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On March 11 2011 10:36 manicshock wrote:
Queuing you should have at most 2 in prod. Zerg would have the most because they stockpile in order to get a flood of units like 8 mutas or a few ultras.
Even with zerg, if you can you want to be spending your larva asap rather than all at once. You're probably best off looking at replays i guess, because money stacking is pretty situational.
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On March 11 2011 08:36 PR4Y wrote:For the most part, I keep my minerals / gas under 500 at ALL TIMES. However, I've noticed in the Score Summary screen from games in which these situations occur, my AuR will go up to around 1300-1500. On average, my AuR for a game in which I handle everything appropriately and my Macro / Micro is on point, my AuR will be between 600-900.
Uuh I hate to be mean, but if your macro and micro were on point you would be at the top of the Master's league on NA.
Also, if you hit 1k minerals you're just plain doing something wrong... You can always dump minerals into zealots, gateways and cannons if you're restricted on vespene.
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Saying "you should never queue units up" is disingenuous. It's like saying "you should never have a safe creep tumor that is not morphing a new creep tumor". Yeah, that's true, but if you are microing a muta ball then it's okay to be late on your creep spread.
APM and player attention is a resource. You have a finite amount of it, and sometimes it is worth to do things that are somewhat less efficient mineral/gas-wise to gain APM efficiency.
What you should say is that queueing units is suboptimal, since units sitting in the queue are (as has been said) idle resources.
Consider a Terran player who's about to embark on an ambitious two-pronged attack that will involve lots of micro -- emping infestors, stimming, stutter-stepping and splitting marines away from banelings, sieging and unsieging tanks, and managing medivac drops. This player anticipates having not much spare APM for managing production, as it is far more efficient to use that APM to stutter-step marines. It's entirely sensible to queue up a few marines and a tank at base before starting the engagement.
Another way to look at this is that queueing units is not inefficient compared to not queueing units when you have the cash to do so; the inefficiency comes from floating money that you could use to queue units in the first place. Queuing units just hides how much money you're actually floating. There is no difference between floating 600/400 and having 4 tanks queued in your factories; both represent the same amount of money sitting around not doing anything for you.
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On March 11 2011 10:57 Dental Floss wrote:
Its never okay to queue units for any reason. You can wave your hand at it and say "well its not that important" but its ridiculous to discuss anything put perfect play in a strategy forum. Perfection is what every player needs to strive for. You might not get there, but you need to aim high. Queueing is always wrong.
You can queue when a unit is ~95% produced, so that the next unit production isn't delayed (i.e. queuing probes at the beginning of a match).
Also, good thing warpgates have no queue. Promotes better macro
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3.2k masters Terran. My last 5 AUR:
400 (15minute game)
200 (12 minute game)
1.5k (21 minute game, I was maxed for half of it and unable to break his siege line sooooo. Still, I fucked up ^^)
100 (8minute game)
300 (14 minute game)
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On March 11 2011 11:47 Jimmeh wrote:
3.2k masters Terran. My last 5 AUR:
400 (15minute game)
200 (12 minute game)
1.5k (21 minute game, I was maxed for half of it and unable to break his siege line sooooo. Still, I fucked up ^^)
100 (8minute game)
300 (14 minute game)
When you are maxed, you can use your extra resources on PFs/turrets.
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My AUR is almost every game around 250-500. If the games goes into one of those games with neither team attacking and you get to 200/200 that's when my resources slip and so once I throw down some more production buildings My money will still be really high but that's fine becasue I cant really spend it on anything else anyway so im happy with 1000/1000 resources as lnog as im 200/200 and have a good amount of production with upgrades a going
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for terran i usually am around 400-500 unless i max out then i start stockpiling min/gas obviously
for zerg(my main) im usually around 800 against T (alot of minerals since mutas=high in gas), and around 500 against P/Z
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On March 11 2011 11:52 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 11:47 Jimmeh wrote:
3.2k masters Terran. My last 5 AUR:
400 (15minute game)
200 (12 minute game)
1.5k (21 minute game, I was maxed for half of it and unable to break his siege line sooooo. Still, I fucked up ^^)
100 (8minute game)
300 (14 minute game)
When you are maxed, you can use your extra resources on PFs/turrets.
I had 5bases vs 2, I'd already turreted up everywhere and I'd spent a lot of my initial extra money on building extra production buildings at one of my expansions on the other side of the map incase he killed my main somehow. The rest of it was literally just me waiting for him to gg out.
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On March 11 2011 09:23 Geovu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 09:17 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Unless when it is useful to queue up units.... and there are times. Like never amiright?
