First of all, forgive me for my bad english, and i hope u'll understand and get to the bottom of my thoughts..
Lets talk about HELLIONS, .
Alot of the hottest builds today including iechonic's have been talking and including the usage of hellions.
Here r a few reasons i would like to mention why they r so awsome.
1. Speed - Hellions r the fastest unit terran has, therefore they might take the role of "speedlings" in ur terran army composition for map control vs proxy buildings and poking scout.
Yes, their demage is really poor vs non-light, but their speed enables them to choose their confrontation and microed well vs those unit (Zealots, Ht, Dt, Sentries) light they should be engaging and dodging storms.
2. Haras potentional - I dont want to get into balance issues, but every terran knows that in a game vs tos, harrasment, denying and slowing the production of toss "death ball" is very necessary.
Theres nothing deadlier for minearl line then blue flame hellions melting probes instantly with 1 shot. While a drop of few maras will be quite easly stoped with a quick warpin, 4 blue flame hellions can take a full mineral line before warp finish.
Therefore, no matter on what stage u're in the game having blueflame hellions can be always usefull even if toss unit compisition is all air.
3. Eco convenient - Again, not intresting into getting to balance issues, but teched toss ground army is the deadliest, and that happens alot beacause of his eco convenient unit composition with gas heavy unit and spare minerals on chargelots. these chargelots are extremely powerfull and effective with alot of DPS and HP vs mech and bio.
Well, guess whats pretty good vs chraglots...Yeap, hellions, and not only they r a strong counter to zealots, they are also eco convenient as much as zealots with no gas cost.
I have posted this thread just to open those eyes of the newer terran players who just denying the usage of hellions cuz they "just sucks vs armored".
As i see it, hellion is a supporter unit on tvp with alot of haras potentional that as i mentiond is very necessary.
As much as toss will go for more heavy zealots HTs combination (that terran having real hard time facing vs) i'll get my hellions count bigger. The spare gas will go for maras ghosts if i m bio, or thors tanks if i m mech.
I like hellions don't get me wrong but they're inferior to vultures. No mines, no bonus damage applied to shields, slower, and 20 minerals more expensive makes them less useful vs toss than in BW. Hellions have their place but I wouldn't get carried away with them, they get eaten alive by storm, colossus, and stalkers. Pretty much the key to why mech worked in TvP in BW was mines, I think if hellions had even a single mine it would make mech reasonable (though the charge mechanic on zealots would make it more difficult as they'll drag mines ontop of you).
You just don't want to mass them, at least what I've done was just sac all my Zealots and switch to Blink Stalker/Templar/Immortal, kinda leaves Terran in an awkward position if they tried to get too many Hellions.
On February 15 2011 20:45 dohgg wrote: First of all, forgive me for my bad english, and i hope u'll understand and get to the bottom of my thoughts..
Your English seems to be fine, except a few typos and many failures to use the words "you" and "are".
I really think hellions are very strong in TvP as harassment/support units. Especially with blue flame, they can wreck mineral lines in no time, and they can also demolish zealots and snipe high templars. They're an effective mineral sink for a gas intensive build so they fit well into a lot of build orders. They're also useful for map control (xel'naga towers and scouting for expansions)... I think it's always good to get a few hellions but using a lot of them is pretty situational - that is, if your opponent is going for heavy stalker, robotics or stargate play, they're not as useful as if you scout a zealot-heavy composition. Late game blueflame hellions are very good, just keeping a few around near the protoss army is very good, as protosses will often have large clumps of HTs just begging to be roasted. Also a protoss on many bases will sometimes not build cannons diligently enough to defend hellions harassing probe lines.
The thing is that minerals is the critical resource when dealing with early toss. If you spend 500+ on an early hellion drops you'll be having trouble defending the inevitable counterpush. Early hellion drop is a kind of all in imo.
As soon as the toss relies on units like stalker, collossus, voids or carriers the hellions become useless - And that happans every game. The hellion becomes a worthless mineral sink. Sure having a few for scouting and harassment is good but by no means do I build a raector on my fac i TvP.
Unfortunately helions will never fit in with marine/marauders because in a normal game if I'm constantly spending my money well I already have barely enough to produce anything more. If anything, I'd incorporate ravens or banshees to any terran mix vs protoss, which I'm starting to do now.
