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Hi Guys,
I'm only a silver player so I know my hatred towards muta is down to my own inability to defend it rather than any sort of balance issue but please can you help.
I don't mind playing zerg at all except when they just spam muta at which point their ability to just swoop into a cannoned mineral line, destroy the cannons and all workers and leave before my stalkers can get to them just drives me to complete and utter frustration.
I know my options are:
- Use early pressure to prevent them getting to muta
- Blink Stalkers
- High Templars
- Phoenix
The problem I personally have with these are:
- Zergs ability to just spam roach usually means the amount of damage I do with my early 4 zealots is too minimal to be worth it before the opponents roaches pop out and just kite the lots around.
- My macro at home suffers while I'm doing this so the damage done is usually greater to myself than it is my opponent.
- Blink stalkers are great but slow enough that I struggle to hold more than 1 expo with them on the larger maps.
- Templars are great but very exensive to tech too and if it's in a 2v2 where you're playing PZ they're completely useless against the P side OR if the opponent just suddenly spams roach.
- Phoenix are great but slow to make enough off 1 stargate to counter an opponent who's invested heavily in muta.
I know I need to improve my APM and agressiveness in games but that's something I'm working on passively while playing, if anyone has any tips for things I can actually think about while playing that may help I'd greatly appreciate it 
Help me TeamLiquid, you're my only hope.
TPN
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I think a normal 4 gate owns muta builds. If you play aggressively, the mutas have to help defend your attacking army and suffer heavy losses.
In the lategame blink stalker+cannons work pretty well. Check out this huk vs nestea game:
http://blip.tv/file/4633439
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By the time they have muta's out you should be on 2 bases with a forge already up, so once you scout the mutas (you should be able to scout the spire before it's even done) you can easily put up some cannons at each mineral line and begin to tech to blink stalkers to held fend off the muta's.
You will have to turtle up a little bit while doing this, but as you tech to archon tech you then can easily move out and take your third while also getting more upgrades for your ground units (should probably be researching weapons level 2 after already having 1-1 at this point) and getting storm for templar.
Storm is in no means bad against roaches like you said. "Templars are great...they're completely useless if the opponent just suddenly spams roach." I'd say anything that deals 80 damage in a splash radius is pretty dam good.
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Personally I prefer Blink Stalkers because I usually like to go for a gateway/robo army but phoenix off two gate would probably be the most efficient, you need to invest quite heavily in them to counter mass mutas though which seems a bit much for me.
I find Blink Stalkers work fine as long as you have a couple of cannons at each expo so to give you a little bit of time. Also it really helps if you have some form of scouting so you can see where the mutas are headed, like an observer or allies creep spread. If your micro is good enough, you can follow the mutas from mineral line to mineral line, just remember to only blink when you need to or when you are about to get into range so you can keep on them and do maximum damage when you get near before they run away.
With stalkers though you need a lot and I would definitely recommend upgrades (possibly double forge) and a couple of senties for guardian shield.
PS. I like the end of your post haha.
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firstly, you need to post replays. chances are your biggest problem is macro.
On, topic, you said you do a 4 zeal early push against zerg, which sounds... not good. roaches are so good against most protoss units and so popular that a bunch of early zealots will most likely just get owned. many protosses, such as minigun, will do a push with 1 zealot and 1 stalker while making a ton of sentries at home. make sure to fall back with your guys at around 5:20-5:30, as once roaches start popping you will want to get the hell out of there. when you have 8 or so sentries, expand and get a forge and more gates. you want to get attack upgrades and be constantly putting pressure on your zerg opponent. if he's feeling comfortable, that will allow him to do a zerg's favorite things, expand, spam drones, and of course, muta harass. to take a lesson from iNcontroL, go into 'shark mode.' If a shark stops moving, it dies. If your army stops being active, you will likely die as well. take his watchtower from him, then move around and snipe a creep tumor or two, then pick off a stray overlord and he will not feel safe enough to harass you, and if he does, you have a good chance of running into his mutas, which suck in a straight up fight. If he thinks you are coming to attack his front, he will have to keep his mutas home to defend, which is exactly where you want them. also, never underestimate vision. if you have a bunch of observers around the map, as well as the watch towers, you will see the mutas while they are in the middle of the map, rather than say, your mineral line.
hope that helps! I don't like to get into 'counters' but as you said, phoenix, if you go for them early enough, or stalkers with attack ups/guardian shield support will do a number on his muta ball.
