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On March 03 2011 18:55 ThisIsSparta_ wrote:
And what if your opponent sees your two spines and decides not to engage and just drone up like you?
your opponent would have a 5 drone advantage and you have to spend 200 mins for spines, while he can use his map control to expand. (when you played fenril and scouted the baneling nest you immediately throw down a roach warren additional to your spines, so there is for you to gain map control before you get the speed up for your roaches).
you cannot keep up with your opponents econ if he decides to outmacro you. you cannot move out with your roaches without speed up, you need to make a at least 10 roaches before you can expand, otherwise you would not be able to defend it, so you fall even more behind.
No way to beat a two base zerg while your on 1 base.
This extends far into the realm of theorycraft, and beyond the scope of discussion in this thread. In your world you can also pop 45 ultralisks at 15 minutes and hold me to 1 base the entire time. The real game is played differently.
I'ts not a default decision to drop a few spines, but if I'm scouting cut drones and many lings, I'm going to spine expecting an attack. If there are early banes and not a lot of lings, I know it's defensive.
There are so many factors that go into the follow-up decision-making that it's really not worth discussing unless it comes up.
I do like that you're continually trying to shoot theorycraft holes into a strategy that has been working well. I openly admit that early bling is going to force a transition out of this build. I don't see why you think that's going to end the game. It doesn't necessarily give you any sort of advantage unless I attack you.
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I have been using this build for 2 months.
Except that I get 1 more drone than you do, which means that I am able to get an expand up when rush fails if it does so...
And, I don't use it against Z as much. I use it against protoss.
It will bust down anyone not doing a proper wall including forge. It powers through the "1 zealot + 1 sentry or stalker" start that most people do.
So just a tip: try your build against protoss too, it works up to mid masters on euro servers quite well. And if you scout the full wall including at least 2 cannons, you can abandon at 18 supply to expand super safe. If they did a forge fast expand, normally you can power through - depending on map.
I started using it because I got so annoyed with the forge expands that messed with my expands 
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On March 03 2011 20:34 aebriol wrote:I have been using this build for 2 months. Except that I get 1 more drone than you do, which means that I am able to get an expand up when rush fails if it does so... And, I don't use it against Z as much. I use it against protoss. It will bust down anyone not doing a proper wall including forge. It powers through the "1 zealot + 1 sentry or stalker" start that most people do. So just a tip: try your build against protoss too, it works up to mid masters on euro servers quite well. And if you scout the full wall including at least 2 cannons, you can abandon at 18 supply to expand super safe. If they did a forge fast expand, normally you can power through - depending on map. I started using it because I got so annoyed with the forge expands that messed with my expands
(off topic)
I don't see how you will beat a protoss with mass speedling. I was doing that until I started laddering consistently, and it worked until about mid-plat, when they start making units.
The only thing I can think where this could work with modification is sending 2 drones to hit the zealot on the rear.
Sending lings in against sentry/stalker/zealot where 1 ling attacks at a time seems like a meat grinder, but I guess if it's working for you that's good.
The only way I'd do this build against toss though is if I sent drones to attack the zealot too. I suppose it's possible to maybe have the scouting drone still alive such that you could just send 1 drone? maybe?
You can definitely squeeze an extra drone in when the overlord pops and before the queen, but it lowers the number of speedlings you can send to the opponent (a non-issue if you're running up a wall and attacking 1 ling at a time vs zealot).
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On March 03 2011 21:36 michaelhasanalias wrote:
(off topic)
I don't see how you will beat a protoss with mass speedling. I was doing that until I started laddering consistently, and it worked until about mid-plat, when they start making units.
The only thing I can think where this could work with modification is sending 2 drones to hit the zealot on the rear.
Sending lings in against sentry/stalker/zealot where 1 ling attacks at a time seems like a meat grinder, but I guess if it's working for you that's good.
The only way I'd do this build against toss though is if I sent drones to attack the zealot too. I suppose it's possible to maybe have the scouting drone still alive such that you could just send 1 drone? maybe?
You can definitely squeeze an extra drone in when the overlord pops and before the queen, but it lowers the number of speedlings you can send to the opponent (a non-issue if you're running up a wall and attacking 1 ling at a time vs zealot).
Well you will beat him because he has no units and it comes as a surprise when he has 1 zealot, and is getting out his second unit, with most standard builds?
