EPT[G] ZvZ: 26 Speedling Expand Aggression - Page 3
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Titilisk
96 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
By your definition, 6 pool isn't all-in because 6 pool requires to deal a lot of damage to the opponent to stay at an advantage (or win). This is all-in in the sense that if you either don't attack with the lings, or can't deal damage with the lings, you are at a large disadvantage. simcity + sunken/queen/ling would defend this well as long as the pool is built a a good time (11 over pool, 12-14 pool). That said, I will not say the build is bad, because hatch-first, and later pools are rather common builds that might not hold up well as long as one micros well vs. the enemy. On March 01 2011 09:22 sylverfyre wrote: Yeah, it has to do damage, but it has such a huge advantage to do so against the current metagame's standard "safe" openings. Speedlings vs roaches is actually kinda difficult for the roaches when the lings are in these numbers. I either disagree with you, or you're using "safe" to mean not actually safe. A safe build is 11overpool to 14 pool. While 14 pool would have more trouble, these builds should be able to deal with it, and will be ahead when fending it off, that's how safe builds work. If you run a more risky build like 10 pool (which this essentially is) or 14 hatch, you're then taking risks on one side of the spectrum in hopes to gain an advantage against a player doing another type of build. | ||
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ThisIsSparta_
Austria39 Posts
if there is a similar post to this one: sorry but i dont have the time to read all of them.  | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 01 2011 22:30 ThisIsSparta_ wrote: are you sure this build can beat a defensive baneling play?all i have to do is to morph two banes in my mineral line and i am safe. or can you even win against a speedling opening ( 14 gas/14 pool build) into defensive baneling? if there is a similar post to this one: sorry but i dont have the time to read all of them. The issue is timing. Roughly half of my games, I play against something like gas/pool speedling expand that transitions from expand into defensive baneling. The entire basis of this build is to overwhelm with speedlings during a critical timing window (about 25 seconds) that overlaps in almost every standard build. The reason this fails almost every time is because you have to know that this is what i'm doing, and it's not really possible before ~3:30 (assuming you have good spotting). Then, assuming you realized it, you have to drop a baneling nest immediately, and morph banes immediately. Since your gas is later, you may not be able to drop the nest immediately even though you may know the proper response and realize it immediately. Assuming you had the minerals/gas to drop a baneling nest (no certainty), you have 90 seconds from when it's possible to figure out and when I try to kill you. That leaves a 10 second window to say "hey, he's massing lings," gather the resources for a baneling nest, then drop one. In games where the opponent transitions to defensive baneling, I would say roughly half of them involve me engaging him as his banelings are morphing. The game vs. Fenril (plat) is a great example of defensive baneling that turns into heavy aggression, and I would say it is definitely the closest game. We reached basically a stalemate until one of us (him) decided to engage. Lastly and most importantly though, since you can't deny scouting with the first two lings (unless you do something like 9pool double queen), if I see what looks like a rush baneling that can defend what I will do, I can always just spine/drone and back off. In order for you to have the ability to defend what I'm doing, you have to at least match my ling count, and I can just drone. Even though this looks like an all-in to some, it's incredibly easy to transition out of, and the threat of this build is going to force army production from the other player, at which point you can drone hard and break even or come out ahead (this happens in a few games as well). | ||
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ThisIsSparta_
Austria39 Posts
On March 02 2011 08:34 michaelhasanalias wrote: The issue is timing. Roughly half of my games, I play against something like gas/pool speedling expand that transitions from expand into defensive baneling. The entire basis of this build is to overwhelm with speedlings during a critical timing window (about 25 seconds) that overlaps in almost every standard build. The reason this fails almost every time is because you have to know that this is what i'm doing, and it's not really possible before ~3:30 (assuming you have good spotting). Then, assuming you realized it, you have to drop a baneling nest immediately, and morph banes immediately. Since your gas is later, you may not be able to drop the nest immediately even though you may know the proper response and realize it immediately. Assuming you had the minerals/gas to drop a baneling nest (no certainty), you have 90 seconds from when it's possible to figure out and when I try to kill you. That leaves a 10 second window to say "hey, he's massing lings," gather the resources for a baneling nest, then drop one. In games where the opponent transitions to defensive baneling, I would say roughly half of them involve me engaging him as his banelings are morphing. The game vs. Fenril (plat) is a great example of defensive baneling that turns into heavy aggression, and I would say it is definitely the closest game. We reached basically a stalemate until one of us (him) decided to engage. Lastly