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On February 21 2011 01:04 Gemini_19 wrote:
Storm is in no means bad against roaches like you said. "Templars are great...they're completely useless if the opponent just suddenly spams roach." I'd say anything that deals 80 damage in a splash radius is pretty dam good.
Is that true of Roaches? I thought storm wasnt as effective vs armored and roaches are classed as armoured? or is the reason it never looks as effective in VODS is the fact that Roach/Marauder have more HP than marines as well as being armored?
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On February 21 2011 01:43 BoxedLunch wrote:
firstly, you need to post replays. chances are your biggest problem is macro.
On, topic, you said you do a 4 zeal early push against zerg, which sounds... not good. roaches are so good against most protoss units and so popular that a bunch of early zealots will most likely just get owned. many protosses, such as minigun, will do a push with 1 zealot and 1 stalker while making a ton of sentries at home. make sure to fall back with your guys at around 5:20-5:30, as once roaches start popping you will want to get the hell out of there. when you have 8 or so sentries, expand and get a forge and more gates. you want to get attack upgrades and be constantly putting pressure on your zerg opponent. if he's feeling comfortable, that will allow him to do a zerg's favorite things, expand, spam drones, and of course, muta harass. to take a lesson from iNcontroL, go into 'shark mode.' If a shark stops moving, it dies. If your army stops being active, you will likely die as well. take his watchtower from him, then move around and snipe a creep tumor or two, then pick off a stray overlord and he will not feel safe enough to harass you, and if he does, you have a good chance of running into his mutas, which suck in a straight up fight. If he thinks you are coming to attack his front, he will have to keep his mutas home to defend, which is exactly where you want them. also, never underestimate vision. if you have a bunch of observers around the map, as well as the watch towers, you will see the mutas while they are in the middle of the map, rather than say, your mineral line.
hope that helps! I don't like to get into 'counters' but as you said, phoenix, if you go for them early enough, or stalkers with attack ups/guardian shield support will do a number on his muta ball.
Yeah, my macro is definitely far from impressive. I'm happy if I remember to use my round of warpgates before they've been sat idle for 30-40 secs most of the time.
I'm kind of at a point where I sort've know what I need to do to get better but struggling to put it all together to become better. I watch pro replays for tips, never try to mimic them as their APM makes me fingers bleed and my wrists want to die.
I try to remember to shark mode, after watching the incontrol/khaladas VOD I edited the wallpaper on my 2nd monitor to say:
"1) Probes
2) Chronoboost
3) Scout
4)Units
5)Buildings
6)Shark Mode
7) Expand"
I think I need to start practicing with blink stalkers more.
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On February 21 2011 02:42 ThePinkNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 01:04 Gemini_19 wrote:
Storm is in no means bad against roaches like you said. "Templars are great...they're completely useless if the opponent just suddenly spams roach." I'd say anything that deals 80 damage in a splash radius is pretty dam good.
Is that true of Roaches? I thought storm wasnt as effective vs armored and roaches are classed as armoured? or is the reason it never looks as effective in VODS is the fact that Roach/Marauder have more HP than marines as well as being armored?
Storm does equal damage to everything. The problem is that roaches are so tough and fast (by the time storm tech is out) that they can storm dodge and only lose like 1/5 of their life unless you have massive carpet storms at which point you are wasting energy. Similarly, when P comes out ahead in situations like this, it usually means that the Zerg can spam roaches off 5 hatcheries and hit you before you have energy for a bunch of storms. And archons, while not terrible against roaches, aren't particularly good either.
