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On February 25 2011 05:04 DarKFoRcE wrote:
This is just completely worthless. You absolutely need Zerglingspeed for Mapcontrol and to have the option to pressure when the opponent expands etc. You will also have alot of trouble defending against any kind of early push without Lingspeed.
Also, taking Gas at 40 means that you will get super late t2.
Overall, a horrible trainwreck of a build.
WHOA, how is this post glowing?! It's like a beacon of truth! Personally, I'd definitely rather have map control and tech instead of being trapped in my base.
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On February 25 2011 05:40 Algar wrote:
TLO actually used a very similar opening in a recent MrBitters episode. In his case, he used it specifically against 2 Rax aggression... just Queens and crawlers til he saturated both bases then took 4 gas all at once.
I saw that and it was interesting. he said he could do that becase by opening 2rax the terran delays his tech as well.
However idra in the same show said that you want to get a fast geyser even when you are being bunker rushed because he thinks you can't survive the marine/scvs followups without speed.
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seems so dangerous... no speed for map control and no tech... any allin seems like it would stomp this so easy. Not to mention cloaked banshees and no lair for overseers ? Yah a spore or two will help but you invest to much putting them and spines all over and its pointless.
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On February 25 2011 05:31 lim1017 wrote:
You guys may be taking the 40 food gas to literally.. The basic idea is to def with queens and crawlers while you drone up super fast. Maybe take ur gas at 30 who knows
-_-
It's frustrating to have to read posts like this. No, people aren't taking 40 food gas too literally. They're taking it exactly the right amount of literally.
On February 25 2011 04:56 gROOT.clever wrote:
~40 first gas
means ~40 first gas. Not 30. Not 50. Not 70. 40. If the OP doesn't know when to take his gas, then don't specify a supply for when to take gas in the BO.
If a terran opponent is going cloaked banshees, or a protoss opponent is going blink stalkers, delaying your gas by even 10-15 seconds could lose you the game. Gas timings are extremely important for any zerg build, and just saying 'oh btw, grab gas around 40 supply' is a recipe for a BO loss.
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this build will put the zerg in a bad position if it a 2rax rush or blink stalker.
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WOW EVERYONE SO MEAN
i think what you are trying to do here is basically turtle as zerg.
i think the reason that other races can do this vs zerg is because they can
a) harass pretty well
or
b) sacrifice having early presence to build up a MANLY MANLY DEATH BALL/ENDGAME ARMY that can compete with a better economy-having zerg.
If zerg could make a 200/200 army off 2 bases that could compete with a 3/4 base protoss/terran army this might be viable. But this is not the case.
Also, as kawaii mentions, most standard play will kind of circumvent this defense because of the range and versatility of attacking options of the other races. It takes zerg a while to get drops or air so cannons can be strong, but you dont see forge FE vs terran for the same reason you dont see spine crawler FE as zerg; drops circumvent the defense and the range of the attacking units makes it hard to be safe with static D.
I Think its a cool idea but i dont think zerg can be played this way off 2 base because of the map control you give up.
MAYBE, off of 3 base, if you could ensure you'd be safe from drops and harass (which is hard due to lack of watchtower control) and then mass up a cost effective 200/200 zerg army, this might be worth it, but i think its just too difficult. The only cost effective zerg army in the way a protoss death ball is cost effective is something with broodlord/infestors ultra and queen, abusing the energy using units and unit-producing uniqueness of the broodlord.
I think if you want to do this, going for a zerg deathball can be your only goal, and there is no good zerg deathball (IN CURRENT METAGAME), which is why this is a difficult build to do.
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On February 25 2011 05:04 DarKFoRcE wrote:
This is just completely worthless. You absolutely need Zerglingspeed for Mapcontrol and to have the option to pressure when the opponent expands etc. You will also have alot of trouble defending against any kind of early push without Lingspeed.
Also, taking Gas at 40 means that you will get super late t2.