Like when you are on 3/4 base and near 200/200, there's no way you can spend your money. So after you battle, your surplus is high enough that you can queue an extra unit at each production facility while remaxxing. This allows you to focus more on doing drops and more micro intensive stuff to take advantage of that fact that you are Terran and your units are good at small sizes. :\
I mean, there are general guide lines but there are times where its useful to break them.
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My life for AuR...
In theory, your average unspent shouldn't go over ~500 or so in really long games (games in where you know exactly what you are doing) although some of the "top tier" players float around 1k - 1.5k in the late game just because they're trying to figure out what to do with their minerals based on what their opponent is doing. For shorter games they should be closer and closer to 0 just because you're in the early stages of your build (which should be optimized to the point where you have almost no unspent resources).
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On March 11 2011 08:36 PR4Y wrote:
Hey TL, I have a question that has been bugging me for a few weeks now.
For the sake of writing time, please read AuR as Average Unspent Resources.
I'm a 2500 Plat Protoss player, and I've recently installed SC2Gears and started analysing my replays of games that I've lost. I have a few good practice partners that are really helping me by pointing out weaknesses in my play. For the most part, I am a very macro-oriented player, and I have trouble dealing with Drop Harassment / Small unit engagements with micro-intensive situations.
I've noticed that when I get dropped or get into a situation that requires me focusing more attention on my Micro, my resources stockpile JUST A BIT. I'm not talking about floating 2k minerals or something absurd like that, but the small window of time immediately after these given situations I will have accumulated a few too many resources. What ends up happening after this is I will warp in another round of units or start some more upgrades or perhaps add a production facility, but I will still be left with more resources then I can possibly spend. This produces almost a cascading effect that will appear maybe 5-7 minutes from the engagement where I will have even more resources that I can't spend.
For the most part, I keep my minerals / gas under 500 at ALL TIMES. However, I've noticed in the Score Summary screen from games in which these situations occur, my AuR will go up to around 1300-1500. On average, my AuR for a game in which I handle everything appropriately and my Macro / Micro is on point, my AuR will be between 600-900.
My question is this:
What are the pro level players averaging for AuR in their games? Is mine too high? I'm trying to use these statistics to analyze weaknesses in my play... and while I know where my weaknesses are, I'm trying to identify HOW weak my macro is.
TL;DR:
My AuR averages around 600-900, while games in which I am being constantly drop harassed reaches 1300-1500. Is this normal? What are high ranked Masters players AuR?
Reading this I feel pretty sure that your AI (average income) is too low compared to masterr players.
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On March 11 2011 09:10 HeroHenry wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 09:01 tuestresfat wrote:
I'm not 100% certain (since I can't play the other races for shit) but I would assume this to be the case:
Terran should have the lowest amount of resources banked since you can always readily spend it by queuing up a marine at your barracks, making additional barracks, expanding, etc.
Toss will have more average amount of minerals banked because of the warp in technology that can't queue (when i say queue, i mean like queuing an additional marine just before the first one finishes, and you can afford it, not queuing 5marines on one racks just to get rid of your resources) units and spends and creates the unit instantly in one burst. This is why toss who go gateway heavy will have their resources bank up, then shoot all the way down after each warp in cycle.
Zerg wants to drone and expand as much as they can get away with. Ideally, a Zerg would want to create his entire army at the very last possible second. Zerg is also a reactionary race, once they scout mass Voidrays incoming, they want to be able to throw down that hydralisk den and pump out 10 hydras instantly, then continuously keeping their resources low on mass roach.
Needless to say, all races will bank like crazy once they hit 200/200.
edit: when you think about it, terran and toss really produce units at the same pace relative to their resources. Queuing up is bad and you shouldn't queue units up.
wow learn to read i even wrote a good chunk because i know people like you make comment without reading. seriously why do i bother.
On March 11 2011 09:23 Geovu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 09:17 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Unless when it is useful to queue up units.... and there are times. Like never amiright?
you find me one. just ONE. replay of a pro level non-cheese game where one of the players NEVER, EVER, EVER queues up a unit for the entire game.
my point: i'm sorry i don't have 2000 apm to not queue units at any point.
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On March 11 2011 14:28 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 09:10 HeroHenry wrote:On March 11 2011 09:01 tuestresfat wrote:
I'm not 100% certain (since I can't play the other races for shit) but I would assume this to be the case:
Terran should have the lowest amount of resources banked since you can always readily spend it by queuing up a marine at your barracks, making additional barracks, expanding, etc.
Toss will have more average amount of minerals banked because of the warp in technology that can't queue (when i say queue, i mean like queuing an additional marine just before the first one finishes, and you can afford it, not queuing 5marines on one racks just to get rid of your resources) units and spends and creates the unit instantly in one burst. This is why toss who go gateway heavy will have their resources bank up, then shoot all the way down after each warp in cycle.