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On February 21 2011 02:42 ThePinkNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 01:04 Gemini_19 wrote:
Storm is in no means bad against roaches like you said. "Templars are great...they're completely useless if the opponent just suddenly spams roach." I'd say anything that deals 80 damage in a splash radius is pretty dam good.
Is that true of Roaches? I thought storm wasnt as effective vs armored and roaches are classed as armoured? or is the reason it never looks as effective in VODS is the fact that Roach/Marauder have more HP than marines as well as being armored?
Storm does full damage to roaches, however I would still say that people advising you to use roaches vs storm are definitely sending you down the wrong path.
Roaches are very fast so they move out of storms (I assume even at the silver level no one is just letting their roaches sit in a storm) and are reasonably big so you won't hit very many at once. To really use storm effectively vs roach you need to forcefield off a chunk of roaches so they can't just move out, then hit the storms, and have detection as roach burrow will heal as fast as storm does damage.
Furthermore, if the zerg retreats roaches heal so fast that your storm damage will be negated before the next battle.
Coordinating observers/FF/storm and engaging so they cannot retreat is a lot to ask of a silver player and I would say it is definitely the wrong approach.
Your issue to me sounds like scouting.
To combat mutas you need to see the spire BEFORE it completes. If they are going for reasonably early mutas this will generally be around 8-10 minutes depending on how much pressure you put on. Furthermore, if you see a lot of roaches, obviously mutas will be late and likely will never come (they will go roach hydra). If you see nothing but speedlings and spine crawlers, mutas will be out before 10 minutes.
When you see the spire you have 2 options.
1) All in. Most zergs are saving up money/larva for mutas. If you hit them right as the spire pops they will often have almost 1000/1000 in mutas that are morphing in and you're army should be able to roll them. Then the mutas will pop as the rest of their army is dying and you should have no problem finishing them off. You're best bet here is a 2-base 6-gate +1 push. Cut probes at 38 or as soon as you see spire building, whichever is later.
2) Defend. Stalkers do work but blink is MANDATORY. You also need to be very good at watching you minimap, reacting instantly, and I highly recommend building cannons. The slower your reaction time the more cannons are required. Tech to templar with storm and then take a 3rd.
3) Phenoix. If you have good micro and see the spire early enough you can drop 2 ports and get enough phoenix out to combat the mutas. Be careful with your phoenix as if you don't micro them they actually don't do very well vs mutas. The whole time you also need to be constantly scouting for a hydra den going down as you will need to tech switch to collosi very quickly or get rolled.
In my limited experience at the low masters level option 1 is best. I tend to lose more than I win when I try 2 or 3.
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There are many different things you can do. Back when I played toss, I usually got a cannon or two at every min line (usually by that point it was my main and my natural) then I would get blink stalkers out shortly after. Cannons are good but you'd need too many of them once they get a ton of mutalisks. Phoenixes are good but this can lead to them getting corruptors which annihilate phoenixes. Blink stalkers have incredible mobility because of blink, work well against mutalisks, and are good vs roaches making them excellent units in PvZ. In the late game when you have multiple bases and plenty of warpgates, you can quickly react to mutalisks by warping in stalkers at a base where they are harassing. I am not saying that blink stalkers is the only thing you can do, but from my experience as a toss and a pretty new zerg player, blinkers is usually the best way to shut down muta harass.
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Im a silver player here and I do experience a lot of mass muta in PvZ in ladder. Boy do I hate those critters. However, the best response to their muta game is just pressure with your first few units (usually staker and a zealot) esp against an early expand zerg followed by more calculated pressure. I usually send my first few units to get a feel if they are going muta (2 gas in expo) and then kill off a few drones since they have no units to defend (usually just lings in this case, they need to stock gas to go em mutas). This forces the use of larvae for lower tier units like roaches and waste gas in order to defend. I realized that by making them do that, I lessen the ammount of mutas they can produce later (wasted resources, larvae) and thus make them easy to deal with later. Disclaimer though, look into improving your mechanics so you can do this properly (TY Day9!).
