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[G/D] Skipping Mutas for Infestors in ZvT - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
February 14 2011 20:29 GMT
#41
I feel like infestors also give you the opportunity to use brood lords more effectively against terrans. With fungal, suddenly you have one of the ultimate anti-viking weapons - if he gets too close, you trap the vikings, and crush them easily - they're much easier to handle when they can't retreat back to their army!

Zerg relied heavily on casters in BW, and while infestors aren't defilers, I see no reason that we can't use them as a staple.
RoyaL-TigeR
Profile Joined May 2010
59 Posts
February 14 2011 20:33 GMT
#42
I don't like how you are teaching everyone how to beat Terran. -.-
Orome
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Switzerland11984 Posts
February 14 2011 20:40 GMT
#43
On February 15 2011 05:18 Zrana wrote:
Were those replays all from masters league players? Seemed to be quite some mistakes made.


That's completely normal. 3.1k-3.2k is very decent of course, but it's a long long way away from pro level.

MrBitter, several people have pointed out that this is weak to careful tank-heavy marine tank play now. Any thoughts on that?
On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer
b0ub0u
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada445 Posts
February 14 2011 20:41 GMT
#44
Gold level player here..

Wow just reading this made me want to use Infestor now! I try to avoid spellcasters as I have trouble micro-ing them.

Will concentrate on this way of playing for a while and see how it goes. I guess a delayed spire with some mutas may still be an option for mineral lines harass.

I did see you on your stream do it, even coaching someone on how to do it. And it was beautiful to watch
In the swarm we trust
uSnAmplified
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1029 Posts
February 14 2011 20:44 GMT
#45
I definitely like the idea of getting attack/armor upgrades throughout the games, i always felt my lategame ultra switches were weak because of the lack of upgrades. The Ultra/ling/bling looked incredibly scary fully upgraded,however im wondering why you 16 pool and gas late, wouldn't it be easier to get a faster lair and be safe from harass with regular 15 hatch 14 pool?
~
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
February 14 2011 20:50 GMT
#46
On February 15 2011 05:44 uSnAmplified wrote:
I definitely like the idea of getting attack/armor upgrades throughout the games, i always felt my lategame ultra switches were weak because of the lack of upgrades. The Ultra/ling/bling looked incredibly scary fully upgraded,however im wondering why you 16 pool and gas late, wouldn't it be easier to get a faster lair and be safe from harass with regular 15 hatch 14 pool?


16 pool works for me.

You might like 15 pool. Someone else might prefer getting speed before expanding. The beauty of a guide is that it doesn't have to be adhered to religiously.

The reason we don't rush to lair is so that we have more time to drone. Lings are really, really good... They should be able to keep you safe from MOST stuff in the early game.

Again, some Terran builds force deviations. In general, though, just sit back and chill until lair finishes. By taking a little more time in getting to lair, we set our economy up a little bit better for the mid-game.

That said, by all means feel free to experiment. I'm not a world-class player, and its absolutely possible (probable, in fact) that my build is not the most stream-lined.
Philo
Profile Joined September 2010
United States337 Posts
February 14 2011 20:56 GMT
#47
I was sitting in Geometry today thinking about ZvT and actually sketched out an almost identical build on paper based on some old TLO replays I saw way back. I especially like the idea of getting speed/drops and using it with a few infestors and lings for seriously unconventional for zerg style mineral drops while denying scouting with speedling/infestor. My only gripe so far is delaying the baneling nest. I feel like getting my baneling nest right after lair will help make the whole build more solid due to safety from likely random pushes and imo timely baneling speed should also be standard.

Has anyone put thought into extra macro hatcheries and the possible ease and security in pumping drones in comparison to muta/ling/bane?
Other people do 24 hour streams. I just let GoOdy play a Bo11 TvT. - Special Endrey
uSnAmplified
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1029 Posts
February 14 2011 20:56 GMT
#48
On February 15 2011 05:50 MrBitter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2011 05:44 uSnAmplified wrote:
I definitely like the idea of getting attack/armor upgrades throughout the games, i always felt my lategame ultra switches were weak because of the lack of upgrades. The Ultra/ling/bling looked incredibly scary fully upgraded,however im wondering why you 16 pool and gas late, wouldn't it be easier to get a faster lair and be safe from harass with regular 15 hatch 14 pool?


