EPTSeems like in the last week there has been a surge of great strategy threads like this one.
[G/D] Skipping Mutas for Infestors in ZvT - Page 2
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nymeria
United States161 Posts
Seems like in the last week there has been a surge of great strategy threads like this one. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On February 15 2011 03:56 Logo wrote: The main problems I had with this build were: 1. Denying an early 3rd for the Terran. Even with upgrades engaging marines or marine/tank off creep isn't a good proposition for Zerg. At the same time letting Terran get an early 3rd (especially a gold) is pretty troublesome. How do you handle/deny/delay a 3rd from Terran without mutalisks forcing him to be defensive? 2. As you said banshees, but even more so in mass drop play or a drop + attack. I always found that if the Terran player did a split attack early on or went for banshees I was in serious trouble. With only 2 or so fungals to start with T players were able to run me out of energy on my infestors and still have more to throw my way. I also vaguely remember it being bad vs things like a marauder/hellion push that can pack a ton of hurt on lings when positioned well. Fungaled or not if the marauders are slowing and protecting the hellions you're in for some pain. 1.) You're not trying to deny the 3rd in the same way that you would when playing mutas. Let him take 3 while you go up to 5. You're going to have the stronger army, regardless. 2.) Banshees can be tough. You don't want to kill them with your infestors. You want to kill them with the extra queens you have from all that extra mineral income. And yes, marauder hellion is tough. But marauder hellion is tough no matter what build you do... To be fair, if I scout marauder hellion, I'll be putting down a spire before my infestation pit. | ||
Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
Infestors are probably the most underused awesome unit in the game along with for me as a terran player, the unit I fear the most. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
If i remember correctly, in the "impromptu showmatch" between qxc and TLO, TLO did this and he got destroyed hard by Marauder/Hellion. I don't play Zerg, but Marauder/Hellion seems to make the ultra switch really hard and you end up getting forced back into muta... | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Once you establish a good number of mutas you can make infestors again. If you make them too quickly you'll get punished because they won't be cost-effective, and if you wait too long the marine numbers will begin picking up again until he has MM/hellion and you won't be able to kill it. | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
On February 15 2011 03:38 Shikyo wrote: I think that this build is a lot tougher to make work when the T plays it properly and slowpushes with a lot of tanks. It's going to be really difficult to break him and you can't do anything like sniping the tanks with Mutas or harrassing the main to delay and so on. Also, if the T adds in a few cloaked ghosts it's really easy to insta-die as soon as he gets one EMP off on your Infestors, since they're all you have. I'd say that this build has the potential to be stronger than the muta build, but in my opinion you're going to have to play a lot better in comparison for that to happen. So it definitely wouldn't be anything I'd recommend to people below mid master. Actually, it's a lot easier to play this style compared to mutaling, because your army is so much more resilient and _cheaper_, which means you can lose more of due to a mistake and still be in the game. Obviously losing all your infestors to tank fire can be game-ending, but so is losing all your mutas to a couple thor volleys. With mutaling terran seeks to force an engagement because he knows he has the stronger army, and it's easy to misgauge and engage too soon, or engage when your only option is to counterattack. With infestors you can just sit on your creep knowing that he has to push very slowly because as soon as his infantry is off tank range splouarch! its all dead. he can't dart forward and stim kite backwards. I'ts much much easier to go into the later midgame safely with infestors. However, I do think your next big gas investment should be mutas (before ultras), as otherwise a terran can keep up with you in bases and rally his stuff in the middle of the map, inching forward while dropping everywhere like crazy. you need some way to harass him in return or you'll get slowly chipped to death. | ||
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Magulina
Sweden152 Posts
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
Well, I hate played w/o map control - as P I'd go fenix or make a lot of observers, for example - but ling/infestor is ridiculously strong overall, and it isn't as gas heavy as muta/ling so you can get away with 3hatcheries in 2 bases, at least for a while. And seriously, 3/3 Cracklings are WAAAAAAY underrated. People should use them much more. Too bad ZvT is my best matchup and I don't really feel I need to change something!  | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
Also is baneling nest timing just based on the number of medivacs? | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On February 15 2011 04:41 dementrio wrote: Actually, it's a lot easier to play this style compared to mutaling, because your army is so much more resilient and _cheaper_, which means you can lose more of due to a mistake and still be in the game. Obviously losing all your infestors to tank fire can be game-ending, but so is losing all your mutas to a couple thor volleys. With mutaling terran seeks to force an engagement because he knows he has the stronger army, and it's easy to misgauge and engage too soon, or engage when your only option is to counterattack. With infestors you can just sit on your creep knowing that he has to push very slowly because as soon as his infantry is off tank range splouarch! its all dead. he can't dart forward and stim kite backwards. I'ts much much easier to go into the later midgame safely with infestors. However, I do think your next big gas investment should be mutas (before ultras), as otherwise a terran can keep up with you in bases and rally his stuff in the middle of the map, inching forward while dropping everywhere like crazy. you need some way to harass him in return or you'll get slowly chipped to death. I'm not sure why it matters that he cant move marines in front of his tanks since he can just attack with tanks and you don't have anything good against it. With mutaling you can reduce the amount, with infestors you can't and you'll eventually be looking at 10+ tanks that you can't engage. | ||