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Once you take more than 2 bases and you have trouble defending the bases it's time for some cannons in the mineral line!
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On February 21 2011 03:00 tarath wrote:
2) Defend. Stalkers do work but blink is MANDATORY. You also need to be very good at watching you minimap, reacting instantly, and I highly recommend building cannons. The slower your reaction time the more cannons are required. Tech to templar with storm and then take a 3rd.
I think cannons are mandatory. The stalker army needs to be split up and even with blink it takes a little while to get in position. The cannons force the zerg to either focus-fire probes are engage the cannons. Either way they are taking damage while the stalkers come back to defend.
I've seen a lot of HuK games where HuK will have 3 canons per base and they way he aligns them zones the mutalisks to come in from odd angles if they don't want to take full damage from the cannons immediately.
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I do like the way Huk uses the cannon alignment as well, but if your macro and micro are not up to par there is nothing wrong with getting some phoenixes. You can ever do some great harass with them.
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On February 21 2011 03:00 tarath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 02:42 ThePinkNinja wrote:On February 21 2011 01:04 Gemini_19 wrote:
Storm is in no means bad against roaches like you said. "Templars are great...they're completely useless if the opponent just suddenly spams roach." I'd say anything that deals 80 damage in a splash radius is pretty dam good.
Is that true of Roaches? I thought storm wasnt as effective vs armored and roaches are classed as armoured? or is the reason it never looks as effective in VODS is the fact that Roach/Marauder have more HP than marines as well as being armored? Storm does full damage to roaches, however I would still say that people advising you to use roaches vs storm are definitely sending you down the wrong path. Roaches are very fast so they move out of storms (I assume even at the silver level no one is just letting their roaches sit in a storm) and are reasonably big so you won't hit very many at once. To really use storm effectively vs roach you need to forcefield off a chunk of roaches so they can't just move out, then hit the storms, and have detection as roach burrow will heal as fast as storm does damage. Furthermore, if the zerg retreats roaches heal so fast that your storm damage will be negated before the next battle. Coordinating observers/FF/storm and engaging so they cannot retreat is a lot to ask of a silver player and I would say it is definitely the wrong approach. Your issue to me sounds like scouting. To combat mutas you need to see the spire BEFORE it completes. If they are going for reasonably early mutas this will generally be around 8-10 minutes depending on how much pressure you put on. Furthermore, if you see a lot of roaches, obviously mutas will be late and likely will never come (they will go roach hydra). If you see nothing but speedlings and spine crawlers, mutas will be out before 10 minutes. When you see the spire you have 2 options. 1) All in. Most zergs are saving up money/larva for mutas. If you hit them right as the spire pops they will often have almost 1000/1000 in mutas that are morphing in and you're army should be able to roll them. Then the mutas will pop as the rest of their army is dying and you should have no problem finishing them off. You're best bet here is a 2-base 6-gate +1 push. Cut probes at 38 or as soon as you see spire building, whichever is later. 2) Defend. Stalkers do work but blink is MANDATORY. You also need to be very good at watching you minimap, reacting instantly, and I highly recommend building cannons. The slower your reaction time the more cannons are required. Tech to templar with storm and then take a 3rd. 3) Phenoix. If you have good micro and see the spire early enough you can drop 2 ports and get enough phoenix out to combat the mutas. Be careful with your phoenix as if you don't micro them they actually don't do very well vs mutas. The whole time you also need to be constantly scouting for a hydra den going down as you will need to tech switch to collosi very quickly or get rolled. In my limited experience at the low masters level option 1 is best. I tend to lose more than I win when I try 2 or 3.
Thank you for a nice and well explained answer, next question if you don't mind is how do you scout it at 10 off 6 gateways? a sacrifical zealot will barely make it on to the creep before being surrounded by lings and going 6 gate means no observer. Do you do the hallucinated phoenix route?
