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Have you run up against a 6 pool using this build? I know it's not as common now but with only 11 drones and no scouting isn't there a major risk from this build? Even if you run your drones away you will loose your nearly undefended queen which will majorly set back your build. Possibly only an issue on short rush distance maps.
I don't see how you can rely on your zerglings to prevent a scout. Unless your opponent is scouting on like 16 they will see you went for an earlier pool before you have lings. If they also went for an 11-pool (which is somewhat common in zvz) wouldn't the defenders advantage make this strat a near auto loose? I know in your one replay you have vs an 11-pool but they were also going for banelings which will slow down ling production on the defense.
I think the major thing your strat has going for it is it's not standard so people aren't expecting it. However, I can't help but feeling a defensivly minded zerg wouldn't be able to stop this easily with a normally timed scout (around 12 food).
With that said this will win you a lot of games. I do something similar (+1 sling attack out of 11 pool) that wins me most of my zvz. About 50% of zvz the other zerg will try to FE and you'll win straight up. Also, people rushing to roaches will get hit before they have enough roaches out. That's 90% of the games you will play right there.
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So you want to pressure the other zerg but still be good on macro?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181318
Here's my guide on it. Instead of going for an 11 pool and just lings after, I go for a 14gas 14 pool. Which is generally the most adaptable build out there. 11 pool builds HAVE to do damage. 14 gas/14 pool builds don't really rely on having certain damage done to your opponent. Which is why it is the more safe option.
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On February 12 2011 02:36 Chaosvuistje wrote:So you want to pressure the other zerg but still be good on macro? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181318Here's my guide on it. Instead of going for an 11 pool and just lings after, I go for a 14gas 14 pool. Which is generally the most adaptable build out there. 11 pool builds HAVE to do damage. 14 gas/14 pool builds don't really rely on having certain damage done to your opponent. Which is why it is the more safe option.
I think you are missing the point with his build. Your build is great and something similar to it is used by a lot of zergs. The OP's build was specifically designed to defeat this type of build via early aggression. He will have over double your zergling count when he hits. It's not as solid of a build but it's capitalizing on the weakness of all the more solid builds.
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On February 12 2011 00:45 michaelhasanalias wrote:
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I haven't played vs 14gas 14 pool yet, but my guess would be:
at least 6 ling advantage (more if he builds more drones), and ling speed advantage at the time of attack.
14g 14p may be the most common standard opening in ZvZ. That's quite a problem if you haven't tested your build against it.
I dowloaded one of your replay, and you have enough gas to start speed research at 3min11. Which is the exact same time the pool pop up with a 14g14pool opening.
This means both builds get the speedling research at the same time.
The difference is you have 11 drone, the 14g14pool usually make 15 drones.
You may have 6 more lings, but you have to cross the map. If you attack the lings count will be even, meaning he will have the advantage thanks to the queen and possibly drones.
Unless you managed to out micro your opponent, you shouldn't make much damage here, and you certainly shouldn't be able to kill the 4 drones you need to get even on economy.
Looks like your build is countered by 13g13p and 14g14p...
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I just lost twice vs this build, using 13g13p both times. I underestimated the threat and didnt react in an optimal way. I guess, massing Zerglings and blocking the ramp until you get speed as well should work.
On short rush distance or large ramps a spine crawler is essential. No way to get banelings in time, and later pools second inject is significantly later. This, combined with the speed will result in a severe worker loss, even with a queen and drone drilling.
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I'm not sure how reliable this will be, but food for thought.
Using the sc2 build order tool http://sc2calc.org/build_order/ (you can copy and paste these orders in to see results)
I put standard gas first opener:
9 Overlord
14 Extractor > +3
14 Spawning Pool
15 Overlord
15 Metabolic Boost
15 Queen > Spawn Larvae
17 Zergling [7]
24 Overlord
24 Zergling [2]
vs my best estimate of this build
10 Extractor > +3
10 Extractor Trick
11 Spawning Pool
10 Extractor Trick
@100 gas take 3 off gas
11 Overlord
11 Queen > Spawn Larvae > Spawn Larvae
13 Zergling
14 Metabolic Boost
14 Zergling[2]
16 Overlord
16 Zergling[2]
18 Zergling[8]
Results--
Speed Complete: 14g/14p (4:47), Your Build (4:30)
When your build speed is done, the bulk of your army pops (24 lings) at 4:29
Assuming it takes 20 game seconds for your lings to reach his ramp, puts the game time at 4:50, where 14g/14p will have...
