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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
Also, they are great to pick off Zealots/HT's. When I was playing T back in the Beta and early release, I was always Meching against Protoss and Hellions helped me alot to gain Mapcontrol, harrass, scout etc. Besides, they are the only Mineral-sink for a Meching Terran. Also, as a little Gimmick, they can help defend against DT's by attacking one of you're Units and use the Splash to DMG the DT. Got me at least one win I can remember on the Ladder. ^^' | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
On February 16 2011 03:12 Alejandrisha wrote: yeah kcdc terrans don't like when you tell them that anything but mass bio and medivacs or banshee all ins are viable. like when you tell them thors are good in the mid-late game mixed in with your bio.. nothing new xD The reason most terrans don't use factory units is pretty simple. While hellions/tanks/thors are really good units versus protoss, they aren't really compatible with bio. Simply stated: bio only works with bio and mech only works with mech. There are of course exceptions to this rule, it may, for example, be beneficial to mix in some hellions or tanks into your bioball. As a main army component, however, it won't work. Why ? Well, first there is upgrades, bio and mech both need a completely different set of upgrades. Next, there is production facilities. Having an only Barracks or Factory composition allows for much more flexibility in army composition. Need more marines ? No problem, those techlab rax can also build marines. Factories can't. And lastly, and most importantly, there is mobility. Apart from the early game, bio only works because of their mobility. Being able to kite zealots and dodge storms is the only thing that keeps bio viable in the lategame. If you have an immobile component in your army, say tanks or thors, you lose that advantage. Having to fall back to dodge a storm or kite zealots instantly results in the immobile part of your army being left behind. While in theory, hellion/bio might work, i've never really seen it work. TL;DR: Bio works only with Bio, Mech only with Mech. Bio is stronger early game, so most terrans start bio and cannot transition, so you mostly see bio. | ||
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NoDDiE
Poland170 Posts
idea is that you need fact to get port, and unless you want to use it to scout//make addons it wont have much to do. thats why making 3-4-5 hellions can help a lot. usually it happens when i try to make one base attack after initial pressure. then p focus on def - get exe and immortall//sentry, try to get colo. and thats best time to attack 3 medivac 5 hellion bunsh of mm is DEADLY at that point. and in micro battles those few hellions help a lot - you can snipe some sentry, force making ff before main engagment, slip 2 hellions into mineral line to distract. and in the main battle they are DEADLY vs zealots. so usually its better to get them since your fact wont have much alternative... | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
That said, Hellions can be very strong in TvP if used properly. Combined with harass potential, they are fantastic to mix in against a zealot/high templar mix late game. Hellions are so fast that you can easily run around sniping high templars and demolishing zealots. Against a deathball, they can defeat the zealots, but they typically have more stalkers in them due to having to deal with vikings to protect the colossi. Thus, hellions aren't quite so strong here. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
In TvP they seem to synergize well with thors/tanks and ghosts, but I haven't worked the composition enough to know for sure. The theorycraft basis of this is that the main threats to thors and tanks (chargelots and immortals) are handled by hellions and ghosts respectively, and the rest falls into place, but it's a bit of a challenge to get this running effectively. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
I think the flamethrower AOE could be a little shorter but also wider: this would weaken the effect of hellion harass on workers, as workers tend to clump in straight lines. It would also make them more effective when engaging in an army vs army situation, especially when tanking masses of light units. Right now I feel like their harass is a little too good yet they feel kinda inefficient in bigger fights. | ||
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underdawg
United States399 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
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gejfsyd
Poland156 Posts
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gejfsyd
Poland156 Posts
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
Hellions needed to kill X Stalkers with respective unit costs: 3 - 1 (300 vs 175) 4 - 2 (400 vs 350) 6 - 3 (600 vs 525) 7 - 4 (700 vs 700) ! 8 - 5 (800 vs 875) 9 - 6 (900 vs 1050) ... 14 - 10 (1400 vs 1750) So actually, more than 7 hellions are cost effective vs stalkers. This is not taking into account micro though - which can obviously work both ways. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On February 16 2011 03:39 Lurk wrote: The reason most terrans don't use factory units is pretty simple. While hellions/tanks/thors are really good units versus protoss, they aren't really compatible with bio. Simply stated: bio only works with bio and mech only works with mech. There are of course exceptions to this rule, it may, for example, be beneficial to mix in some hellions or tanks into your bioball. As a main army component, however, it won't work. Why ? Well, first there is upgrades, bio and mech both need a completely different set of upgrades. Next, there is production facilities. Having an only Barracks or Factory composition allows for much more flexibility in army composition. Need more marines ? No problem, those techlab rax can also build marines. Factories can't. And lastly, and most importantly, there is mobility. Apart from the early game, bio only works because of their mobility. Being able to kite zealots and dodge storms is the only thing that keeps bio viable in the lategame. If you have an immobile component in your army, say tanks or thors, you lose that advantage. Having to fall back to dodge a storm or kite zealots instantly results in the immobile part of your army being left behind. While in theory, hellion/bio might work, i've never really seen it work. TL;DR: Bio works only with Bio, Mech only with Mech. Bio is stronger early game, so most terrans start bio and cannot transition, so you mostly see bio. Mmmm....hellions are really fast bro. You might not want to mix hellions into your bio because they require separate upgrades, but mobility isn't an issue. Ignitor hellions supplement a marauder ball in a similar way that marines would--they provide DPS vs light which marauders lack. There are some critical differences tho--marines hit air and can be healed by medivacs, while hellions are better in harass, don't get half of their DPS soaked up by guardian shield+armor upgrades, and are much stronger against high templar. IMO, after P has storm+amulet, T should try to replace as much of their marine composition with hellions as possible. | ||