Zerg wants to drone and expand as much as they can get away with. Ideally, a Zerg would want to create his entire army at the very last possible second. Zerg is also a reactionary race, once they scout mass Voidrays incoming, they want to be able to throw down that hydralisk den and pump out 10 hydras instantly, then continuously keeping their resources low on mass roach.
Needless to say, all races will bank like crazy once they hit 200/200.
edit: when you think about it, terran and toss really produce units at the same pace relative to their resources. Queuing up is bad and you shouldn't queue units up. wow learn to read i even wrote a good chunk because i know people like you make comment without reading. seriously why do i bother. Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 09:23 Geovu wrote:On March 11 2011 09:17 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Unless when it is useful to queue up units.... and there are times. Like never amiright? you find me one. just ONE. replay of a pro level non-cheese game where one of the players NEVER, EVER, EVER queues up a unit for the entire game. my point: i'm sorry i don't have 2000 apm to not queue units at any point.
The fact that you need to do it because of APM limitations doesn't mean it's ideal to do.
Protoss Warpgates don't get to queue up either. The fact is, you shouldn't ever queue. If you need to, that's another thing entirely from what you should strive for. Saying you're going to queue because you can't macro and do your drops at the same time is another thing from saying queuing your units is a good thing.
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Also depends on your probe production. I have a friend who thinks he has decent macro even though he is in Silver, he tries to prove it by his 500 average unspent resources, but it doesn't mean much when he has only built 30 probes during the entire game -_-
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On March 11 2011 11:20 entropius wrote:
Saying "you should never queue units up" is disingenuous. It's like saying "you should never have a safe creep tumor that is not morphing a new creep tumor". Yeah, that's true, but if you are microing a muta ball then it's okay to be late on your creep spread.
APM and player attention is a resource. You have a finite amount of it, and sometimes it is worth to do things that are somewhat less efficient mineral/gas-wise to gain APM efficiency.
What you should say is that queueing units is suboptimal, since units sitting in the queue are (as has been said) idle resources.
Consider a Terran player who's about to embark on an ambitious two-pronged attack that will involve lots of micro -- emping infestors, stimming, stutter-stepping and splitting marines away from banelings, sieging and unsieging tanks, and managing medivac drops. This player anticipates having not much spare APM for managing production, as it is far more efficient to use that APM to stutter-step marines. It's entirely sensible to queue up a few marines and a tank at base before starting the engagement.
Another way to look at this is that queueing units is not inefficient compared to not queueing units when you have the cash to do so; the inefficiency comes from floating money that you could use to queue units in the first place. Queuing units just hides how much money you're actually floating. There is no difference between floating 600/400 and having 4 tanks queued in your factories; both represent the same amount of money sitting around not doing anything for you.
Hard not to agree 100% here. Yes a "perfect" player would never queue units, and there is no reason to if you are a perfect player, which is what we're aiming for.
Humans however, have limitations, queuing is generally bad, but there is a finite number of things we can do, and timing unit productions might just not be one of them at that point. If we have the extra cash, why not use it to automate what we can so we don't have to deal with it at the same time.
The real solution really, is probably to just not build up so much cash in the first place, but that's hardly something that can be addressed in the current game, if you have the cash to queue up a bunch of units you probably could have afforded some more production facilities.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Wow, people love to get on their high horse about queueing, don't they?
Sure queueing is bad, but you have to accept your limitations as a player. If you're not at the stage when you can flawlessly build extra units in the middle of a battle, then it must be better to queue and have the units than not :|
I'm a Diamond Protoss player, and my macro is pretty terrible. Recently I discovered that it's better that I have maybe an extra gateway than I can support (on a couple of bases say), because at the regular moments I miss my macro, it's much easier to make it up with that extra gateway. I think it's stupid to say "omg 150 minerals wasted!??!". Well, yeah, 150 mins is rarely gonna make the difference on 2+ bases, what will make the difference is being able to spend all my money when for whatever reason it accumulates.
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On March 11 2011 11:52 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 11:47 Jimmeh wrote:
3.2k masters Terran. My last 5 AUR:
400 (15minute game)
200 (12 minute game)
1.5k (21 minute game, I was maxed for half of it and unable to break his siege line sooooo. Still, I fucked up ^^)
100 (8minute game)
300 (14 minute game)
When you are maxed, you can use your extra resources on PFs/turrets.
I think it's generally better to make more unit producing structures for faster re-maxing.
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=>It just means that you are not very good at using your APM to macro and micro. Getting nervous of small drops and engagements is bad.
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It's normal for minerals to stockpile when you're microing. It's not a huge deal assuming that you take steps to keep it low when you ARENT furiously microing in a battle. If you had a butt ton of minerals after a battle that you came out on top of, just expand and you'll be fine.
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EPT