I really like the idea of using a lot of hellions, esp. as harass against protoss, unless you have units there at the mineral line, those hellions are going to do damage, because as you said, the warpin time give the hellions the few seconds they need to decimate probes! =]
On February 15 2011 20:58 revy wrote: I like hellions don't get me wrong but they're inferior to vultures. No mines, no bonus damage applied to shields, slower, and 20 minerals more expensive makes them less useful vs toss than in BW. Hellions have their place but I wouldn't get carried away with them, they get eaten alive by storm, colossus, and stalkers. Pretty much the key to why mech worked in TvP in BW was mines, I think if hellions had even a single mine it would make mech reasonable (though the charge mechanic on zealots would make it more difficult as they'll drag mines ontop of you).
i think you misread his post. he wasn't talking about brood war.
hellions are actually pretty good, on bigger maps you'll always want to have those fast, cheap and good vs harvesters units. in big numbers they do very well vs protoss gateway units too, can dodge storms quite easily, only collosus and blink own them.
hellions are good at this time because P are dumb enough to never place canons in mineral lines so you can easily catch them with their pants down and destroy 20 probes at once.
once they'll do that and learn not to run all their workers in a line, hellions will be next to useless again.
I tried useing allot of blue flame helins in TvP a while back. I really found very little use for them in a bio army other than harassment. All that gass spent getting factories to get heleins really really slows you down, it make it allot harder to get an econ up. Also lake of AA can get you killed. and marines do more DPS across the board than helions. yes they can ne good for harass but to me they seem like a worse choice than mainres unless you are going for a mech play. Always look to take away froma build not add, it allows you to exspand faster.
On February 15 2011 21:26 emidanRKO wrote: Unfortunately helions will never fit in with marine/marauders because in a normal game if I'm constantly spending my money well I already have barely enough to produce anything more. If anything, I'd incorporate ravens or banshees to any terran mix vs protoss, which I'm starting to do now.
Usally on to mid-late game when i play bio, i neglect the useage of marines cuz of their low hp and weak survival vs colos and storms, and these spare minerals will go for hellions, while all my bio compostion will be focused on Maras ghosts.
I'll probbaly wont get more then 5-7 hellions into the mix tho. 5 blue flame hellions with their splash damage will be able to deal with a bunch on zealots easly.
About micro with bio, before a big engagment of armies, i'll also make constant poking with hellions. Chargelots AI will make them charge my hellions and get out of his scary deathball, therefore will be a lil gap where u will be able to roast them up and not get attacked by stalkers.
this is future of TVP look at this cool gameplay...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBNEw8rlvao&feature=feedlik
hellions + siege tanks are great combo + wikings..but there is one problem terran i think need buff with mecha simply something missing...
maby ravens baff of point difens drones or something; ) hope in future more mecha less bio gameplay...
problem with terran MMM(bio play) is in beging is too good but after mid game they are ok(less good) mid game( mecha is much beter) and late game MMm is ofc bad... so i think blizz will need to fix (made better mecha play) becous MMM work only in the biginging and in bigining of mid game...but after you get some t3 mmm is worthles...
On February 15 2011 21:39 bole wrote: this is future of TVP look at this cool gameplay...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBNEw8rlvao&feature=feedlik
hellions + siege tanks are great combo + wikings..but there is one problem terran i think need buff with mecha simply something missing...
maby ravens baff of point difens drones or something; ) hope in future more mecha less bio gameplay...
problem with terran MMM(bio play) is in beging is too good but after mid game they are ok(less good) mid game( mecha is much beter) and late game MMm is ofc bad... so i think blizz will need to fix (made better mecha play) becous MMM work only in the biginging and in bigining of mid game...but after you get some t3 mmm is worthles...
Very nice, but i really think he should have transit into more thor heavy with 250mm cannon with hellions.
Thors on 3/3 r just insane... and storms would have been much less effective...
problem with terran MMM(bio play) is in beging is too good but after mid game they are ok(less good) mid game( mecha is much beter) and late game MMm is ofc bad... so i think blizz will need to fix (made better mecha play) becous MMM work only in the biginging and in bigining of mid game...but after you get some t3 mmm is worthles...
Well that's kinda how it's supposed to be, if MMM was as strong late game as it is early game then what's the point of ever teching?
