States239 Posts
I scouted a 4gate prior to completion. (which was the most common build mentioned that needed to be scouted!) | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 21 2011 14:10 JTouche wrote: I don't understand how this tactic is not legitimate. It win's me games over and over again. Please check out the most recent replay I posted and tell me it's not viable. I scouted a 4gate prior to completion. (which was the most common build mentioned that needed to be scouted!) Ling scout the ramp, count the number and type of units, and also the number of chronos spent and where. Sac an OL just after 5 minutes, or if you're really smart, send one from each direction, and pull one back earlier so that you get full sight of his base with only 1 overlord sac. Find his probe and don't let another probe out of his base. If he's trying to send a probe, he's probably 4-gating you. If he has a stalker at all, he's probably 4-gating you. If he doesn't have more than 1-2 sentries, he's probably 4-gating you. When you send in the 2nd OL (briefly) make sure it's by his probe count. If there are only 18-20 probes, he's 4-gating you (even if you can't find the gates). If he's constantly chronoing the warpgate, he's 4-gating you. You get all this information more quickly and more decisively than your piss-awful idea. And if you're going to spend that much on a hatch, why even cancel it to build an evo chamber? A hatch will also produce broodlings, and you can even make lings from the hatch. The creep will give you more vision and mess up his building placement. Oh wait, did I just stumble on an amazing strategy that you could use against low master players???? I think I need my own thread! And vs. Terran, all he needs to do is pull a couple SCVs and use 2 marines and he'll have the DPS to kill it while building ( and kill your drone once it cancels). Not to mention he can just tech out of sight of the evo chamber, and then by not letting it finish, you have lost 175 minerals, a drone and still gotten no information. If he has marines around his base, scout with 2 OLs at the same time, and pull one back while saccing the other. Hooray, full vision of his base for 1 OL cost. edit: and stop trying to bump your shit thread. | ||
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JTouche
United States239 Posts
On March 21 2011 14:15 michaelhasanalias wrote: Ling scout the ramp, count the number and type of units, and also the number of chronos spent and where. Sac an OL just after 5 minutes, or if you're really smart, send one from each direction, and pull one back earlier so that you get full sight of his base with only 1 overlord sac. Find his probe and don't let another probe out of his base. If he's trying to send a probe, he's probably 4-gating you. If he has a stalker at all, he's probably 4-gating you. If he doesn't have more than 1-2 sentries, he's probably 4-gating you. When you send in the 2nd OL (briefly) make sure it's by his probe count. If there are only 18-20 probes, he's 4-gating you (even if you can't find the gates). If he's constantly chronoing the warpgate, he's 4-gating you. You get all this information more quickly and more decisively than your piss-awful idea. And if you're going to spend that much on a hatch, why even cancel it to build an evo chamber? A hatch will also produce broodlings, and you can even make lings from the hatch. The creep will give you more vision and mess up his building placement. Oh wait, did I just stumble on an amazing strategy that you could use against low master players???? I think I need my own thread! What about a map like typhoon peaks where you won't get 1 scouting overlord anywhere near his base before ~5:00? Please answer me that. (cross position for example) Edit: michaelhasanalias please answer this post. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10363 Posts
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
On March 21 2011 14:18 JTouche wrote: What about a map like typhoon peaks where you won't get 1 scouting overlord anywhere near his base before ~5:00? Please answer me that. (cross position for example) Edit: michaelhasanalias please answer this post. You edited your OP and still didn't fix up your pros and cons... as it is: Cons: -You lose a total of ~200 minerals as oppose to the 100 mineral scouting overlord sacrifice INITIALLY. Edit: Ignore the math if not exactly correct, please just focus on the application of this technique _ *When you build the replacement overlord you are dead even at your mineral loss of 200[/u].* *If you build the overlord prior to sacrificing it, you've spent the 200 earlier than you would have with he evo technique* This is still totally inaccurate. With an OL scout you lose 100 minerals when the OL is shot down, until that time it is providing a usable resource of supply. If your OL is shot down and you are supply blocked at 18/10, that OL still was doing its job right up until it was killed. You might have some good points but they are totally lost with all the trolling and what ever. Maybe a hatch or evo in the enemy base is a good idea for maps where you can't use the traditional scouting methods. I think most players just don't agree that its worth the cost. If once you have forked out your 200 mins you don't have the econ to defend what you scout, you are better off playing blind. | ||
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
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