Overall, a horrible trainwreck of a build.
beat me to it. i sort of facepalmed reading this. 40gas wtf? zergs would die to so much random bullshit.
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Not good. You ARE giving up map control in the early game. That is very important. What are you going to do against an opponent who Fast Expands? What are you going to do vs a 2rax? What are you going to do against 2Gate zealot pressure? Queens SUCK vs Marines AND zealots.
Don't even get me started on ZvZ.
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On February 25 2011 04:56 gROOT.clever wrote:
-- the cost of the spine crawler,
-- the cost of the extra queens,
-- the opportunity cost of what the drone that builds the spine crawler could have mined,
I edited your post to show why this is not a free lunch.
Edit:
While I appreciate the attempt by players to make more comprehensive strategy guides, it doesn't help if players disguise poorly thought out strategies in the form of a well thought-out strategy. It's like speaking with an English accent to sound smart.
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I do a similar build vs 2 rax openers, I hatch first vs Terran whenever possible and if they 2 rax I won't have speed in time to fight it off, so I fight it off using queens and spine crawlers and as few lings as possible while droning well into the 40-50 food range which works really well since our economy grows SO fast with minerals and with queens and good overlord scouting you don't really need to worry about banshees or helions until you will have gas.
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On February 25 2011 05:38 NacRuno wrote:
I think this build is more promising than it is given credit for. Since the funday monday of Day9 I have been playing around with a similar build (spines + mass queens) against Protoss and Terran. The only difference is I get my gas at 21, have the ling speed and a 2 pairs of lings on the map. Then I drone up very hard, like till I have full saturation on two bases or three bases if my opponent committed an attack on me and retreated due to the spines. Then I switch to mass unit production and attack the opponent.
Going no gas that long might be worth a try but you don't need to anyways since you have a ton of drones and excess minerals you can't spend.
EDIT: The stalker pressure usually comes before you have the speed anyways and you need spines for that. You can use your queens as blockers and spine as defense for that. Also by the time terran can come with helions you should already have your front blocked my spines and queens. Unless terran tries an hellion drop you are totally fine and that is late enough for you to have some units anyways. This strat works for me on all the maps including xel naga with a bit more tactical spine placement. Of course not gonna work on the three maps OP listed but I don't play on them either.
My 0.02 cents as a 2.4k diamond zerg
This is probably a much better description of how this build might be able to work. I've also found that I wind up with a surplus of mins but I attributed it to poor micro. I can definitely see 40 being late for getting gas, but I still think the basic concept has potential.
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On February 25 2011 05:50 dementrio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 05:40 Algar wrote:
TLO actually used a very similar opening in a recent MrBitters episode. In his case, he used it specifically against 2 Rax aggression... just Queens and crawlers til he saturated both bases then took 4 gas all at once. I saw that and it was interesting. he said he could do that becase by opening 2rax the terran delays his tech as well. However idra in the same show said that you want to get a fast geyser even when you are being bunker rushed because he thinks you can't survive the marine/scvs followups without speed.
I agree with idra here. zergling speed is also needed to defend a possible 4/5 rax stimpush followup (with expansion). see oGsEsnare vs Cezanne in Up and Down matches of last GSL Season, the Stimpush arrived a little before Cezanne had Lingspeed ready (he took gas after fending off the initial pressure, which was before 30 supply and still too late).
On February 25 2011 06:21 gROOT.clever wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 05:38 NacRuno wrote:
I think this build is more promising than it is given credit for. Since the funday monday of Day9 I have been playing around with a similar build (spines + mass queens) against Protoss and Terran. The only difference is I get my gas at 21, have the ling speed and a 2 pairs of lings on the map. Then I drone up very hard, like till I have full saturation on two bases or three bases if my opponent committed an attack on me and retreated due to the spines. Then I switch to mass unit production and attack the opponent.
Going no gas that long might be worth a try but you don't need to anyways since you have a ton of drones and excess minerals you can't spend.