Anyway, I really like hellions in TvP. I saw qxc do something in the TLOpen with a marine/hellion/marauder push that was really really good. Lots of people don't realize how good they are against sentries too. I think I'm going to be using them a lot more in the future, especially early game.
problem with terran MMM(bio play) is in beging is too good but after mid game they are ok(less good) mid game( mecha is much beter) and late game MMm is ofc bad... so i think blizz will need to fix (made better mecha play) becous MMM work only in the biginging and in bigining of mid game...but after you get some t3 mmm is worthles...
Well that's kinda how it's supposed to be, if MMM was as strong late game as it is early game then what's the point of ever teching?
yes i agree ofc MMM is to powerfull in my opinion eaven now ... they ofc should work early game..and not mid or late game..
but mid late game i think terran need some buff in mecha simply (exemple ravens have to meny good spells but they have duration)
hope with new maps they give us some new balance (for terran especialy) terran mid and late game need to be smuther and they have problem agenst zergs and toss on larger maps...blizz need to fix mid and late game terrans..in my op...
On February 15 2011 23:28 dohgg wrote: mmm will never be powerfull vs a good micro forcefiled player imo..
every time mmm will try to engage a choked narrow path its kinda game over with good forcfileds and zealots.
The real strentgh of mmm imo, is by droping. the support of a med to 4 stimmed maras on an edgy side of the map is awsome.
m8 mmm is to powerfull (stimed ofc) how you can difith mmm with force fealds ? on what lvl of play ? simply MMM distroys everything toss have in t1 or (t2 imortals) ...and after you get t3 HTs they you destroy easy MMM like it should be...or coloss..
whay terran go MMM simply becous some things in mecha gameplay dont work like it should...
exemple siege tanks + hellions + wikings is great...but there is something missing maby buffing some things like ravens difens drons or something can buff mech a litle..
Damage against heavy is fine in large numbers due to splash. Try 30 hellions vs 20 stalkers. They're not really food efficient, but they're cost efficient.
Another example is the iEchoic TvT, the hellions do fine against mass marauder. 5 hellions vs 5 marauders is obviously not close, but 20 hellions vs 20 marauders is and you can build hellions out of reactors.
On February 15 2011 21:20 Cibron wrote: The thing is that minerals is the critical resource when dealing with early toss. If you spend 500+ on an early hellion drops you'll be having trouble defending the inevitable counterpush. Early hellion drop is a kind of all in imo.
As soon as the toss relies on units like stalker, collossus, voids or carriers the hellions become useless - And that happans every game. The hellion becomes a worthless mineral sink. Sure having a few for scouting and harassment is good but by no means do I build a raector on my fac i TvP.
Well if you retreat with most of your stuff, they can roast the zealots in that early push.
Well, lately I have opened with hellion (non blue-flame) drops vs toss and I think it works pretty well. I get 3 or 4 hellions and a medivac, usually getting a bunker at my ramp and adding two barracks just before dropping the hellions. Most times the P seems to feel forced to counter-attack me, and by that time I have enough mmm to defend myself, after that its usually pretty easy to take the win. But then Im only a Plat-player so dont listen to me
On February 15 2011 23:28 dohgg wrote: mmm will never be powerfull vs a good micro forcefiled player imo..
every time mmm will try to engage a choked narrow path its kinda game over with good forcfileds and zealots.
The real strentgh of mmm imo, is by droping. the support of a med to 4 stimmed maras on an edgy side of the map is awsome.
m8 mmm is to powerfull (stimed ofc) how you can difith mmm with force fealds ? on what lvl of play ? simply MMM distroys everything toss have in t1 or (t2 imortals) ...and after you get t3 HTs they you destroy easy MMM like it should be...or coloss.. ..
Man, i dont want to get out of the topic issue, but forcfileds cuts armies and deny hit and run from zealots, thats simply how u do that.
Once a zealots isnt getting kittined he can take mm.
and forcfields gives u the abilty to tech up to these higher tier units that just crush mmm..
+
getting a medivac early will cut alot of ur marines maras production, and thats time for toss to tech.
I actually do think Hellions will see more play in PvT once players realize they are an excellent way to snipe High Templars and Sentries if controlled well. More importantly, they are a lot less fragile then Ghosts.
On February 15 2011 23:28 dohgg wrote: mmm will never be powerfull vs a good micro forcefiled player imo..
every time mmm will try to engage a choked narrow path its kinda game over with good forcfileds and zealots.