- 1 zealot or 1 zealot + stalker / sentry is what is normally there.
- It hits before more gateways are done in almost all builds.
- If he went stargate, it kills him off before it's out.
- It hits before warpgate is done in all builds.
- 1 zealot cannot defend against 10+ zerglings, even when just one attack at a time. And once it's dead, you have free entrance to the base with your reinforcements, and you outproduce him.
Basically you have 6 zerglings out at 18 supply, make an overlord, and kill off his scout / scout his front. If he made a normal build, you continue to attack when speed finish, and he has a hard time to defend.
Just try it. Most protoss believe they are safe with 1 zealot completing their wall, is why it works.
I'll get ahold of a replay and show how it works when I get home.
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On March 03 2011 19:20 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 18:55 ThisIsSparta_ wrote:
And what if your opponent sees your two spines and decides not to engage and just drone up like you?
your opponent would have a 5 drone advantage and you have to spend 200 mins for spines, while he can use his map control to expand. (when you played fenril and scouted the baneling nest you immediately throw down a roach warren additional to your spines, so there is for you to gain map control before you get the speed up for your roaches).
you cannot keep up with your opponents econ if he decides to outmacro you. you cannot move out with your roaches without speed up, you need to make a at least 10 roaches before you can expand, otherwise you would not be able to defend it, so you fall even more behind.
No way to beat a two base zerg while your on 1 base.
This extends far into the realm of theorycraft, and beyond the scope of discussion in this thread. In your world you can also pop 45 ultralisks at 15 minutes and hold me to 1 base the entire time. The real game is played differently. I'ts not a default decision to drop a few spines, but if I'm scouting cut drones and many lings, I'm going to spine expecting an attack. If there are early banes and not a lot of lings, I know it's defensive. There are so many factors that go into the follow-up decision-making that it's really not worth discussing unless it comes up. I do like that you're continually trying to shoot theorycraft holes into a strategy that has been working well. I openly admit that early bling is going to force a transition out of this build. I don't see why you think that's going to end the game. It doesn't necessarily give you any sort of advantage unless I attack you.
if you post your build you have to expect that people will discuss it. so whats the problem?
i just said how i would react to your build.
could you tell me how you would transition out of this build? you throw down 2 spines to be safe and drone up. you scout me and you see that i am doing the same and i am expanding.
what will you do?
btw its fact that i will be ahead in econ ( 15 drones to 9), and its an significant advantage so early on in the game. its a fact and not my imagination.
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Here's an example vs protoss (84 in masters on EU, so not too good a player).
http://www.mediafire.com/?cv9is73ncbx97zr
Yes, it's possible to block, but you have to know how - and most players don't it seems. I am sure it won't work most of the time on > 3200 master EU players, but on diamond and low masters, it has a really high success rate.
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oh so this is basically the speedling expo at 22 except it is at 26
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I like this build very much.. Best thing in ZvZ since 7pool double crawler. =3
It also works really well against Protoss as well, and against Terran you can transition to an easy baneling bust with it.
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To be honest, with good execution many players can hold this off by even doing a hatch first. I just don't understand why people go any other build than hatch first speedling into roach in ZvZ. I don't think any other build is superior. Even 6 pool can be beaten with the drone micro trick. I don't think anyone can really debate this. To learn ZvZ the right way, I'd recommend watching Mr. Bitter's vods of him and ret talking over ZvZ. It made me actually realize that your mindset should be just like the other matchups. Drones drones drones and uh.... more drones?
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On March 04 2011 06:43 Farkinator wrote:
To be honest, with good execution many players can hold this off by even doing a hatch first. I just don't understand why people go any other build than hatch first speedling into roach in ZvZ. I don't think any other build is superior. Even 6 pool can be beaten with the drone micro trick. I don't think anyone can really debate this. To learn ZvZ the right way, I'd recommend watching Mr. Bitter's vods of him and ret talking over ZvZ. It made me actually realize that your mindset should be just like the other matchups. Drones drones drones and uh.... more drones?
i think its because 1 little missclick will cost you the game. really hard to hold early aggression off, possible but really hard.
well in zvz you cannot just drone up like in other match ups, i know ret is drowning like crazy, but he is awesome and there a few people out there who can play his style ( as bitter said).
you have to be really careful in zvz, drone to much and you are fucked..