16 pool works for me.

You might like 15 pool. Someone else might prefer getting speed before expanding. The beauty of a guide is that it doesn't have to be adhered to religiously.

The reason we don't rush to lair is so that we have more time to drone. Lings are really, really good... They should be able to keep you safe from MOST stuff in the early game.

Again, some Terran builds force deviations. In general, though, just sit back and chill until lair finishes. By taking a little more time in getting to lair, we set our economy up a little bit better for the mid-game.

That said, by all means feel free to experiment. I'm not a world-class player, and its absolutely possible (probable, in fact) that my build is not the most stream-lined.
Sounds good thanks for replying, i just started laddering hard as zerg again and i might be grabbing lair to early overall. Probably because i feel unsafe and want detection etc
~
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
February 14 2011 20:56 GMT
#49
Very cool that you posted this build

I was thinking, is that really cost effective to not make banelings until mid/late game? I mean isn't that better to always mix up few banelings in your ling army? And you can always make baneling mines if you have them.

Btw I read all what you wrote about how it's too gas heavy to go mutas and infestors and then I remembered Fruitdealer in GSL1 where he in all of his ZvTs had mutas, infestors, banelings, ultras, drops... lol
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
February 14 2011 20:58 GMT
#50
On February 15 2011 05:56 Alpina wrote:
Very cool that you posted this build

I was thinking, is that really cost effective to not make banelings until mid/late game? I mean isn't that better to always mix up few banelings in your ling army? And you can always make baneling mines if you have them.

Btw I read all what you wrote about how it's too gas heavy to go mutas and infestors and then I remembered Fruitdealer in GSL1 where he in all of his ZvTs had mutas, infestors, banelings, ultras, drops... lol



If you're going to be fighting marines before infestors, banes will help.

In the mid-game, infestors will just straight up kill marines, so banes aren't really necessary. Why not save the gas and put it somewhere else?

Once medivac numbers start climbing, banes become necessary again.
Jeffbelittle
Profile Joined August 2010
United States468 Posts
February 14 2011 21:02 GMT
#51
Mr. Bitter: First of all, nice to see you again.

Second: Do you think this has any place in ZvP? I tried it myself on a P going 2 gate robo, and lings/banes seemed incredibly effective against gateway-centric armies. It was even easier to break the front due to infested terrans and FG zealots out of place.
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
February 14 2011 21:05 GMT
#52
MrBitter i've been doing a similar concept since beta, and drops and banshees become second nature to beat after enough practice. (for instance, i'm closing in on 10 months of practice with the build). the big issue is on small maps, being pushed by heavy tank numbers. HOWEVER on the GSL maps, and shakuras and stuff, you can also beat that push. Infestor play is just safe from everything in general


The variation i have is 14 hatch 14 gas 13 pool, with lair as soon as pool fininshes, pretty much i get infestors about 2-3 minutes game time faster, and get maybe 1-3 drones less by the same point in time(which means you catch up quickly once infestors come out) the strategy in the mid game is roughly the same. except you didn't emphasize the importance of overlord and creep spread during the mid game. you can actually creep up to the opponents base by the time they have enough tanks to leave their base without dying. meaning you have 100% map control.
.Enigma.
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden1461 Posts
February 14 2011 21:10 GMT
#53
Great write up, I've tried and it's looking very good so far. It definitely feels like the benefits and the different options with infestors overweighs the strenghts of the mutas.