Sorry if that question sounded blunt or like sarcasm but it is genuine.
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Just a thing: phoenixes are created extremely fast and with chrono-boost it can be on par with a spawn larvae hatchery.
You don't have to MASS phoenixes, you just need enough to take mutalisks out (phoenixes > mutalisks) and you also need them for support against stalkers.
This is the reason: Typically, when a zerg goes mutalisks, he'll go lings and thus the lings become powerful tanks as well as damage dealers. They kill stalkers really fast when they're a bunch of them. So, to abuse the stalker's slow firing rate, the lings absorb and kill the stalkers while the mutalisks use their high damage bounce attacking to just kill all AA, including stalkers.
That is why you need phoenixes: to be able to have another source of AA.
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On February 21 2011 03:48 ThePinkNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 03:00 tarath wrote:On February 21 2011 02:42 ThePinkNinja wrote:On February 21 2011 01:04 Gemini_19 wrote:
Storm is in no means bad against roaches like you said. "Templars are great...they're completely useless if the opponent just suddenly spams roach." I'd say anything that deals 80 damage in a splash radius is pretty dam good.
Is that true of Roaches? I thought storm wasnt as effective vs armored and roaches are classed as armoured? or is the reason it never looks as effective in VODS is the fact that Roach/Marauder have more HP than marines as well as being armored? Storm does full damage to roaches, however I would still say that people advising you to use roaches vs storm are definitely sending you down the wrong path. Roaches are very fast so they move out of storms (I assume even at the silver level no one is just letting their roaches sit in a storm) and are reasonably big so you won't hit very many at once. To really use storm effectively vs roach you need to forcefield off a chunk of roaches so they can't just move out, then hit the storms, and have detection as roach burrow will heal as fast as storm does damage. Furthermore, if the zerg retreats roaches heal so fast that your storm damage will be negated before the next battle. Coordinating observers/FF/storm and engaging so they cannot retreat is a lot to ask of a silver player and I would say it is definitely the wrong approach. Your issue to me sounds like scouting. To combat mutas you need to see the spire BEFORE it completes. If they are going for reasonably early mutas this will generally be around 8-10 minutes depending on how much pressure you put on. Furthermore, if you see a lot of roaches, obviously mutas will be late and likely will never come (they will go roach hydra). If you see nothing but speedlings and spine crawlers, mutas will be out before 10 minutes. When you see the spire you have 2 options. 1) All in. Most zergs are saving up money/larva for mutas. If you hit them right as the spire pops they will often have almost 1000/1000 in mutas that are morphing in and you're army should be able to roll them. Then the mutas will pop as the rest of their army is dying and you should have no problem finishing them off. You're best bet here is a 2-base 6-gate +1 push. Cut probes at 38 or as soon as you see spire building, whichever is later. 2) Defend. Stalkers do work but blink is MANDATORY. You also need to be very good at watching you minimap, reacting instantly, and I highly recommend building cannons. The slower your reaction time the more cannons are required. Tech to templar with storm and then take a 3rd. 3) Phenoix. If you have good micro and see the spire early enough you can drop 2 ports and get enough phoenix out to combat the mutas. Be careful with your phoenix as if you don't micro them they actually don't do very well vs mutas. The whole time you also need to be constantly scouting for a hydra den going down as you will need to tech switch to collosi very quickly or get rolled. In my limited experience at the low masters level option 1 is best. I tend to lose more than I win when I try 2 or 3. Thank you for a nice and well explained answer, next question if you don't mind is how do you scout it at 10 off 6 gateways? a sacrifical zealot will barely make it on to the creep before being surrounded by lings and going 6 gate means no observer. Do you do the hallucinated phoenix route? Sorry if that question sounded blunt or like sarcasm but it is genuine.
You can sort of get an idea depending on what kind of units he's getting as well. If you only see lings he's probably saving up gas for his muta.