The real strentgh of mmm imo, is by droping. the support of a med to 4 stimmed maras on an edgy side of the map is awsome.
m8 mmm is to powerfull (stimed ofc) how you can difith mmm with force fealds ? on what lvl of play ? simply MMM distroys everything toss have in t1 or (t2 imortals) ...and after you get t3 HTs they you destroy easy MMM like it should be...or coloss.. ..
Man, i dont want to get out of the topic issue, but forcfileds cuts armies and deny hit and run from zealots, thats simply how u do that.
Once a zealots isnt getting kittined he can take mm.
and forcfields gives u the abilty to tech up to these higher tier units that just crush mmm..
+
getting a medivac early will cut alot of ur marines maras production, and thats time for toss to tech.
heh..... problem is you need FF to not die from terran early agreasion and you need to tech up...
after you get to HTs you ofc easy will angenst MMM becous is t1...but it simply gameplay shouldnt work like that....
becous afterr mmm game is going in to mid game and late game... and after terran is good but simply something is mising becous if you menage to kill terran mecha u almoust win game...
simply terran need some more difens to protect mech army i think...but maby i am wrong.. will see in future..
The main problem is their versatility. They are good as in having 4-5 but any more and they start becoming a waste.. Forcefields also just assrape them, especially combined with colossi. I think they are underused in army combos though(that is to have none instead of those 4-5), as in making a few of them, and deffo should be dropped more. For mech(tank style esp), you need something against VRs, carriers and immos. Hellion doesn't really reinforce the weaknesses of mech all to much, just increases harassment options.
Hellions are quite powerful in TvP, however, it's not quite so easy to incorporate them into your play. I personally think that hellion/thor/viking or hellion/thor/battlecruiser is the best possible unit combination for endgame TvP and the correct answer to the protoss ball of death.
The problem is that it's actually quite difficult to get to this unit combination without dying to some form of early pressure and still be on equal eco footing. I've been experimenting with 1/1/1 banshee or 1/1/1 blue hellion drop openings, with a strong banshee/raven/marine/mech timing push and eventually transitioning into hellion/thor/air but it's quite difficult to execute. Blueflame hellion drops are really MM drops on steroids. You can often kill about 10 probes with a drop even if there are stalkers to defend (A stalker still needs 8-9 shots to kill a hellion).
Zealots, the bane of every mech based play, get easily shredded by a wall of 5-6 hellions. Also, the charge mechanic makes it pretty easy to do little hit-and-run maneuvers to annoy the protoss.
The only thing that can be dangerous once you get to hellion/thor/viking in big numbers is a 3+ base carrier transition. That's why i plan to eventually transition from viking to bc in the lategame - as bc's with yamato are the only thing that really works vs carriers.
Zealots / Sentries / HT / DT get killed by hellions Stalkers / Immortals / Phoenix get killed by thors Collossus / Voidray get killed by vikings.
I am reticent to say they are THE FUTURE OF TVP but I think tvp will evolve into bio -> expand -> bio + mech /w ghosts.. and by mech I mostly mean hellion with some tank sprinkled in maybe a thor. bf helions are really good in this matchup.. the can snag templars that are always awkward hugging the heels of the rest of the protoss army and take shots at the front of the zealot ball for lots of front-loaded damage and then swing them behind your mauradors or thors and lol at the zels as they disappear before charge even reaches
hellions are good agenst zealots zerglings benlgings and workers also good agenst HTs hidralysc...
stalker conters hellions like maraders conter stalkers... but combined siege tanks + hellions they do great agenst zealots stalkers (hard to hit them with HTs tunder storm) coloss ...
also hellions are good agenst imortalls (drain shild wery fast) so siege tanks can do dps on imo...
you can send hellions for scauting harasment and free kills agenst zerglings and banglings...
plenty of good staf that hellions can do hope we will se more of them in future..
I find marines pretty useless late-game. I have been meaning to go helions, i think it will be a great way to harass and pick off a few templars. Instead of having 100 marines die to storm or colossas.
