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First of all, forgive me for my bad english, and i hope u'll understand and get to the bottom of my thoughts..
Lets talk about HELLIONS,
![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081221031721/starcraft/images/5/50/Hellion_SC2_DevGame1.jpg) .
Alot of the hottest builds today including iechonic's have been talking and including the usage of hellions.
Here r a few reasons i would like to mention why they r so awsome.
1. Speed - Hellions r the fastest unit terran has, therefore they might take the role of "speedlings" in ur terran army composition for map control vs proxy buildings and poking scout.
Yes, their demage is really poor vs non-light, but their speed enables them to choose their confrontation and microed well vs those unit (Zealots, Ht, Dt, Sentries) light they should be engaging and dodging storms.
2. Haras potentional - I dont want to get into balance issues, but every terran knows that in a game vs tos, harrasment, denying and slowing the production of toss "death ball" is very necessary.
Theres nothing deadlier for minearl line then blue flame hellions melting probes instantly with 1 shot. While a drop of few maras will be quite easly stoped with a quick warpin, 4 blue flame hellions can take a full mineral line before warp finish.
Therefore, no matter on what stage u're in the game having blueflame hellions can be always usefull even if toss unit compisition is all air.
3. Eco convenient - Again, not intresting into getting to balance issues, but teched toss ground army is the deadliest, and that happens alot beacause of his eco convenient unit composition with gas heavy unit and spare minerals on chargelots. these chargelots are extremely powerfull and effective with alot of DPS and HP vs mech and bio.
Well, guess whats pretty good vs chraglots...Yeap, hellions, and not only they r a strong counter to zealots, they are also eco convenient as much as zealots with no gas cost.
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I have posted this thread just to open those eyes of the newer terran players who just denying the usage of hellions cuz they "just sucks vs armored".
As i see it, hellion is a supporter unit on tvp with alot of haras potentional that as i mentiond is very necessary.
As much as toss will go for more heavy zealots HTs combination (that terran having real hard time facing vs) i'll get my hellions count bigger. The spare gas will go for maras ghosts if i m bio, or thors tanks if i m mech.
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I like hellions don't get me wrong but they're inferior to vultures. No mines, no bonus damage applied to shields, slower, and 20 minerals more expensive makes them less useful vs toss than in BW. Hellions have their place but I wouldn't get carried away with them, they get eaten alive by storm, colossus, and stalkers. Pretty much the key to why mech worked in TvP in BW was mines, I think if hellions had even a single mine it would make mech reasonable (though the charge mechanic on zealots would make it more difficult as they'll drag mines ontop of you).
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You just don't want to mass them, at least what I've done was just sac all my Zealots and switch to Blink Stalker/Templar/Immortal, kinda leaves Terran in an awkward position if they tried to get too many Hellions.
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On February 15 2011 20:45 dohgg wrote:
First of all, forgive me for my bad english, and i hope u'll understand and get to the bottom of my thoughts..
Your English seems to be fine, except a few typos and many failures to use the words "you" and "are".
I really think hellions are very strong in TvP as harassment/support units. Especially with blue flame, they can wreck mineral lines in no time, and they can also demolish zealots and snipe high templars.
They're an effective mineral sink for a gas intensive build so they fit well into a lot of build orders.
They're also useful for map control (xel'naga towers and scouting for expansions)... I think it's always good to get a few hellions but using a lot of them is pretty situational - that is, if your opponent is going for heavy stalker, robotics or stargate play, they're not as useful as if you scout a zealot-heavy composition.
Late game blueflame hellions are very good, just keeping a few around near the protoss army is very good, as protosses will often have large clumps of HTs just begging to be roasted. Also a protoss on many bases will sometimes not build cannons diligently enough to defend hellions harassing probe lines.
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The thing is that minerals is the critical resource when dealing with early toss. If you spend 500+ on an early hellion drops you'll be having trouble defending the inevitable counterpush. Early hellion drop is a kind of all in imo.