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On March 04 2011 06:43 Farkinator wrote:
To be honest, with good execution many players can hold this off by even doing a hatch first. I just don't understand why people go any other build than hatch first speedling into roach in ZvZ. I don't think any other build is superior. Even 6 pool can be beaten with the drone micro trick. I don't think anyone can really debate this. To learn ZvZ the right way, I'd recommend watching Mr. Bitter's vods of him and ret talking over ZvZ. It made me actually realize that your mindset should be just like the other matchups. Drones drones drones and uh.... more drones?
The only time hatch first is going to beat this build is if the lings are late. The replay vs. Edge is a great example of this. Had I hit with 10 more lings in the initial attack (instead of 10 lings 20 seconds later) the game would have ended, and Edge is one of the best zergs on SEA. Even at that, he used some pretty insane micro to fend it off. (Not taking anything away from him, as he's obviously a great player.)
On March 04 2011 00:42 aebriol wrote:Here's an example vs protoss (84 in masters on EU, so not too good a player). http://www.mediafire.com/?cv9is73ncbx97zrYes, it's possible to block, but you have to know how - and most players don't it seems. I am sure it won't work most of the time on > 3200 master EU players, but on diamond and low masters, it has a really high success rate.
(off topic)
Personally if I'm going to cheese a guy and rely on him not knowing some basic response, I'd rather 6pool toss than do this and hope he doesn't wall behind the zealot.
One thing I do find interesting though is that you have two lings able to attack his zealot. Is this his error, or is it due to the building placement or map? If I could ensure 2 lings attack the zealot every time, I'd have less of an issue doing a build like this.
edit: Here's a replay a friend was helping me test this idea. He says he miffed a FF otherwise he thinks he would have been okay, and I think I agree, but maybe it's worth posting anyway.
 vs  Michael vs NoFilter ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png)
The biggest thing is that unless your opponent is a silly goose and puts his core along the not-straight wall above any ramp, only 1 ling at a time can attack.
I'll mess around with this more, but if anything seems to come to fruition, I'll make a new thread, so as not to derail this one too much.
edit2: another friend of mine offered to help me test this.
vs Michael vs Slapstick
He said his 2nd sentry was late, so maybe that would have been the difference. (would finish at 5:12)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/ifsQT.jpg)
I micro'd my drones pretty poorly (still learning execution myself) and his zealot wasn't in perfect wall position because he had never played this map, but if the zealot was in position, I think it's exposed to 2 lings at a time. The ramp on SP is slanted, meaning either the zealot won't complete the wall, or he will be exposed to double zingling.
very interesting....
edit3:
Here's another replay where the sentry definitely comes out on time. I mineral walked 2 drones (probably should have sent 3).
vs Michael vs NoFilter
I think I'm going to make a new thread... this is a cool strat. Especially on Slag Pits, and possibly other new maps that have slanted ramp walls, because 2 lings can hit the zealot at a time. That's a really big deal.
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On March 04 2011 09:32 michaelhasanalias wrote:I micro'd my drones pretty poorly (still learning execution myself) and his zealot wasn't in perfect wall position because he had never played this map, but if the zealot was in position, I think it's exposed to 2 lings at a time. The ramp on SP is slanted, meaning either the zealot won't complete the wall, or he will be exposed to double zingling. very interesting.... edit3: Here's another replay where the sentry definitely comes out on time. I mineral walked 2 drones (probably should have sent 3). vs Michael vs NoFilter I think I'm going to make a new thread... this is a cool strat. Especially on Slag Pits, and possibly other new maps that have slanted ramp walls, because 2 lings can hit the zealot at a time. That's a really big deal.
Make no mistake, it is nearly an all in (if you can scout with your overlord, and have a place to hide it afterward so it doesn't die, you can transition into econ because of queen, but you are behind quite a lot).
The proper response is scouting, checking drone count, realize it's an all in, and wall off with another building. Forge or gateway. Forge with 1 or 2 cannons kills it dead of course.
Most peoples response on ladder has been "lucky, I almost had 2nd sentry out" - but no, they didn't, because it hits before you get out 2 sentries in normal builds. And a cannon started late, is no problem.
Since no one rushes like this, I think I have like 80% success rate with it. ZvP is my worst matchup, and when I am just losing to them in normal games, I get annoyed and just do this.