I've been having a great amount of success on the ladder with mech vs Protoss. Hellions are a very important unit to keep producing as they have a lot of roles. They're great at scouting ahead so that you can determine how slowly you need to be leapfrogging your tanks, they're excellent at harassing expos (which is key because a good protoss knows to aggressively expand against the immobile mech army), and they make a great buffer zone for your tanks. Hellions will shred apart any and all zealots the protoss throws at you, and your tanks can have free shots over the rest of the protoss army as they try to break through the hellion buffer.
I treat hellians just as I would mutas pvz blink stalker play is the real bane of terran mech as you can see them running away blink in alpha the hellians away a bit and then run away. I've been samwhitched by a hellian/viking sneak and his mech and/or bio ball and I've been just fine microing my stalkers to blink back onto the vikings/hellians charglots going the other direction and having my colissi the side thats not doing as good as the other.
I will say that it does do something that zergs arn't able to do very well and that is killing a death ball as I really feel like I need a large enough mixture of vr's/HT's/colissi to deal with the terrans.
The really bad thing about the bio balls lategame isn't their strength. the real power of the bioball lies in its insane mobility and ability to push AND do drops in multiple places without breaking the back of the army itself.
"listening to kawaiirice stream smack talking about this thread LOLOL, this is hilarious =)))"
and:
On August 27 2010 15:22 link0 wrote: Hellions are terrible against P when not harrassing. End of story.
Well, hellions remain absurdly good vs P. With their speed, anti-light bonus, and splash damage, they're by far the best economy harass unit in the game. Hellions are also great for defending drops and blink harass (splash scales with army size, so they actually beat stalkers for cost at larger numbers). And because zealots fill a critical role in the Protoss composition by efficiently absorbing damage (zealots are about 3 times better for cost at absorbing damage from MM and/or tanks), hellions are actually completely awesome in a straight up fight.
Unless you're committed to building nothing but barracks and starports (and many Terran players seem wedded to the idea), you should absolutely use hellions in the mid/late game. Against a FE Protoss, they're also good in the early game. They're awesome against so many things Protoss players like to do.
yeah kcdc terrans don't like when you tell them that anything but mass bio and medivacs or banshee all ins are viable. like when you tell them thors are good in the mid-late game mixed in with your bio.. nothing new xD
They're pretty helpful. But.. You shouldn't let the protoss build up their deathball in the first place. With Bio heavy mixes you can always suicide 15 stimmed marine/marauder into a collosus ball and usually successfully snipe it. But yea some people can really make hellion work.
planetary fortresses + turrets make defending places with minimal amount of tanks quite easy, sensor towers to detect any harrassment or movement.
vikings kill collosi and protoss air units, hellion harrass gets exponentially better the more bases the toss gets on (he needs to throw down like 3+ cannons at each base to adequetely defend them from hellions) tank lines can not be taken head on unless theres no hellion buffer.
Add in a raven, dropship and ~3 ghosts to accessorize your army.
In certain situations tank drops can be extremely effective to take out a base or kill probes or clear the cannons so hellions can have access again.
Be very wary of motherships, and try to pick them off before they get enough energy to do anything like recall or vortex.
Start upgrades early and keep them going until your ground and air are both 3-3
Early on and in low numbers, marines + hellions are great at cutting immortals shields, later on in big numbers ghosts are great for EMP'ing the entire toss army.
It takes strong attack timing and adequete defense ability, but if executed properly mech is VERY potent.
In the replay in this thread, the terran had so many opportunities to go for the protoss' base that had lots of minerals, but didn't. I'm talking right after the toss threw his entire army away like 3x in a row and just was allowed to sit back and resupply.
You have to be passive with mech, to a certain point. Once you get there, it's shark mode time. If protoss throws away a bunch of food worth of units, go siege up outside his main and take out all his tech or take out all of his expansions.
Look at how GoOdy plays TvP - IMHO the best way to play TvP so you don't just loose in the lategame. He also uses a lot of Hellions, which is great, cuz nowadays, Protoss don't know how to SimCity anymore, like in the BW-days and there are so many openings for Hellions to just rape Probes.
Also, they are great to pick off Zealots/HT's.
When I was playing T back in the Beta and early release, I was always Meching against Protoss and Hellions helped me alot to gain Mapcontrol, harrass, scout etc. Besides, they are the only Mineral-sink for a Meching Terran.