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Super_bricklayer
France104 Posts
On February 15 2011 04:49 Zephirdd wrote:And seriously, 3/3 Cracklings are WAAAAAAY underrated. People should use them much more. I'am watching the replay of sir bitter right now, and that was my thought, mind blowing as some like to say. Crackling 3/3 is punishing the terran so hard on the Xel naga 's game just because he didn't have the upgrades on his tanks. Well, i'm not saying it resume the all the game, but seriously, they're eating everything up so quickly and don't melt as they do in my games ! :D Ho and that come back on that particular one is so nice ! I think i had a nerd-zergasm. | ||
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Carl_Sagan
United States226 Posts
The infestors can be really good at handling drops, and punishing them. For added TLO style, throw in burrowed infestor harass | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
On February 15 2011 04:58 Shikyo wrote: I'm not sure why it matters that he cant move marines in front of his tanks since he can just attack with tanks and you don't have anything good against it. With mutaling you can reduce the amount, with infestors you can't and you'll eventually be looking at 10+ tanks that you can't engage. upgraded lings work very well against tanks, especially when you have tons of them due not not needing all the banelings. Eventually yes, the tank number will get out of control, but you'll have ultras by then (or mutas). if he tries to push too soon I guarantee you he will lose all his army with you taking only mineral losses. compare that to mutaling where they have 3-4 tanks with their first push, which happens when you just got mutas. you are counting on your banelings to kill the scary marines, but you need to make a lot of them because most will die before making contact. this leaves you with a few lings and a few mutas to clean up. the terran will try to siege in your base as fast as he can and you will be forced to eventually throw everything you have at him, including your expensive mutas. even if you repel it it's unlikely you're ahead. I'll take infestors anyday | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
furthermore, it seems strange why you get gas THAT late, especially since a roach warren does not seems included as a standard in your build, but you will have zergling speed so late that you will have quite some trouble defending against any early hellion / hellion+marine push. also you should add that this is rather weak against a more tankheavy tank/marine army. | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
on the actual topic; i really love seeing infestors used well, makes me all excited about the metagame progressing - Im sure at least a few infestors mixed in will eventually become the standard for z. Likewise for T, ravens and ghosts will see more use in the future. | ||
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BadWolf0
United States300 Posts
 Seriously though I've been devouring everything you stream on this style and playing it alot and not only does it work really well you forgot to mention the best pro of it... infestors are FUN!!! I love getting to play with a spellcaster. I used to think infestors were worthlesss but really it was just my troop positioning and control that was worthless. anyways thanks for the awesome build post and all the awesome streaming.tldr: infestors are fucking fun go play with them. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 15 2011 04:18 MrBitter wrote: 1.) You're not trying to deny the 3rd in the same way that you would when playing mutas. Let him take 3 while you go up to 5. You're going to have the stronger army, regardless. 2.) Banshees can be tough. You don't want to kill them with your infestors. You want to kill them with the extra queens you have from all that extra mineral income. And yes, marauder hellion is tough. But marauder hellion is tough no matter what build you do... To be fair, if I scout marauder hellion, I'll be putting down a spire before my infestation pit. Hmm well I can see #1 for some maps, but not others. Under no circumstances do I feel comfortable letting my opponent get the gold base on Xel'Naga regardless of the # of bases I have. same would go for the gold on Blistering Sands. Scrap would be iffy to me as well, but it's also easier to deny his 3rd with lings in that case. Do you change your plans at all for these maps? I'll have to watch the reps when I can to see. | ||
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
Also Greg says Ultra/Ling/Infestor is the strongest composition against Terran but it isn't as money efficient as Ling/Bling/Muta. I'm sure you'll ask him about your style anyhoo and he probably won't say it's the worst idea he's heard. | ||
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OmNomSpy
United States68 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On February 15 2011 05:18 Zrana wrote: Were those replays all from masters league players? Seemed to be quite some mistakes made. on the actual topic; i really love seeing infestors used well, makes me all excited about the metagame progressing - Im sure at least a few infestors mixed in will eventually become the standard for z. Likewise for T, ravens and ghosts will see more use in the future. I think most those guys have made top 200 lists... | ||
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