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CajunMan
United States823 Posts
http://sc2casts.com/cast4603-MajOr-vs-Destiny-1-Game-Starcraft-Ladder-Battle.net-VOD Theres just a one game and I know you had to have watched Destiny v Bomber if your a sc2 fan I just wanted to know as someone who really wants to learn about it doesn't seem right not to. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
No insult to Destiny here, but he's just not in the same class as Bomber. Still, using his style, he can go toe-to-toe with one of the top terrans in the world. That being said, in my personal experience, I still prefer mutas. Though I may try a late-game tech switch to mass infestors after watching that set. | ||
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ReptarReptar
Australia9 Posts
While this isn't the build in question, I wonder how opening ling/bling/muta for map control and securing the third into lots of infestors goes. The 12~ mutas wouldn't directly do 1200gas worth of damage, but it seems like mineral dumps in turrets and the pin effect would allow an opening for infestors. Mutas still remain useful, warding off drops... I feel I'm describing an exaggerated example of the current ZvT. Please poke holes and tell me why I'm wrong :D | ||
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Jarlax
76 Posts
Mass banshee - if u get roach-heavy opening and he open mass banshee u can usually counter-attack and do insane dmg - but without roaches u are dead (by mass banshee i mean move out with like 4-6). Same thing will happen with mass helion - and again i dont mean moving out with 4 - showing them to u and giving u time to react - move out with 8-10. If u dont mass roach (not 3-4) u are also dead or at least half of ur mineral line is. And if u go heavy roach (more then 10) u wont have enough gas for heavy upgrades or fast infestors. Generally i feel like not getting 6+ roaches in early game vs teran who go rax + gas is pure gamble - if he go fast blue flame + dropship and drop 6 helions in ur main its a game if he can control them. Thats why i think Spanishiwa opening (just lings + blocking ramp with spines + queens) is pure gamble - mass helion drop kills it and mass banshee (6 or more) kills it too - queens cant handle more then 6 banshee. | ||
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BlizzrdSlave
161 Posts
this is just my guess as to what this thread is about, having played a thousand games in this season alone. Ultras do get a bad rap, for non-upgraded units. They are probably the most dependent unit for upgrades. you NEED to have the upgrades out before you spawn them since they come out so late in the game they're usually fighting vs enemy UPs and good unit comp. They're also a little slow off creep for a melee unit, when it comes down to it. roaches are faster. Have you ever tried Ultralisk drops on top of an army with roaches and lings attacking from the sides to draw fire? The pathing issues and huge unit size problems all go bye-bye. instadeath like a baneling drop, but you then have ultralisks left over, and many of your roaches and ling too. FG speed and infestor speed were both nerfs, except that FG was nerfed in some places and buffed in others, while the speed is a pure nerf. a lot of people say that having them slower is a steal buff because they cant run out in front of your army, but they've never trying moving infestors on a slow pace setter unit, or just being good at micro. one might argue the FG is a stealth nerf for opposite reasons. the damage is quicker, yes, but the rooting time is less quick, meaning that low numbers of infestors dont give you the same positioning advantages. shifting units to front and back of the fight is as important as keeping them all together. slow FG time can deny both of these from a single inf for a while, while the fast FG means u need spam to keep these major benefits going. longer rooted time for marines vs banelings = easier time killing marines. So FG speed was a nerf as much as it was a buff. | ||
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plasemeious
United States244 Posts
On July 12 2011 22:45 ReptarReptar wrote: Probably been said, but the bottle neck on the build is obviously gas if you go mass upgrades, mass infestors. I like the idea of heavy spine crawler use to secure 3rds securing more gas and allowing your fast units (zerglings) to be active on the map. Seems like a reasonable idea for buying time to get units back to a dropped base. While this isn't the build in question, I wonder how opening ling/bling/muta for map control and securing the third into lots of infestors goes. The 12~ mutas wouldn't directly do 1200gas worth of damage, but it seems like mineral dumps in turrets and the pin effect would allow an opening for infestors. Mutas still remain useful, warding off drops... I feel I'm describing an exaggerated example of the current ZvT. Please poke holes and tell me why I'm wrong :D Julyzerg did something like that at nasl. He opened ling going muta. Made 9 muta than infestor broods | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
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HybridZ
Canada103 Posts
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ETisME
12700 Posts
On July 12 2011 22:56 Jarlax wrote: I find most problem with this style in first 10 minutes - bcoz u just go mass ling into upgrades i feel Teran can easily -demolish- u before u can get infestors. Mass banshee - if u get roach-heavy opening and he open mass banshee u can usually counter-attack and do insane dmg - but without roaches u are dead (by mass banshee i mean move out with like 4-6). Same thing will happen with mass helion - and again i dont mean moving out with 4 - showing them to u and giving u time to react - move out with 8-10. If u dont mass roach (not 3-4) u are also dead or at least half of ur mineral line is. And if u go heavy roach (more then 10) u wont have enough gas for heavy upgrades or fast infestors. Generally i feel like not getting 6+ roaches in early game vs teran who go rax + gas is pure gamble - if he go fast blue flame + dropship and drop 6 helions in ur main its a game if he can control them. Thats why i think Spanishiwa opening (just lings + blocking ramp with spines + queens) is pure gamble - mass helion drop kills it and mass banshee (6 or more) kills it too - queens cant handle more then 6 banshee. well you obviously cannot just go mass lings without actually countering what the terran is doing. You can always poke the front or use overlord to spot all those 8-10 hellions From Destiny's stream, he normally would drop one or two more spines and defend with queens against hellions (or sometimes get some roaches, not sure what the condition is through) Haven't seen him dealing with blue flame hellions drop. He would get spore and more queens if he saw there are more air than he can deal with. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