18 Lings and speed complete
so come the time of engagement you basically have a six ling advantage but he can choose to engage at his ramp, buying time for his faster reinforcements. in your build, i didn't account for another overlord to raise the 26 supply cap, since it would delay your last lings losing your advantage, while the defender will have an overlord popping right away, allowing reinforcement. the 14g open will have 4 more drones at this point and mining breaks down:
You have mined a total of 2251 minerals and 326 gas at 4:52 with 14g/14p
You have mined a total of 1984 minerals and 100 gas at 4:50 with your build
Him being able to afford the gas allows for a roach reinforcement or baneling tech, putting him in a much better spot, since you rely on using nearly all your minerals to get out those lings.
So it seems like this build would have trouble vs. a very standard 14g/14p assuming the enemy plays standard (mass lings after 17, get baneling tech) and has an overlord outside your base (or near your base) to see how many you move out with
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On February 12 2011 02:28 Talkerst wrote:
Have you run up against a 6 pool using this build? I know it's not as common now but with only 11 drones and no scouting isn't there a major risk from this build? Even if you run your drones away you will loose your nearly undefended queen which will majorly set back your build. Possibly only an issue on short rush distance maps.
I don't see how you can rely on your zerglings to prevent a scout. Unless your opponent is scouting on like 16 they will see you went for an earlier pool before you have lings. If they also went for an 11-pool (which is somewhat common in zvz) wouldn't the defenders advantage make this strat a near auto loose? I know in your one replay you have vs an 11-pool but they were also going for banelings which will slow down ling production on the defense.
I think the major thing your strat has going for it is it's not standard so people aren't expecting it. However, I can't help but feeling a defensivly minded zerg wouldn't be able to stop this easily with a normally timed scout (around 12 food).
With that said this will win you a lot of games. I do something similar (+1 sling attack out of 11 pool) that wins me most of my zvz. About 50% of zvz the other zerg will try to FE and you'll win straight up. Also, people rushing to roaches will get hit before they have enough roaches out. That's 90% of the games you will play right there.
The point of denying scouting isn't to hide my 11 pool. The point is to hide what I'm doing with it. If I go 11 pool for faster speed (giving me the map control I want) and then just drone up and expand, it looks like a slightly different speedling expand build. But not until you see lings trickling out do the red flags go off, and by then it's difficult to respond to. It's certainly not unstoppable, but I think it is difficult if you can't match ling count and delay the engagement as long as possible.
vs. 6 pool, your lings are out right about the time his lings arrive, and with minimal drone micro you will army trade him and have double his drone count and a queen to boot. Because 14g/p (with proper micro) can defend a 6 pool and come out economically ahead, it stands to reason that an earlier pool with earlier lings would be safer.
If I scout him matching my ling count, I'll do something like a BS as soon as he pushes out, and rely on double spine + reinforcements + my lings retreating once I've killed his drones. I believe this happens in two of the repays I posted.
On February 12 2011 03:25 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:45 michaelhasanalias wrote:
[
I haven't played vs 14gas 14 pool yet, but my guess would be:
at least 6 ling advantage (more if he builds more drones), and ling speed advantage at the time of attack.
14g 14p may be the most common standard opening in ZvZ. That's quite a problem if you haven't tested your build against it. I dowloaded one of your replay, and you have enough gas to start speed research at 3min11. Which is the exact same time the pool pop up with a 14g14pool opening. This means both builds get the speedling research at the same time. The difference is you have 11 drone, the 14g14pool usually make 15 drones. You may have 6 more lings, but you have to cross the map. If you attack the lings count will be even, meaning he will have the advantage thanks to the queen and possibly drones. Unless you managed to out micro your opponent, you shouldn't make much damage here, and you certainly shouldn't be able to kill the 4 drones you need to get even on economy. Looks like your build is countered by 13g13p and 14g14p...
I edited that post (and the OP to be more specific about the replays) to reflect that I did in fact play 14g/p once. Personally I think it should have been a draw after the attack, but due to his poor micro, I was able to win shortly after.
If the player is greedy at all with his 14g/p beyond the opener itself, it seems he's going to be in a very precarious position.
On February 12 2011 04:21 Bitters wrote:
Him being able to afford the gas allows for a roach reinforcement or baneling tech, putting him in a much better spot, since you rely on using nearly all your minerals to get out those lings.