EDIT: The stalker pressure usually comes before you have the speed anyways and you need spines for that. You can use your queens as blockers and spine as defense for that. Also by the time terran can come with helions you should already have your front blocked my spines and queens. Unless terran tries an hellion drop you are totally fine and that is late enough for you to have some units anyways. This strat works for me on all the maps including xel naga with a bit more tactical spine placement. Of course not gonna work on the three maps OP listed but I don't play on them either.
My 0.02 cents as a 2.4k diamond zerg This is probably a much better description of how this build might be able to work. I've also found that I wind up with a surplus of mins but I attributed it to poor micro. I can definitely see 40 being late for getting gas, but I still think the basic concept has potential.
You dont always have to get gas at 14 or whatever. But if you write a GUIDE and it says that you should get gas at ~40, this is something COMPLETELY different than getting gas at ~20. So you shouldnt be surprised if your "guide" gets ripped apart if something so fundamental as the gas timing is just completely off... especially because it is the core thing your guide is trying to highlight.
I personally also get gas only shortly before my pool finishes in a 15h14p BO vs terran on for example shakuras plateau, but this has nothing to do with what you are trying to describe in your guide.
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On February 25 2011 06:27 DarKFoRcE wrote:
You dont always have to get gas at 14 or whatever. But if you write a GUIDE and it says that you should get gas at ~40, this is something COMPLETELY different than getting gas at ~20. So you shouldnt be surprised if your "guide" gets ripped apart if something so fundamental as the gas timing is just completely off... especially because it is the core thing your guide is built around.
This is extremely valid. You are correct. I should have posted it as a "discussion" thread and stated it as a hypothetical rather than a "guide."
That being said is there any way that I can get your autograph?
^^
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Well skipping ling speed and defending with just spines and queens is definitely possible.
Everyone who says stuff like "this will die to 2rax" and so on, you are terribly wrong.
First of all, no one ever has lingspeed by the time a 2rax hits.
You can still make slowlings to defend just like any normal build does vs 2rax.
After that, you got spines. They do just fine.
Terran really really doesnt want to be attacking into 4-5 spines at a choke on highground on for example shakuras, with a bunch of unupgraded marines.
You ARE giving up map control in the early game. That is very important. What are you going to do against an opponent who Fast Expands?
Using that build, youd probably do the same thing most ppl do with a speedling opener: Drone as hard as you can as soon as you see an expo.
What are you going to do vs a 2rax? What are you going to do against 2Gate zealot pressure?
Same thing everyone does, use drones, queens, spines, and slowlings.
The mapcontrol isnt really all that much of an issue. You can afford to lose mapcontrol until T2, its not as bad as most people make it out to be. Anytime a terran opens with hellions, zerg loses mapcontrol until T2. No big deal, just turtle for a bit while droning, and then life goes on.
The gas timing, well 40 does seem late, but you certainly can afford to get your gas later than most players do if you are going to skip ling speed, and still get a lair at the usual time.
A defense with spines and queens is overall very effective, its probably a much safer defense than the thin line most speedling builds walk on.
The thing is, its not really giving you an advantage, its just doing it differently.
Instead of investing in lingspeed + lings, you are investing in queens and spines. Your economy wont really be much better off from it.
So the real question is, whats the benefit?
Benefit of the lingspeed expand, is that you have the ability to punish someone who is really being overly greedy. And you get the ling speed up, which is in a lot of cases a very useful upgrade to have.
Benefits I can see with the queen-spine expand, is that you are also covered for antiair.
It just doesnt seem like there is any huge advantage to it compared to the more standard ling opening. You dont really end up saving money and having a stronger economy, because you still need to invest in spines and queens. maps are too small to make reactive spines, so it doesnt really seem all that good for now.
On bigger maps though...
If you can afford to wait until your opponent is moving out to make spines, and they build in time, then skipping lingspeed, and relying purely on a couple of queens and reactive spines to defend could really allow you to have a much better economy early on, you could spend every single larva on drones, and still be perfectly fine if he attacks.