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On March 04 2011 15:44 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 09:32 michaelhasanalias wrote:I micro'd my drones pretty poorly (still learning execution myself) and his zealot wasn't in perfect wall position because he had never played this map, but if the zealot was in position, I think it's exposed to 2 lings at a time. The ramp on SP is slanted, meaning either the zealot won't complete the wall, or he will be exposed to double zingling. very interesting.... edit3: Here's another replay where the sentry definitely comes out on time. I mineral walked 2 drones (probably should have sent 3). vs Michael vs NoFilter I think I'm going to make a new thread... this is a cool strat. Especially on Slag Pits, and possibly other new maps that have slanted ramp walls, because 2 lings can hit the zealot at a time. That's a really big deal. Make no mistake, it is nearly an all in (if you can scout with your overlord, and have a place to hide it afterward so it doesn't die, you can transition into econ because of queen, but you are behind quite a lot). The proper response is scouting, checking drone count, realize it's an all in, and wall off with another building. Forge or gateway. Forge with 1 or 2 cannons kills it dead of course. Most peoples response on ladder has been "lucky, I almost had 2nd sentry out" - but no, they didn't, because it hits before you get out 2 sentries in normal builds. And a cannon started late, is no problem. Since no one rushes like this, I think I have like 80% success rate with it. ZvP is my worst matchup, and when I am just losing to them in normal games, I get annoyed and just do this.
You don't even need to do that. Just make a 2nd zealot if you scout those early pool shenanigans, and you're safe. It mitigates the mineral walk and makes your wall take twice as many ling deaths to break. then the third sentry can FF at ~5:10-5:15 and you're good to go.
That kind of overreaction is what loses games against better players imo.
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Added new replays and modified OP slightly:
vs Michael vs HyperGeist (against fast baneling aggression)
This was an interesting game because I couldn't really get vision of his base, although I was almost positive he was going banelings based on his ling count and where he tried to hide them.
He went 10 pool baneling before meta, and we almost base traded, but I was able to just barely hold it off.
I think if he had opted to delay meta and for an extra 1-2 banelings it might have made the difference.
vs Michael vs 콩라인득도 against 14h cross-slag
vs Michael vs Angel against 10pool speedling (~close game)
This game was interesting because I thought for whatever reason he 6-8 pooled me. I countered his spine aggression by triple-spining, not realizing until it was too late that he had 10 pooled me. Because of that gaffe, this game was closer than it should have been.
I still am a big advocate of 11pool speedling > 10pool speedling. My speed was late because I forgot to put on gas after my pool, but I still was only very slightly later in speed than he was, and it was between engagements.
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On March 04 2011 07:36 ThisIsSparta_ wrote:
i think its because 1 little missclick will cost you the game. really hard to hold early aggression off, possible but really hard.
well in zvz you cannot just drone up like in other match ups, i know ret is drowning like crazy, but he is awesome and there a few people out there who can play his style ( as bitter said).
you have to be really careful in zvz, drone to much and you are fucked..
Who said any other Zerg matchup isn't like this? Every Zerg matchup is about knowing WHEN to build drones, and I actually find it a lot easier to tell when to drone and when to not drone in ZvZ than other matchups because you can look at his buildings, your buildings, and keep comparing in order to get a good sense of what he'll be doing in the near future. This allows you to know how many drones and how many units to build. I don't know; it's just a lot easier to get reads off of Zerg players for me because maybe I just understand the race's possibilities a lot more than the other races. I'd like to play a little Terran to really know what their options are (I offraced as Protoss for a couple weeks and now I feel much more confident ZvP)
It is a good point, however, that hatch first is sometimes VERY VERY hard to execute against some very aggressive openings, and a lot of the time comes down to that one Zergling that you pulled back at the last second to get another hit in. However, I think that you'll win a whole lot more games just going Hatch first than trying a bunch of different all-in builds. Maybe that's just me, but I've been doing Hatch first for quite some time after a long history of overpooling etc. and my win ratio in zvz is something crazy like 90%. I'm only 3.1K diamond, so maybe I'm not the best person to speak to this, but I feel much more comfortable doing a hatch first and overwhelming with eventual roach infestor play. Probably just a stylistic thing. Everyone has their differences I guess.