So it seems like this build would have trouble vs. a very standard 14g/14p assuming the enemy plays standard (mass lings after 17, get baneling tech) and has an overlord outside your base (or near your base) to see how many you move out with
In the three games I played yesterday vs. speedling baneling, the player either had to cut too many lings, or in cutting the drones to match my army seemed forced into being aggressive himself. In that game (vs. fenril, replay #3) I just defended his attack with a counter army, and transferred the defender's advantage to me. Had he not attacked I think we'd likely have remain tied until one of us committed to engagement.
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On February 12 2011 02:47 Talkerst wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 02:36 Chaosvuistje wrote:So you want to pressure the other zerg but still be good on macro? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181318Here's my guide on it. Instead of going for an 11 pool and just lings after, I go for a 14gas 14 pool. Which is generally the most adaptable build out there. 11 pool builds HAVE to do damage. 14 gas/14 pool builds don't really rely on having certain damage done to your opponent. Which is why it is the more safe option. I think you are missing the point with his build. Your build is great and something similar to it is used by a lot of zergs. The OP's build was specifically designed to defeat this type of build via early aggression. He will have over double your zergling count when he hits. It's not as solid of a build but it's capitalizing on the weakness of all the more solid builds.
The build in the OP relies on catching the opponents lings out in the open with your superior ling numbers. While this is perfectly fine, and does have its strengths, if I can force him to fight on my ramp and my ramp alone ( which is not hard, park the lings on the top and make sure there arent any cracks ), then his number superiority will be nullified as my reinforcement hit faster.
Not only that, his build cuts gas. Speedlings are great out in the open, especially versus slowlings. But if you go mass speedling, and the opponent backs his lings up with ANY number of banelings, you better micro like Jaedong. Because one wrong move, one wrong engagement, and the zerglings flood into your base and wreck up everything.
The build and the goal it has doesn't make it an unviable build. Its just that if you know how to defend it, you will be at a 3 drone advantage. This doesn't mean that much, since you get total mapcontrol with this build for some time and you can simply retreat and drone up a bit while blocking your own ramp.
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Sorry I can't watch the replays right now, what if a 1base player fights you on the ramp?
-edit- above poster said it as well
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On February 12 2011 17:16 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 02:47 Talkerst wrote:On February 12 2011 02:36 Chaosvuistje wrote:So you want to pressure the other zerg but still be good on macro? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181318Here's my guide on it. Instead of going for an 11 pool and just lings after, I go for a 14gas 14 pool. Which is generally the most adaptable build out there. 11 pool builds HAVE to do damage. 14 gas/14 pool builds don't really rely on having certain damage done to your opponent. Which is why it is the more safe option. I think you are missing the point with his build. Your build is great and something similar to it is used by a lot of zergs. The OP's build was specifically designed to defeat this type of build via early aggression. He will have over double your zergling count when he hits. It's not as solid of a build but it's capitalizing on the weakness of all the more solid builds. The build in the OP relies on catching the opponents lings out in the open with your superior ling numbers. While this is perfectly fine, and does have its strengths, if I can force him to fight on my ramp and my ramp alone ( which is not hard, park the lings on the top and make sure there arent any cracks ), then his number superiority will be nullified as my reinforcement hit faster. Not only that, his build cuts gas. Speedlings are great out in the open, especially versus slowlings. But if you go mass speedling, and the opponent backs his lings up with ANY number of banelings, you better micro like Jaedong. Because one wrong move, one wrong engagement, and the zerglings flood into your base and wreck up everything. The build and the goal it has doesn't make it an unviable build. Its just that if you know how to defend it, you will be at a 3 drone advantage. This doesn't mean that much, since you get total mapcontrol with this build for some time and you can simply retreat and drone up a bit while blocking your own ramp.
If someone rushes banelings, you would abandon this build and just defend/drone. If he just transitions to banelings as a counter, he will likely lose outright. 2 of the replays I posted (1 removed) involved users who seemed to have the goal of going speedling expand and transitioned to speedling/baneling upon realizing that I had cut drones at 11 for the foreseeable future. There just isn't enough time to do that unless you already had plans to go baneling independent of your scouting information.
Regarding the last paragraph, I do agree with you that if properly responded to, one would either force a non-engagement, or defend and come out ahead.
The reason I believe this build is working so well is that players simply have a false sense of timing security when they transition to banelings as a response. Quite simply, you can't buy enough time to transition unless you had already planned and were executing it by the time you know I'm producing only lings.
If I see baneling tech rushed though with my scouting lings, I'll abandon this and it goes into normal zvz stuff. I may be slightly behind, but it's I can match his drone count once he matches my ling count.