As soon as the toss relies on units like stalker, collossus, voids or carriers the hellions become useless - And that happans every game. The hellion becomes a worthless mineral sink. Sure having a few for scouting and harassment is good but by no means do I build a raector on my fac i TvP.
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Unfortunately helions will never fit in with marine/marauders because in a normal game if I'm constantly spending my money well I already have barely enough to produce anything more. If anything, I'd incorporate ravens or banshees to any terran mix vs protoss, which I'm starting to do now.
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I really like the idea of using a lot of hellions, esp. as harass against protoss, unless you have units there at the mineral line, those hellions are going to do damage, because as you said, the warpin time give the hellions the few seconds they need to decimate probes! =]
+ Show Spoiler +On February 15 2011 20:58 revy wrote:
I like hellions don't get me wrong but they're inferior to vultures. No mines, no bonus damage applied to shields, slower, and 20 minerals more expensive makes them less useful vs toss than in BW. Hellions have their place but I wouldn't get carried away with them, they get eaten alive by storm, colossus, and stalkers. Pretty much the key to why mech worked in TvP in BW was mines, I think if hellions had even a single mine it would make mech reasonable (though the charge mechanic on zealots would make it more difficult as they'll drag mines ontop of you). i think you misread his post. he wasn't talking about brood war.
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hellions are actually pretty good, on bigger maps you'll always want to have those fast, cheap and good vs harvesters units. in big numbers they do very well vs protoss gateway units too, can dodge storms quite easily, only collosus and blink own them.
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hellions are good at this time because P are dumb enough to never place canons in mineral lines so you can easily catch them with their pants down and destroy 20 probes at once.
once they'll do that and learn not to run all their workers in a line, hellions will be next to useless again.
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I tried useing allot of blue flame helins in TvP a while back. I really found very little use for them in a bio army other than harassment. All that gass spent getting factories to get heleins really really slows you down, it make it allot harder to get an econ up.
Also lake of AA can get you killed. and marines do more DPS across the board than helions.
yes they can ne good for harass but to me they seem like a worse choice than mainres unless you are going for a mech play.
Always look to take away froma build not add, it allows you to exspand faster.
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On February 15 2011 21:26 emidanRKO wrote:
Unfortunately helions will never fit in with marine/marauders because in a normal game if I'm constantly spending my money well I already have barely enough to produce anything more. If anything, I'd incorporate ravens or banshees to any terran mix vs protoss, which I'm starting to do now.
Usally on to mid-late game when i play bio, i neglect the useage of marines cuz of their low hp and weak survival vs colos and storms, and these spare minerals will go for hellions, while all my bio compostion will be focused on Maras ghosts.
I'll probbaly wont get more then 5-7 hellions into the mix tho. 5 blue flame hellions with their splash damage will be able to deal with a bunch on zealots easly.
About micro with bio, before a big engagment of armies, i'll also make constant poking with hellions.
Chargelots AI will make them charge my hellions and get out of his scary deathball, therefore will be a lil gap where u will be able to roast them up and not get attacked by stalkers.
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this is future of TVP look at this cool gameplay...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBNEw8rlvao&feature=feedlik
hellions + siege tanks are great combo + wikings..but there is one problem terran i think need buff with mecha simply something missing...
maby ravens baff of point difens drones or something; ) hope in future more mecha less bio gameplay...
problem with terran MMM(bio play) is in beging is too good but after mid game they are ok(less good) mid game( mecha is much beter) and late game MMm is ofc bad... so i think blizz will need to fix (made better mecha play) becous MMM work only in the biginging and in bigining of mid game...but after you get some t3 mmm is worthles...
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On February 15 2011 21:39 bole wrote:
this is future of TVP look at this cool gameplay...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBNEw8rlvao&feature=feedlik
hellions + siege tanks are great combo + wikings..but there is one problem terran i think need buff with mecha simply something missing...
maby ravens baff of point difens drones or something; ) hope in future more mecha less bio gameplay...
problem with terran MMM(bio play) is in beging is too good but after mid game they are ok(less good) mid game( mecha is much beter) and late game MMm is ofc bad... so i think blizz will need to fix (made better mecha play) becous MMM work only in the biginging and in bigining of mid game...but after you get some t3 mmm is worthles...
