EPTRoaches simply come out too late
[G] ZvX No Gas FE Opening - S1CK - Page 3
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JerKy
Korea (South)3013 Posts
Roaches simply come out too late | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On February 25 2011 05:04 DarKFoRcE wrote: This is just completely worthless. You absolutely need Zerglingspeed for Mapcontrol and to have the option to pressure when the opponent expands etc. You will also have alot of trouble defending against any kind of early push without Lingspeed. Also, taking Gas at 40 means that you will get super late t2. Overall, a horrible trainwreck of a build. This blue background is helpful in seeing the pattern of your posts on TL. I'm just glad to see you make a habit of insulting people, and it wasn't personal when you bashed my previous thread. Perhaps you could attempt to offer him constructive advice without resorting to calling it a "completely worthless, horrible trainwreck of a build." | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
On February 25 2011 05:48 KawaiiRice wrote: if you do this against terran you will lose to literally everything possible. I can make marines only and win vs this.. non-speed lings are so bad that stim is gonna deal more damage to the marines than your lings will. your analysis of your own build is shallow and covers nothing whatsoever short of whimsical rushes where you just tell zergs to pray against cloak banshees or runbys... I think KawaiiRice approves of your build. Also yeah, my biggest gripe is runbys and the fact that since your gas is so late, even devoting your first 100 to lair and delaying ling speed farther, 2 port cloak banshees or DT rush will straight end you hands down, not to mention 4gate blink will just ignore your crawlers. Also a strong stim push, tank marine push, blueflame hellion runby, speedling runby, will all pretty much guarantee a dead main | ||
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clever_us
United States329 Posts
On February 25 2011 08:21 Stropheum wrote: I think KawaiiRice approves of your build. Lol. *bangs forehead on edge of table* | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On February 25 2011 08:36 gROOT.clever wrote: Lol. *bangs forehead on edge of table* Good description of most of this thread. ROFL at the guy who thinks 4 Warpgate would bust a Queen/Spine opening. Seriously, thread, the weakness of opening Queen/Static instead of mobile units is that you give up map control and the ability to attack the opposing player (which allows them to play greedy as well, and probably restrict your information if the map isn't conducive to overlord camping). The strength is that you can easily defend any sort of aggression for cheaper (in ~larva/minerals/whatever) than with mobile units, allowing you to purchase more drones. | ||
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ktimekiller
United States690 Posts
On February 25 2011 08:01 jdseemoreglass wrote: This blue background is helpful in seeing the pattern of your posts on TL. I'm just glad to see you make a habit of insulting people, and it wasn't personal when you bashed my previous thread. Perhaps you could attempt to offer him constructive advice without resorting to calling it a "completely worthless, horrible trainwreck of a build." I don't see how this changes the fact that he is right | ||
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Flyingpants
79 Posts
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Oneoldfogie
United Kingdom61 Posts
On February 25 2011 07:41 JerKy wrote: Minigun (or was it CatZ?) pointed out that if a zerg does a gasless expansion, he/she will tend to lose to 4 gate in ZvP. Roaches simply come out too late I'm not sure how much this is worth at my level, but my brother (low/mid diamond) just tried this with me and he didn't feel as though he could even attack my wall with his normal old zealot heavy 4 gate. However, it was cross map LT and I had like 6 or 7 spine crawlers and 5 or 6 queens. We then went into normal game, I took the gold, maxed on roaches + corruptors and mutas against his 2 and a half base 1 robo, 5 gate collosus / stalker, and I crushed him, especially with all the queens transfusing whatever I could. I dunno... Im gunna try and see what its like on the ladder though, I think its got potential, at least at my level anyway. | ||
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Flyingpants
79 Posts
On February 25 2011 08:57 Oneoldfogie wrote: I'm not sure how much this is worth at my level, but my brother (low/mid diamond) just tried this with me and he didn't feel as though he could even attack my wall with his normal old zealot heavy 4 gate. However, it was cross map LT and I had like 6 or 7 spine crawlers and 5 or 6 queens. We then went into normal game, I took the gold, maxed on roaches + corruptors and mutas against his 2 and a half base 1 robo, 5 gate collosus / stalker, and I crushed him, especially with all the queens transfusing whatever I could. I dunno... Im gunna try and see what its like on the ladder though, I think its got potential, at least at my level anyway. Ya, you don't need roachs to stop a 4gate, just produce lings off 2 base and you'll be fine. But again, you will need speed for your lings. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On February 25 2011 09:08 Flyingpants wrote: Ya, you don't need roachs to stop a 4gate, just produce lings off 2 base and you'll be fine. But again, you will need speed for your lings. Or Queen/Spine, which is what he used, and what this thread is about. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
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bqzg
64 Posts
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aneruok
Canada122 Posts
I don't see the huge economic boost you would get if you have to make extra queens and crawlers. You are losing a lotof tech options as well. Your muta harass is delayed and the early hellion attack will. Still do a lot of dmg if your not careful. I dont know if its more beneficial but I do like mass queens. Transfuse late game is highly effective | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