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On February 12 2011 17:34 michaelhasanalias wrote:If someone rushes banelings...
Mind discussing the ramp block issue that negates ling speed and number advantage?
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On February 12 2011 17:49 eth3n wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 17:34 michaelhasanalias wrote:If someone rushes banelings... Mind discussing the ramp block issue that negates ling speed and number advantage?
If someone rushes banelings, you just wouldn't attack. When you scout with your first 2 lings, you would just drone up and drop 1-2 spines.
If he's transitioning to baneling in response, there just isn't enough time to do it AND block your ramp AND defend the banelings in your base AND get them out in time.
I don't think it's possible to delay engagement this long.
You can ramp block with 3 roaches and a queen, but I don't think there's time to get a 4th roach out if you're doing any sort of standard 1-base roach (with a reasonable scout timing).
We can debate the finer points though, but I do agree this build is definitely beatable (no build is unbeatable)... it's just that the response needs to be both timely and correct in order to successfully defend or stalemate.
I'm going to ladder more tonight and if I get any more zvz matchups I'll try to post them, especially if what you refer to happens.
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Oh I just meant more generally, not necessarily baneling play. With a build like this one, its obvious that if a defender can delay it long enough with any response, they win (or have a substantial advantage) as long as they still have their drones after the engagement. As you said in your OP, every second counts. And the ramp seemingly provides the best opportunity to this.
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I liked to do this build quite a bit for a while, as against most openings it either wins or just requires good micro to come out on top. I now switch it up with a different build and try to defend with banelings into an expo and roaches ideally, but I still think the speedling expand build is great if you can micro well.
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Just lost with this build for the first time when reasonably executing it. One of the top players on SEA was nice enough to give me a custom before GSL start and I tried it on him. He didn't know it was coming, but it looks like I lost because I was microing a forward ling and didn't make my inject set in time (they were 20 seconds late and basically missed the fight).
Still I think it's a good rep, and I'd say I decently executed this build, although I think I missed the timing window because I was almost 25 seconds late.
 vs TAEdgE vs Michael ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png) (against 15h roach, late lings, loss)
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Can I ask you kindly not to caps each word you want to stress?
That putting aside: What you are doing in here is just making as many lings as possible, and trying to kill him. If he's not deadn you expand. If your zerglings will die, you will not be able to make an expansion.
It's like you're doing a 6pool and because you killed his economy, you will expand xD
Nothing new here
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These type of builds are becoming more and more popular in ZvZ. And from my own experience it's extremely hard to survive with any typ of FE build.
However, I do believe it is quite easy to scout and react correctly. On normal scout timing (10th drone) you will scout the gas before pool which instantly tells you that early agression is coming. I always react by delaying Zergling speed and getting 4 roaches out as fast as possible (on a 14p/14g BO). Once your main ramp is blocked the entire point of the build has been nullified and you can safely tech and do a roach timing attack or drone/expand once you're sure you have sufficient roaches.
P.S. Creep sim city is also nice to block a delayed MASS speedling all-in (which often is the followup if the first attack is blocked)
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On February 28 2011 23:01 Kraelog wrote:
These type of builds are becoming more and more popular in ZvZ. And from my own experience it's extremely hard to survive with any typ of FE build.
However, I do believe it is quite easy to scout and react correctly. On normal scout timing (10th drone) you will scout the gas before pool which instantly tells you that early agression is coming. I always react by delaying Zergling speed and getting 4 roaches out as fast as possible (on a 14p/14g BO). Once your main ramp is blocked the entire point of the build has been nullified and you can safely tech and do a roach timing attack or drone/expand once you're sure you have sufficient roaches.
P.S. Creep sim city is also nice to block a delayed MASS speedling all-in (which often is the followup if the first attack is blocked)
There are a few replays where this is attempted and fails. I think your best bet trying something like that would be a queen and 3 roaches, or roach/queen/couple lings. You usually don't have time to get the roaches out and to your ramp and in position. (Also most zergs will put a forward overlord around opponent's natural, and after my initial queen inject, I attempt to kill that overlord so as to supply block/delay you or cost you a larva at the least.)
1-base roach is inherently weaker than speedling expand in most cases, and if you do manage to seal your ramp, I can just drone and not attack. If you do manage to block, it's because you've either cut drones to get there (not as much as me) or you skipped speed, or both. In that case, my expansion is going up as you block, and I'll have saturated both bases and have my own warren by the time you push.
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EPT