Also, as a little Gimmick, they can help defend against DT's by attacking one of you're Units and use the Splash to DMG the DT. Got me at least one win I can remember on the Ladder. ^^'
On February 16 2011 03:12 Alejandrisha wrote: yeah kcdc terrans don't like when you tell them that anything but mass bio and medivacs or banshee all ins are viable. like when you tell them thors are good in the mid-late game mixed in with your bio.. nothing new xD
The reason most terrans don't use factory units is pretty simple. While hellions/tanks/thors are really good units versus protoss, they aren't really compatible with bio. Simply stated: bio only works with bio and mech only works with mech. There are of course exceptions to this rule, it may, for example, be beneficial to mix in some hellions or tanks into your bioball. As a main army component, however, it won't work.
Why ?
Well, first there is upgrades, bio and mech both need a completely different set of upgrades. Next, there is production facilities. Having an only Barracks or Factory composition allows for much more flexibility in army composition. Need more marines ? No problem, those techlab rax can also build marines. Factories can't.
And lastly, and most importantly, there is mobility. Apart from the early game, bio only works because of their mobility. Being able to kite zealots and dodge storms is the only thing that keeps bio viable in the lategame. If you have an immobile component in your army, say tanks or thors, you lose that advantage. Having to fall back to dodge a storm or kite zealots instantly results in the immobile part of your army being left behind.
While in theory, hellion/bio might work, i've never really seen it work.
TL;DR: Bio works only with Bio, Mech only with Mech. Bio is stronger early game, so most terrans start bio and cannot transition, so you mostly see bio.
Hellion bio is VERY strong for fast timed mmm stimpush. idea is that you need fact to get port, and unless you want to use it to scout//make addons it wont have much to do. thats why making 3-4-5 hellions can help a lot. usually it happens when i try to make one base attack after initial pressure. then p focus on def - get exe and immortall//sentry, try to get colo. and thats best time to attack 3 medivac 5 hellion bunsh of mm is DEADLY at that point. and in micro battles those few hellions help a lot - you can snipe some sentry, force making ff before main engagment, slip 2 hellions into mineral line to distract. and in the main battle they are DEADLY vs zealots. so usually its better to get them since your fact wont have much alternative...
OP: please use the word "are" instead of just using the letter 'r' and use the word "you" instead of using the letter 'u'. It becomes much more readable. Contrary to what you might find elsewhere on the internet, it's not actually a good idea to replace the words with just one letter.
That said, Hellions can be very strong in TvP if used properly. Combined with harass potential, they are fantastic to mix in against a zealot/high templar mix late game. Hellions are so fast that you can easily run around sniping high templars and demolishing zealots. Against a deathball, they can defeat the zealots, but they typically have more stalkers in them due to having to deal with vikings to protect the colossi. Thus, hellions aren't quite so strong here.
I would bet money that 1-3 months down the road hellions are going to be a staple in every matchup, not just for drops, but as a part of army compositions. They are easily the most underused unit the game, probably mostly in TvP at the moment.
In TvP they seem to synergize well with thors/tanks and ghosts, but I haven't worked the composition enough to know for sure. The theorycraft basis of this is that the main threats to thors and tanks (chargelots and immortals) are handled by hellions and ghosts respectively, and the rest falls into place, but it's a bit of a challenge to get this running effectively.
If big maps are truly the future trend, hellions are going to be devastating in all matchups. They are just so damn fast, people will be able to do amazing stuff with them.
I think the flamethrower AOE could be a little shorter but also wider: this would weaken the effect of hellion harass on workers, as workers tend to clump in straight lines. It would also make them more effective when engaging in an army vs army situation, especially when tanking masses of light units. Right now I feel like their harass is a little too good yet they feel kinda inefficient in bigger fights.
just don't reactor your factorys hehe or you will end up with a hellion army heh. Hellions are really cool to absorb anti armor shots like immortals or tanks (so your anti armor stuff can do its work unharmed, just like the old bw days just without spidermines). People that use them in the same group as their other army will most likely fail with hellions, but if you have them at the right position their totally evil (behind your army against lings, at the side for your army against zealots marines and hydras) Chargelots are evil as you don't really get the chance for nice shots, but at the same time you can abuse the autocast by lurring them with a hellion into a doom roaster heh.