Very nice, but i really think he should have transit into more thor heavy with 250mm cannon with hellions.
Thors on 3/3 r just insane... and storms would have been much less effective...
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On February 15 2011 21:39 bole wrote:
problem with terran MMM(bio play) is in beging is too good but after mid game they are ok(less good) mid game( mecha is much beter) and late game MMm is ofc bad... so i think blizz will need to fix (made better mecha play) becous MMM work only in the biginging and in bigining of mid game...but after you get some t3 mmm is worthles...
Well that's kinda how it's supposed to be, if MMM was as strong late game as it is early game then what's the point of ever teching?
Anyway, I really like hellions in TvP. I saw qxc do something in the TLOpen with a marine/hellion/marauder push that was really really good. Lots of people don't realize how good they are against sentries too. I think I'm going to be using them a lot more in the future, especially early game.
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problem with terran MMM(bio play) is in beging is too good but after mid game they are ok(less good) mid game( mecha is much beter) and late game MMm is ofc bad... so i think blizz will need to fix (made better mecha play) becous MMM work only in the biginging and in bigining of mid game...but after you get some t3 mmm is worthles...
Well that's kinda how it's supposed to be, if MMM was as strong late game as it is early game then what's the point of ever teching?
yes i agree ofc MMM is to powerfull in my opinion eaven now ... they ofc should work early game..and not mid or late game..
but mid late game i think terran need some buff in mecha simply (exemple ravens have to meny good spells but they have duration)
hope with new maps they give us some new balance (for terran especialy) terran mid and late game need to be smuther and they have problem agenst zergs and toss on larger maps...blizz need to fix mid and late game terrans..in my op...
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mmm will never be powerfull vs a good micro forcefiled player imo..
every time mmm will try to engage a choked narrow path its kinda game over with good forcfileds and zealots.
The real strentgh of mmm imo, is by droping. the support of a med to 4 stimmed maras on an edgy side of the map is awsome.
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On February 15 2011 23:28 dohgg wrote:
mmm will never be powerfull vs a good micro forcefiled player imo..
every time mmm will try to engage a choked narrow path its kinda game over with good forcfileds and zealots.
The real strentgh of mmm imo, is by droping. the support of a med to 4 stimmed maras on an edgy side of the map is awsome.
m8 mmm is to powerfull (stimed ofc) how you can difith mmm with force fealds ? on what lvl of play ? simply MMM distroys everything toss have in t1 or (t2 imortals) ...and after you get t3 HTs they you destroy easy MMM like it should be...or coloss..
whay terran go MMM simply becous some things in mecha gameplay dont work like it should...
exemple siege tanks + hellions + wikings is great...but there is something missing maby buffing some things like ravens difens drons or something can buff mech a litle..
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Damage against heavy is fine in large numbers due to splash. Try 30 hellions vs 20 stalkers. They're not really food efficient, but they're cost efficient.
Another example is the iEchoic TvT, the hellions do fine against mass marauder. 5 hellions vs 5 marauders is obviously not close, but 20 hellions vs 20 marauders is and you can build hellions out of reactors.
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On February 15 2011 21:20 Cibron wrote:
The thing is that minerals is the critical resource when dealing with early toss. If you spend 500+ on an early hellion drops you'll be having trouble defending the inevitable counterpush. Early hellion drop is a kind of all in imo.
As soon as the toss relies on units like stalker, collossus, voids or carriers the hellions become useless - And that happans every game. The hellion becomes a worthless mineral sink. Sure having a few for scouting and harassment is good but by no means do I build a raector on my fac i TvP.
Well if you retreat with most of your stuff, they can roast the zealots in that early push.
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EPT