Is it better than Mutas though? I think both strats are viable, Mutas give you great opportunities to harrass, scout, gain Mapcontrol, be able to counterattack etc. whilst Infestor-based play has the above mentioned perks. Personally, I just like playing Mutas, so I'll stick with them, at least in TvZ, but in PvZ and even ZvZ, I've really enjoyed playing mass-infestors with fast 3/4-base Hive-tech. | ||
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Hijungle
Australia67 Posts
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Hristiyan
99 Posts
You would actually get the broodlords slower than with the spire 1st strategy. | ||
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HiHiByeBye
Canada365 Posts
On July 14 2011 16:37 Hristiyan wrote: The weakness of that strategy is the lack of aggressive potential that infestors have. If i was a terran i would start making marine and blue flame helliod drops allover the map and the odds are that not only that you'll do no damage with the infesters, but rather I'm gonna do enough damage with the drops that you'll be rly behind. You would actually get the broodlords slower than with the spire 1st strategy. hmm all your points are invalid. Infestors are so aggressive due to burrow movement. When you have 10-15 just drop a lot of infested terrans on PFs and they go down instantly. As for drops 1 FG + spine shut down any kind of drops you can do. And the mobility of zerglings are easily reinforce with FG and spine buying time The only counter i see to this strat is well placed EMPs but they are hard cus fungal range and emp range is samilar of fungal is larger (please correct me). And fungal can reveal ghosts | ||
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HiHiByeBye
Canada365 Posts
Terran need gas for Tanks and Mediacs as well as ghosts so it is hard to get a lot. Meanwhile Zerg just pour all their gas into infestors and minerals into lings so they have a lot of more infestors. Protoss needs to pour gas into stalkers sentries and HTs so they will not have too many HTs. HTs are smaller units so when they clump up 1 emp can destroy all of them while infestors are big so 1 emp hits like 4 max | ||
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MonkSEA
Australia1227 Posts
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Jarlax
76 Posts
On July 14 2011 13:22 ETisME wrote: lly countering what the terran is doing. You can always poke the front or use overlord to spot all those 8-10 hellions From Destiny's stream, he normally would drop one or two more spines and defend with queens against hellions (or sometimes get some roaches, not sure what the condition is through) Haven't seen him dealing with blue flame hellions drop. He would get spore and more queens if he saw there are more air than he can deal with. Thing is i saw destiny playing against teran cheeser called Fuzer or smth like that and first game destiny got raped by 12 blue flame helions which roasted all his lings in 1 shot - it was also close air position. Second game he got owned by 3 port banshee. Saying shit on forum is much easier then actually doing it in game - scout with overlord is lol vs someone who is trying to cheese at higher lvl - he will have marines everywhere around his base and poking front also wont tell u anything coz he will just hide helions in middle of base showing max 2. Thats also what i said - going pure ling vs teran who go rax and gas is suicide and gamble for me. U can roll good and get lucky with surround + spine, but one mistake and its a game. It's also not directly about destiny play - coz he actually go roaches quite often - its more about ice fisher build (no gas) - which is quite fail as long as teran can identify it fast and hard counter. | ||
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
I appreciate help understanding :D | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
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kmh
Finland351 Posts
On July 18 2011 05:29 Falcon-sw wrote: How do you attach a tank/thor push with lings and infestors? Neural parasite, infested terrans and lings. Ideally you want to throw in some IT first to tank a few shots, then move in and NP as much as possible as quickly as possible, while the lings swarm in. If there are hellions or marines, you want to fungal them. | ||
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BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
On July 18 2011 05:51 kmh wrote: Neural parasite, infested terrans and lings. Ideally you want to throw in some IT first to tank a few shots, then move in and NP as much as possible as quickly as possible, while the lings swarm in. If there are hellions or marines, you want to fungal them. You wont have neural, what you want to do is have decent creep spread and good scouting information, try and force him to siege away from your natural, every time he pushes forward you fungal growth a group of marines, once enough marines have died you can surround with lings, the more angles you attack from the less damage you will take from tanks and the faster you will get surface area and dps going. If the marines stim even a single time they get killed in a single fungal in 4 seconds, the early timing wont have combat shield, by the time combat shield is an issue you should be at 2/2 ups vs 1/1 or maybe 1/0 upgraded marines in most builds. Lings on creep from multiple angles are surprisingly good even w/o infestor support, especially if you have any kind of upgrade advantage. | ||
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