On February 16 2011 03:12 Alejandrisha wrote: yeah kcdc terrans don't like when you tell them that anything but mass bio and medivacs or banshee all ins are viable. like when you tell them thors are good in the mid-late game mixed in with your bio.. nothing new xD
The reason most terrans don't use factory units is pretty simple. While hellions/tanks/thors are really good units versus protoss, they aren't really compatible with bio. Simply stated: bio only works with bio and mech only works with mech. There are of course exceptions to this rule, it may, for example, be beneficial to mix in some hellions or tanks into your bioball. As a main army component, however, it won't work.
Why ?
Well, first there is upgrades, bio and mech both need a completely different set of upgrades. Next, there is production facilities. Having an only Barracks or Factory composition allows for much more flexibility in army composition. Need more marines ? No problem, those techlab rax can also build marines. Factories can't.
And lastly, and most importantly, there is mobility. Apart from the early game, bio only works because of their mobility. Being able to kite zealots and dodge storms is the only thing that keeps bio viable in the lategame. If you have an immobile component in your army, say tanks or thors, you lose that advantage. Having to fall back to dodge a storm or kite zealots instantly results in the immobile part of your army being left behind.
While in theory, hellion/bio might work, i've never really seen it work.
TL;DR: Bio works only with Bio, Mech only with Mech. Bio is stronger early game, so most terrans start bio and cannot transition, so you mostly see bio.
Mmmm....hellions are really fast bro. You might not want to mix hellions into your bio because they require separate upgrades, but mobility isn't an issue. Ignitor hellions supplement a marauder ball in a similar way that marines would--they provide DPS vs light which marauders lack. There are some critical differences tho--marines hit air and can be healed by medivacs, while hellions are better in harass, don't get half of their DPS soaked up by guardian shield+armor upgrades, and are much stronger against high templar. IMO, after P has storm+amulet, T should try to replace as much of their marine composition with hellions as possible.
is that the overall cost? it'd be like 1250 minerals for stalkers
They're great for taking down shields from immortals/ doing AoE damage on zealots/stalkers/sentries/DTs/HTs and preventing people from using probes to defend all-in with a mix of marauders/marines ( probes die instantly to the AoE ) kind of unfortunate that you can't stop the auto cast on them other than the direction they're facing you can add tanks ( AoE ) If only they would add Ion thruster upgrade with spidermines...
On February 16 2011 07:01 kcdc wrote:Mmmm....hellions are really fast bro. You might not want to mix hellions into your bio because they require separate upgrades, but mobility isn't an issue. Ignitor hellions supplement a marauder ball in a similar way that marines would--they provide DPS vs light which marauders lack. There are some critical differences tho--marines hit air and can be healed by medivacs, while hellions are better in harass, don't get half of their DPS soaked up by guardian shield+armor upgrades, and are much stronger against high templar. IMO, after P has storm+amulet, T should try to replace as much of their marine composition with hellions as possible.
I specifically excluded hellion/bio from the "not compatible" list. As i said it should theoretically be possible, but i've never gotten it to work/ seen a good replay featuring it.
Edit: I'm not talking openers here but mid-/ lategame compositions. Obviously a lot of stuff works early game that doesn't anymore when toss has 2+ base with coll/templar.
On February 16 2011 06:47 Lurk wrote: A quick unit tester did reveal astonishing information :O
Hellions needed to kill X Stalkers with respective unit costs:
3 - 1 (300 vs 175) 4 - 2 (400 vs 350) 6 - 3 (600 vs 525) 7 - 4 (700 vs 700) ! 8 - 5 (800 vs 875) 9 - 6 (900 vs 1050) ... 14 - 10 (1400 vs 1750)
So actually, more than 7 hellions are cost effective vs stalkers. This is not taking into account micro though - which can obviously work both ways.
I am amazed :D...
Have always considered hellions as those "speical" unit on my hotkey to do poking and choose enagment with only light unit, seems like i better cut marines entirely and spend all my spare minerals on hellions. considering they are viable in big numbers vs any gateway unit... if 14 hellions wins 10 stalkers, what would be the results after these stalkers will be EMPed?
On February 16 2011 01:37 SiegeFlank wrote: I've been having a great amount of success on the ladder with mech vs Protoss. Hellions are a very important unit to keep producing as they have a lot of roles. They're great at scouting ahead so that you can determine how slowly you need to be leapfrogging your tanks, they're excellent at harassing expos (which is key because a good protoss knows to aggressively expand against the immobile mech army), and they make a great buffer zone for your tanks. Hellions will shred apart any and all zealots the protoss throws at you, and your tanks can have free shots over the rest of the protoss army as they try to break through the hellion buffer.