The issue with attempting this vs zerg is I think as darkforce says: you leave a pretty big window for attack early on with speedling pressure. I think if you're going to make this work against a zerg, you need to pool earlier (maybe even 9 pool?) and spread creep early such that you can expand perhaps around 19 or 20 once creep is already there. NexLife (I think) did an economic 9pool double queen build to have a ramp block against early banelings, and I think adjusting something like that might work extremely in your favor vs. going for both a late pool and a late hatch when your build essentially depends on spawning pool tech for survival. I think doing what you describe vs protoss and on a map with a small choke sounds like a great strategy. Vs. Zerg, there's such a huge window in your current build, although I think the concept can still work very well. regarding your replays: In zvz (Shak): You left yourself extremely susceptible to early pressure and lost, pretty easy to see why. I think you can't pool this late (14-15) and take a hatch against zerg and then depend on queens/spines to protect you from aggression. It's just too greedy. In zvz (metal): You basically lost the game in the first few minutes. The only reason you came back is because blue forced aggression vs a wall of spine crawlers and your roach army. Only after this exchange were you able to come out ahead. Had he not attacked you and simply took a third or fully saturated his bases, there's just nothing you can do to punish him. If you're going to make this work in zvz, you have to realize something important: 1) You will have NO map control, and therefore no ability to harass your opponent. If this is the case, you need to be sure the economic advantage of 2-basing and saturating as fast as possible will EXCEED your opponent's ability to match your production. You don't have a way to stop him from taking a third, and even though 3rds in ZvZ aren't especially common so early, because you have no means of harassing your opponent, I don't see how you can accomplish this, but I won't say it's not possible because I've never played with or against anything like it. Again, I think there's real potential here, but don't deny gas just for the sake of denying it. There needs to be a clear advantage in doing so. | ||
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GP
United States1056 Posts
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CookieMaker
Canada880 Posts
- you're not going to get a 3rd up in time to stop a lot of mid-game pushes - you're not going to have the tech needed to stop a lot of mid-game pushes (hydras/infestors) - you're going to have to rely on ovie-saccing to scout becasue your lair is so late and you dont have speedlings to scout the front. Simply,the money is great. But slow lings are sooooooo bad, you've giving a terran or toss free reign on expanding and that's gonna be REALLY hard to break later on when you're behind in upgrades and tech. I'm imagining quick PF's at the gold on xelnaga and ridiculously strong contains on LT and Meta. Not to mention, youre totally screwed on any smaller maps (jungle, steppes) that REQUIRE gas-related shenannigans to pull off wins. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
Incidentally, small maps are actually very helpful for this style of play since it transitions so easily into a migrating giraffe + heal push. | ||
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bbulzibar
United States80 Posts
4:00 min 15 Hatch Pops. Immediately put down 2 spines (btw, 2 hurts your econ way more than 1) 4:55 min 2 Spines Pop. 5:45 min 40 drones. Get all 4 gases. This takes 16 drones. (3 on each and 4 to build). 24 drones left mining minerals. 12 drones mining gas. All new drones go on minerals. When you have 100 gas, get lair, roach warren. 2 evos. Get 1/1, burrow and roach speed. They all finish around the same time. At 10:30 you have a 134 food army consisting of 30 +1/+1 roaches with speed and burrow, and 62 drones, so you're ready to break down some gold rocks and attack. I would note that I've never won "because" of this build. It's just another way to get you past the early game into the mid game, without putting you very far ahead or behind. | ||
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clever_us
United States329 Posts
On February 25 2011 11:34 bbulzibar wrote: While this build won't work at the pro level, Anyone below should think about this more. It's really not that crazy, and I've beat ~2700 Masters players with a similar build. I think most people think it takes forever to get to 40 drones, but it's actually very reasonably fast. 4:00 min 15 Hatch Pops. Immediately put down 2 spines (btw, 2 hurts your econ way more than 1) 4:55 min 2 Spines Pop. 5:45 min 40 drones. Get all 4 gases. This takes 16 drones. (3 on each and 4 to build). 24 drones left mining minerals. 12 drones mining gas. All new drones go on minerals. When you have 100 gas, get lair, roach warren. 2 evos. Get 1/1, burrow and roach speed. They all finish around the same time. At 10:30 you have a 134 food army consisting of 30 +1/+1 roaches with speed and burrow, and 62 drones, so you're ready to break down some gold rocks and attack. I would note that I've never won "because" of this build. It's just another way to get you past the early game into the mid game, without putting you very far ahead or behind. This is a much better explanation of this opening than I provided. I'm going to put this in the OP. I don't know if this build is especially viable at the tip-top levels of play. It's worked for me in upper plat (although I admit that against zerg it seems to be somewhere between pretty difficult and virtually impossible to pull off). This whole thread should have been a discussion, not a guide, and I think that's where most people got so pissed off. I didn't have anywhere near enough research done to publish a full-blown guide. And maybe it is just too fanciful to hope that a turtling strategy like this can work at all. That being said I'm going to keep playing around with it to see if there might be something I'm missing. | ||
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