If for some reason you wanted to play without speedlings, as often seen in ZvP mid and lategame, then skipping speed completely and getting a better economy from it would be quite nice.
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darkforce,
if you have seen the recent mass expand /mass ling build against P, i'd like to get your opinion on how viable it would be against terran and what its vulnerabilities would be vs it
if you haven't, it's a speedling expand build keeping 1 drone on gas that gets a 3rd at about 6-7:00. with the gas he gets +1 melee, then a baneling nest, then +1 carapace all before lair.
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Yeah I completely agree with darkforce.
Vs terran, any helion, marine, hell ANY opener will destroy you.
Vs zerg? Yeah if they go banelings, goodbye, or hell if they just go speedlings or roaches
Vs protoss? Any tech and you're screwed
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On February 25 2011 07:09 1Eris1 wrote:
Vs zerg? Yeah if they go banelings, goodbye, or hell if they just go speedlings or roaches
You DO realize that StrifeCro has been doing a no-gas expand with mass spines in ZvZ at the pro level for at least a few weeks now right?
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Although I feel map control with zergling speed is the most standard and strongest way to play Zerg, I still think the idea of making more spine crawlers and queens in the case of playing against a reactor opening by a Terran player is strong. The only thing is, I never ignore my gas or my tech timings. Zerg tech is just too important to ignore. I will 17 gas every game or earlier. Even if it means I'm going to mine the first 100 gas with 2 drones slowly because I'm dealing with really strong early pressure.
All you do to deal with reactor hellion without speedlings or early roaches is make a third queen immediately after your first queen, then you can set up an airlock on your ramp to prevent hellion runbys which can be extremely dangerous and not defended by zerglings. Due to defending with only spine crawlers and queens you can avoid making lings before you have speed and therefore get a larger economy until then, the only difficulty is effective scouting without zergling map control, but I believe that you can't reliably gain map control back from a terran who commits to more 4 hellions with speedlings so you're taking a risk if you try to contest hellions with speedlings. If they do commit to more than 4 hellions they're obviously playing more allin, but you still have no idea when they decide to expand or what they're teching if you try to contest map control and fail.
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On February 25 2011 05:04 DarKFoRcE wrote:
This is just completely worthless. You absolutely need Zerglingspeed for Mapcontrol and to have the option to pressure when the opponent expands etc. You will also have alot of trouble defending against any kind of early push without Lingspeed.
Also, taking Gas at 40 means that you will get super late t2.
Overall, a horrible trainwreck of a build.
Most members here would be warned or temp banned for posting something this hostile. I hope just because someone is highlighted doesn't mean they are allowed to be dicks.
On topic...
I am as skeptical as most about the "late gas," but how much of that 40 supply is drones? I think some people are assuming 40 supply in a normal build would really be like, 35 drones 2 queens 2 lings, but if you're really at like, 29 drones 2 lings 5 queens, that's quite a bit different. Furthermore you're going 100% larvae into drones (minus the pair of lings), and 100% drones into minerals (except for afew spines). This means you should be hitting that supply quicker than normal builds where you spend more drones on tech and gas earlier.
TL;DR : I am willing to believe that the "late" gas isn't actually as late as it seems because of it's high larvae and drone efficiency.
Edit: forgot to say, wouldn't an early marine/tank push punish the shit out of this build? Most other early aggression shouldn't be that scary with spine/queen combo.
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Well this may be OK on some matches but I don't think that it is that good unless your opponent tries to win fast while you put 4+ spine crawlers.
if i saw this against me i'd probably double expand immediately and drone up so hard that it would be hard to catch me with 2 hatcheries and i'd probably have enough to have an auxillary hatch. And have my way from there on.
vs. protoss or terran if they make an expand too when seeing this they would opt going for 3 base colossus voidray ball cause losing map control and making it sure that you won't attack for a while lets them do this. and as it is always said Zerg will lose to same or less amount of bases %99 percent of the time.
Can be fun to try tho. can be done to throw people off balance if they are trying to 2 racks / 4 gate you.
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EPT