+1. Just like how vultures played the role of being the meat shield/buffer to the tank line, hellions play the same role. I guess the pre ginitor upgrade sort of acts as the replacement for the mine AOE dmg, but still Id take mines over that.
Also people who are trying to mech will realise that upgrading both weps/armor as fast as you can makes a worlds difference. 3-3 mech is quite scary, i mean a single hellion is doing what, 8+6+10+4+4+4 = 36 dmg to light units..
Yeah Hellions are damn good at killing light units. In TvT I use iEchoic (god bless that awesome bastard for ending the chess game from hell) In TvZ I use standard marine tank but I can see the use of hellions in TvP I use a Marauder/Hellion/Viking/Ghost/Medivac mix and hellions kill the shit out of sentries, zealots and HTs. I don't know if this is a good idea but I've been toying with it. You have your army as above, and sac the hellions to kill the HTs/Sentries + ambient splash damage, so then it's gateway+collosus you have to kill with MM and Ghost Viking which you should win since there are no FFs. It's kinda like an expensive EMP that hit's everything, I'm not sure if it's cost effective though.
I can see the viability of hellion harassment, esp. with blue flame. But as a protoss who religiously scouts the Terran front at start for techlab/marauder. As soon as i see marines/lack of decent armour defence, i'll be knocking on the front door with first zelot/ chorono stalkers.. and terran won't have an answer yet. Hellion as an open'er vs P may never be as useful as it is against terran or zerg vs. a decent scout and early aggression.
Haha, I made a very similar statement on here a few months ago. It really didn't catch on but maybe people are a little more accepting of hellions now.
The idea is that because tanks are weak against zealots the hellions deal with them and then the tanks can deal with everything else and that you also gain the other advantages of having hellions around.
The problems are that its always more difficult to win playing with a highly immobile army, its also problematic that you have no air defence and can easily get owned by a few void rays if you don't reallllly stay on top of your scouting.
On February 16 2011 06:47 Lurk wrote: A quick unit tester did reveal astonishing information :O
Hellions needed to kill X Stalkers with respective unit costs:
3 - 1 (300 vs 175) 4 - 2 (400 vs 350) 6 - 3 (600 vs 525) 7 - 4 (700 vs 700) ! 8 - 5 (800 vs 875) 9 - 6 (900 vs 1050) ... 14 - 10 (1400 vs 1750)
So actually, more than 7 hellions are cost effective vs stalkers. This is not taking into account micro though - which can obviously work both ways.
unless you intentionally position stalkers to receive full aoe dmg, that's not possbile
You're underestimating how crappy stalkers are. They do 7 DPS to light and cost 175 resources. For comparison, 2 probes do 6.7 DPS and costs 100 resources. Don't take me wrong--with better health, movement and range, stalkers are better combat units than probes. But when there's any basis for comparison, you know that stalkers really do crap damage to light.
On February 16 2011 06:47 Lurk wrote: A quick unit tester did reveal astonishing information :O
Hellions needed to kill X Stalkers with respective unit costs:
3 - 1 (300 vs 175) 4 - 2 (400 vs 350) 6 - 3 (600 vs 525) 7 - 4 (700 vs 700) ! 8 - 5 (800 vs 875) 9 - 6 (900 vs 1050) ... 14 - 10 (1400 vs 1750)
So actually, more than 7 hellions are cost effective vs stalkers. This is not taking into account micro though - which can obviously work both ways.
unless you intentionally position stalkers to receive full aoe dmg, that's not possbile
I positioned the stalkers as a ball and attack-moved the hellions into it, choosing one of the stalkers in the back of the ball as target. Any positioning of the stalkers in a line would result in even more splash damage. The only thing you could do to prevent splash is splitting the stalker 1 for 1 but then some would be out of range ...
Be my guest to confirm or disprove the above results.
Also, what kcdc said ... A Stalker almost costs as much as two hellions (if you value gas more call it even) and barely survives an encounter with 2 hellions. And in that scenario, there's zero splash damage involved.
EPT![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081221031721/starcraft/images/5/50/Hellion_SC2_DevGame1.jpg)
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hope we will se more of them in future..
good point op