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desRow
Canada2654 Posts
 good point op | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
They're great for taking down shields from immortals/ doing AoE damage on zealots/stalkers/sentries/DTs/HTs and preventing people from using probes to defend all-in with a mix of marauders/marines ( probes die instantly to the AoE ) kind of unfortunate that you can't stop the auto cast on them other than the direction they're facing you can add tanks ( AoE ) If only they would add Ion thruster upgrade with spidermines... | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
On February 16 2011 07:01 kcdc wrote:Mmmm....hellions are really fast bro. You might not want to mix hellions into your bio because they require separate upgrades, but mobility isn't an issue. Ignitor hellions supplement a marauder ball in a similar way that marines would--they provide DPS vs light which marauders lack. There are some critical differences tho--marines hit air and can be healed by medivacs, while hellions are better in harass, don't get half of their DPS soaked up by guardian shield+armor upgrades, and are much stronger against high templar. IMO, after P has storm+amulet, T should try to replace as much of their marine composition with hellions as possible. I specifically excluded hellion/bio from the "not compatible" list. As i said it should theoretically be possible, but i've never gotten it to work/ seen a good replay featuring it. Edit: I'm not talking openers here but mid-/ lategame compositions. Obviously a lot of stuff works early game that doesn't anymore when toss has 2+ base with coll/templar. | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
On February 16 2011 06:47 Lurk wrote: A quick unit tester did reveal astonishing information :O Hellions needed to kill X Stalkers with respective unit costs: 3 - 1 (300 vs 175) 4 - 2 (400 vs 350) 6 - 3 (600 vs 525) 7 - 4 (700 vs 700) ! 8 - 5 (800 vs 875) 9 - 6 (900 vs 1050) ... 14 - 10 (1400 vs 1750) So actually, more than 7 hellions are cost effective vs stalkers. This is not taking into account micro though - which can obviously work both ways. I am amazed :D... Have always considered hellions as those "speical" unit on my hotkey to do poking and choose enagment with only light unit, seems like i better cut marines entirely and spend all my spare minerals on hellions. considering they are viable in big numbers vs any gateway unit... if 14 hellions wins 10 stalkers, what would be the results after these stalkers will be EMPed?  | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
Whats the real strength of Prottos army? Their "ball" Their unity Their clamp up of strong units on few crowding "pixels" Which means - The more terran get AOE damage, the better he'll deal with toss. Lets look on AOE damage by terran 1. Seige tanks 2. Thors vs air 3. Ghost EMP and now, as we see: 4. Hellions on +7 count r also viable. You just make your puzzle ... | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On February 16 2011 01:37 SiegeFlank wrote: I've been having a great amount of success on the ladder with mech vs Protoss. Hellions are a very important unit to keep producing as they have a lot of roles. They're great at scouting ahead so that you can determine how slowly you need to be leapfrogging your tanks, they're excellent at harassing expos (which is key because a good protoss knows to aggressively expand against the immobile mech army), and they make a great buffer zone for your tanks. Hellions will shred apart any and all zealots the protoss throws at you, and your tanks can have free shots over the rest of the protoss army as they try to break through the hellion buffer. +1. Just like how vultures played the role of being the meat shield/buffer to the tank line, hellions play the same role. I guess the pre ginitor upgrade sort of acts as the replacement for the mine AOE dmg, but still Id take mines over that. Also people who are trying to mech will realise that upgrading both weps/armor as fast as you can makes a worlds difference. 3-3 mech is quite scary, i mean a single hellion is doing what, 8+6+10+4+4+4 = 36 dmg to light units.. | ||
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danielsan
Romania399 Posts
On February 16 2011 06:47 Lurk wrote: A quick unit tester did reveal astonishing information :O Hellions needed to kill X Stalkers with respective unit costs: 3 - 1 (300 vs 175) 4 - 2 (400 vs 350) 6 - 3 (600 vs 525) 7 - 4 (700 vs 700) ! 8 - 5 (800 vs 875) 9 - 6 (900 vs 1050) ... 14 - 10 (1400 vs 1750) So actually, more than 7 hellions are cost effective vs stalkers. This is not taking into account micro though - which can obviously work both ways. unless you intentionally position stalkers to receive full aoe dmg, that's not possbile | ||
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valheru
Australia966 Posts
In TvT I use iEchoic (god bless that awesome bastard for ending the chess game from hell) In TvZ I use standard marine tank but I can see the use of hellions in TvP I use a Marauder/Hellion/Viking/Ghost/Medivac mix and hellions kill the shit out of sentries, zealots and HTs. I don't know if this is a good idea but I've been toying with it. You have your army as above, and sac the hellions to kill the HTs/Sentries + ambient splash damage, so then it's gateway+collosus you have to kill with MM and Ghost Viking which you should win since there are no FFs. It's kinda like an expensive EMP that hit's everything, I'm not sure if it's cost effective though. | ||
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