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On March 11 2011 05:16 Farkinator wrote:
It is a good point, however, that hatch first is sometimes VERY VERY hard to execute against some very aggressive openings, and a lot of the time comes down to that one Zergling that you pulled back at the last second to get another hit in. However, I think that you'll win a whole lot more games just going Hatch first than trying a bunch of different all-in builds. Maybe that's just me, but I've been doing Hatch first for quite some time after a long history of overpooling etc. and my win ratio in zvz is something crazy like 90%. I'm only 3.1K diamond, so maybe I'm not the best person to speak to this, but I feel much more comfortable doing a hatch first and overwhelming with eventual roach infestor play. Probably just a stylistic thing. Everyone has their differences I guess.
Yeah this is a good way to play if your opponent is not very aggressive. It's certainly true that the style I recommend in the OP is for "quick win" type, but it's also a very high chance to end the game.
If I "greedily" invest in extra army at the expense of economy and you "greedily" invest in extra economy at the expense of army, I'm going to beat you.
However, if you "greedily" invest in extra economy and I don't take advantage of it, then of course you will be at the advantage.
I mean that is the crux of how 15hatch came about. It punishes quite well the very standard economical 14gas/pool opening by taking that extra economic advantage that simply can't be taken advantage of if you get the standard gas/pool timing.
By comparison, this variant of 26 speedling build punishes ANY investment into economy beyond the standard, including any hatch first play. I think that if properly executed, there just isn't a way to survive against this aggression if you open with a hatch first (equal skill withstanding), but of course perhaps I just never encountered it.
Lately I have been playing more games on the Korean ladder, and I have had similar success (although korean server players tend to be less concessionary and will continue fighting until they have nothing left).
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On March 02 2011 17:34 Communism wrote:
Yeah I agree with Sparta, i play 14 gas/ 14 pool ling/bane opener as a standard ZvZ on most maps, even with the new map pool and my baneling nest finishes at 4:20 every time (unless of course I scout a roach warren), which is just in time to shred your timing attack I feel like.
Also, my speed starts at 3:00 or so, sometimes a lil quicker sometimes a lil later (~3 seconds) so that means at absolute most if i horribly fuck up at the beginning you will have a 6 second window where i dont have speed and you do. And keep in mind if you push at 5 minutes, I will have seen your mass lings with my scouting lings and will have left 2 banes in my base and moved out with more banes and my lings.
I think that there is no viable way you can expect any pure speedling play to hold up against the standard ling/bane opener, unless serious mistakes are made by the ling/bane player. I mean the ling/bane opener is designed to counter any sort of pure speedling play.
Felt worth a bump to respond to this.
After playing a bit more and maybe partly because this is starting to become more popular in ZvZ, I've lost a couple times lately to 14gas/13pool speedling baneling. The banes are up in time if you plan to do them before (which i'd recommend in all honesty, independent of what the opponent may or may not be doing).
For someone who executes it WELL, it's almost a free win. If he doesn't, then he'll still lose.
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Very good build. One easy counter is a Zerg who pumps out two fast queens and hold the ramp while teching.
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On February 11 2011 23:35 michaelhasanalias wrote:
While this build most certainly is NOT all-in due to it being a mirror matchup, it most definitely DOES depend on you dealing SIGNIFICANT damage to your opponent.
A build that needs to do significant damage to your opponent in order to not be behind is about as close to the definition of "all-in" as I can imagine.
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On March 20 2011 11:29 moxie wrote:
Very good build. One easy counter is a Zerg who pumps out two fast queens and hold the ramp while teching.
This is not a viable counter to my build. The queens will get eaten alive vs lings, and unless you had lings in front while the queens did damage, you aren't going to defend it.
Against 9 pool double queen, you have far superior ling count, and his queens don't get in position to wall until about 20 seconds before you attack. You can always attack with 16 lings 30 seconds sooner, and he won't have the ability to wall or more than ~6 lings himself.
A wall can be a terrible ally, especially when you have a false sense of security because of it.
On March 20 2011 13:10 hizBALLIN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 23:35 michaelhasanalias wrote:
While this build most certainly is NOT all-in due to it being a mirror matchup, it most definitely DOES depend on you dealing SIGNIFICANT damage to your opponent. A build that needs to do significant damage to your opponent in order to not be behind is about as close to the definition of "all-in" as I can imagine.
This has been discussed for a few pages. It's not, and calling it "all-in" doesn't make it so. No build that gets you an expansion up is all-in, and it is possible with scouting to abandon this build if you see fast banes. Anything else is going to lose to this. (Although 4g/p baneling is the most common opener.)
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EPT