I'll definitely try this out some more.
"Jupiters c*ck!" - Quintus Lentulus Batiatus
OmniscientSC2
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States713 Posts
February 14 2011 21:11 GMT
#54
Infestor play is definitely some of the coolest ZvT style play I've seen along with oGsTheWind's Broodlord timing and Fruitdealer's Muta Contain v Nuke last night (Xeph's Restream). I just think it's a bit difficult on certain maps that allow Terrans to slow push/macro up. It really does remind of HongUn's PvT Style with the Immortals and 2 Forge off of 2 base. I didn't see too much mention of a transition into broodlords from this build though. Why not work on getting a greater spire once you are on 6 gas? You'll have +2/+2 Broodlings most likely, and probably even +1 On the Air Attack. It's a great way to strengthen this build against a transition into mech play. Anyways, thanks for the replays.
"Did you know about Day and the Wicker Basket?" - Harem "Hi, I'm from Texas." -TLO
b3serker
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada11 Posts
February 14 2011 21:16 GMT
#55
I've been doing this build lately (after your awesome VOD with LZGamer) and rolling the bio/mech terran army with Ultra/ling/bling is hilariously fun. Its nice to actually have a super strong 200 food army I see why Protoss like their deathball so much now lol
ZeroTalent
Profile Joined December 2010
United States297 Posts
February 14 2011 21:17 GMT
#56
Artosis mentioned this unit combination in the GSL. It always seemed better to me. Muta harass is a huge investment and it rarely does direct damage, while fungal growth on marines or SCVs is nasty. Plus, freezing units to make kiting less effective seems great. I'd take 6 infestors over 9 mutas any day.

Re: comments about sling/bling/infestor having less chance to harass; couldn't you use a Nydus network? You don't have to do the risky thing and put the exit(s) all the way in their base; just treat them as fast rallies to close-but-less-frequently-scouted positions: halfway down the Tasteless secret hallway on XC, near the 3rd expansions on the edge of the map on JB, etc.

I saw a masters-level game on stream where Z went Speedling-Hydra-Infestor with a Nydus network, and it looked incredibly annoying to deal with from T's perspective.
Can we get an official definition of "all-in"? Please?
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
February 14 2011 21:20 GMT
#57
well this as Protoss was obvious to me to begin with.

Infestors can deal garanteed damage with fungal.

while storm can only deal maybe 80 dmg if the terran is stupid enough to stay in it.
(and still you see them crying about it)
i doubt the average storm dmg is more than 40 = fungal dmg

and this also is great for zerg, since you have got banelings!! and can stop any micro.
b3serker
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada11 Posts
February 14 2011 21:24 GMT
#58
Another possible idea against drops:

Since ling/bling/infestor is pretty mineral light, how about using a bit more static defense to protect against drops? I know I generally float minerals doing this (yeah bad Macro >.>) until teching to Ultras, but how about using some of the excess minerals for some extra spore/spine crawlers. I know its definitely not the elegant solution most people are looking for but any thoughts?
sicajung
Profile Joined June 2010
United Kingdom297 Posts
February 14 2011 21:26 GMT
#59
this build literally increase my winrate ZvT from 0.9% to 99.9%. thx mrB. u are awesome~
stk01001
Profile Joined September 2007
United States786 Posts
February 14 2011 21:29 GMT
#60
hey Mr.Bitter... nice write up=) infestor play is definately something I've been experimenting with as well. I've found that I seem to run into a ton of trouble against terrans who like to abuse the fact that I don't have mutas and send dropships all over the map. I know you mentioned mobility as a weakness. I think it is by FAR the weakest aspect of the build. I find multi-pronged drop harassment by a skilled terran player very hard to deal with without mutas and I feel like a good terran can really abuse this fact when going up against this build. Do you run into a lot of trouble with drops or are you able to manage it? Any tips on dealing with it? Obviously fungal plus infested marines will take care of the dropships pretty easily, but do you keep infestors in your main solely to deal with drops? Or just keep a good overlord spread so you can see drops coming and then send your army as needed? I'm thinking some spines in your main & expos could help as well. It just gets difficult to micro at times with multiple drops going on at once, but I supposed that can be improved with practice. I just hate how big & squishy infestors are.. they seem to always die so easily.

I do love the fact that you can completely tear apart a marine/tank army head on with this build though. I may have to start using it again and just work on my defense against drops.Can't wait for Idra session, and to hear his thoughts on this style of play. Keep up the awesome work!
a.k.a reLapSe ---
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