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Hmm so it sounds like I need to stink to my blinkies but cannon up my mineral line a bit better. Would you recommend doing that even if haven't scouted the muta yet? to help defend a nydus or OL drop (something I've honestly not come across at silver level yet)?
I get such confusing and contradicting answers from watching dif pro replays and commentary with some people being totally anti static defence and some people being all for it.
I suppose I should go for it because it allows me time to react and move my units to defend.
Thank you all who've responded so far
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On February 21 2011 03:48 ThePinkNinja wrote:
Thank you for a nice and well explained answer, next question if you don't mind is how do you scout it at 10 off 6 gateways? a sacrifical zealot will barely make it on to the creep before being surrounded by lings and going 6 gate means no observer. Do you do the hallucinated phoenix route?
Sorry if that question sounded blunt or like sarcasm but it is genuine.
The composition of the zerg army (roaches vs lings/spines) is a big tell. But generally a hallucinated phoenix is needed.
Also keep in mind the spire finishes at 8-10 so you need to do you scouting well before that as you want to spot it building.
If you go 3-gate expand or FFE you can usually scout with hallucination after you are on 4-gates (on 2 bases) and then build a robo or 2 more gates depending on if you see spire or not.
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On February 21 2011 03:53 ThePinkNinja wrote:Hmm so it sounds like I need to stink to my blinkies but cannon up my mineral line a bit better. Would you recommend doing that even if haven't scouted the muta yet? to help defend a nydus or OL drop (something I've honestly not come across at silver level yet)? I get such confusing and contradicting answers from watching dif pro replays and commentary with some people being totally anti static defence and some people being all for it. I suppose I should go for it because it allows me time to react and move my units to defend. Thank you all who've responded so far
You definitely should not cannon your mineral lines unless you're pretty sure the zerg is going for mutalisks, but once they start massing up a good number of mutas 4-5 cannons per base is perfectly acceptable.
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Everyone in this topic has given great advice. A few things that might help:
You need some sort of scouting, either with an observer, phoenix, or hallucination (If you are missing that many warp ins, the cost of hallucination isn't going to make or break your army). Look for an especially early 2nd gas. It means a very tech heavy play and fast lair. Double points if you don't see a roach warren. Since most roach hydra players start roach and only move into hyrdas once they have a meat shield to protect them, you can assume that they are going mutas.
Once you know he is going mutas, you need to get your upgrades going ASAP. Its your call if you want to get +1 attack so your zealots can 2 shot lings, or to get +1 armor. I prefer armor because of how much it reduces the muta's bouncing damage and speedling's fast attacks. A muta attacking a group of marines deals 13 damage/attack. A muta attacking a group of +1 armor stalkers deals just 8 damage. Throw in guardian shield, and they are down to just 5 damage.
Since you scouted his spire, (you did get your observer or hallucinated phoenix right?) you've got a choice to make. You can attack just as the spire finishes, with zealots, sentries, and at least 7-8 stalkers, and force him to waste his first mutas trying to kill of your army at his base. Mutas are pretty terrible strait up fighting units unless they are in a huge group. He should have an army of only speedlings, with 3-6 mutas about to pop. Just keep your stalkers close to your zealots, be careful with your forcefields, and you'll have completely shut down his first wave of harass. By comparison, losing those 5 mutas is like if you lost your first 2 colossi right before you were going to push in.
Ideally, you'll have your twilight council up, working on blink, 5-6 gateways, your forge working on, or finishing your 2nd upgrade, and a place picked out for your 3rd. If the zerg missed a few transfuse larva, or didn't keep an eye on his mini map, you could just win with this attack. Otherwise, you'll be well ahead. Throw down your 3rd, get up a templar archive and throw down an extra cannon at each nexus. You're now equal or ahead in ups, ahead in tech, equal or ahead in bases, and as long as you don't just let him sit and macro for 5 minutes, you'll stay ahead in army.
Your other option is to throw down two stargates and beat him in the air. Frankly, this isn't my forte, so I'll just say that it is an option that's out there.
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EPT