and most importantly though, since you can't deny scouting with the first two lings (unless you do something like 9pool double queen), if I see what looks like a rush baneling that can defend what I will do, I can always just spine/drone and back off. In order for you to have the ability to defend what I'm doing, you have to at least match my ling count, and I can just drone. Even though this looks like an all-in to some, it's incredibly easy to transition out of, and the threat of this build is going to force army production from the other player, at which point you can drone hard and break even or come out ahead (this happens in a few games as well). baneling opening means that i build my baneling nest right after speed upgrade at 15 supply, not after i scouted you and saw that you are massing speedlings. could you give me a timing when your lings will attack my base? i dont mean your first 6 lings, coz they are not that much of a thread. i mean the lings you get after your first injection. i will post the timing when i get my first baneling. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 02 2011 16:29 ThisIsSparta_ wrote: baneling opening means that i build my baneling nest right after speed upgrade at 15 supply, not after i scouted you and saw that you are massing speedlings. could you give me a timing when your lings will attack my base? i dont mean your first 6 lings, coz they are not that much of a thread. i mean the lings you get after your first injection. i will post the timing when i get my first baneling. All that information is in the OP. If you were to rush baneling nest, you can't deny my scouting with the first two lings, and when I see it is almost done when I scout you, rather than make 45 more lings, I'll just make 2 spines and drone up. From there, we'll be more or less even and play a standard game. If you attack, you'll probably lose the game due to BS / double spine. | ||
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Communism
United States176 Posts
Also, my speed starts at 3:00 or so, sometimes a lil quicker sometimes a lil later (~3 seconds) so that means at absolute most if i horribly fuck up at the beginning you will have a 6 second window where i dont have speed and you do. And keep in mind if you push at 5 minutes, I will have seen your mass lings with my scouting lings and will have left 2 banes in my base and moved out with more banes and my lings. I think that there is no viable way you can expect any pure speedling play to hold up against the standard ling/bane opener, unless serious mistakes are made by the ling/bane player. I mean the ling/bane opener is designed to counter any sort of pure speedling play. | ||
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Communism
United States176 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 02 2011 17:34 Communism wrote: Yeah I agree with Sparta, i play 14 gas/ 14 pool ling/bane opener as a standard ZvZ on most maps, even with the new map pool and my baneling nest finishes at 4:20 every time (unless of course I scout a roach warren), which is just in time to shred your timing attack I feel like. Also, my speed starts at 3:00 or so, sometimes a lil quicker sometimes a lil later (~3 seconds) so that means at absolute most if i horribly fuck up at the beginning you will have a 6 second window where i dont have speed and you do. And keep in mind if you push at 5 minutes, I will have seen your mass lings with my scouting lings and will have left 2 banes in my base and moved out with more banes and my lings. I think that there is no viable way you can expect any pure speedling play to hold up against the standard ling/bane opener, unless serious mistakes are made by the ling/bane player. I mean the ling/bane opener is designed to counter any sort of pure speedling play. you can theorycraft all day. This build is clearly beatable and starting banelings immediately is one way to do it. In almost all ZvZ games I play, the opponent does an opening very similar to you. In most of those games, the banes are usually morphing as I attack, and half the drones are gone by the time you get the banes out, if I don't focus fire them (usually I do). The issue you're going to run into with your strategy is that I'll just attack you sooner if it's that close, and you can't defend morphing banelings when I have 2-3x your army supply. The game probably won't end and will likely be even before and after the exchange, but it's by no means a counter to go 14pool speedling baneling. If you don't match my ling count you're going to die, and if you rush banes AND match my ling count, we'll be even until one of us attacks. There are few real options that you can do to outright beat/stagnate this, and two of them require omniscience, and so aren't really viable: 1) 7RR. As silly as 7RR would be in ZvZ, The roaches would all be out by 4:45, and with drone micro to clog up attack lanes, you would probably crush my army if I engaged, which I probably would, since I'd be in your base as the roaches pop. 2) early pool (9-10) baneling rush. You'd forego speed early banelings, giving you the ability to both deny scouting and keep me in my base. I'd likely spine, but it would certainly force a transition out of this build. 3) Any economical 1-base opener with 2-spines started by 4 minutes and decent drone micro. You don't need to attack with the drones, just use them to make sure I can't get surrounds on the spines, and you'll win without losing anything but maybe your queen. 4) 14 pool speedling baneling. If executed properly, you'll force either non-aggression, or some sort of stalemate. It doesn't counter 26 speedling expand, but it can give you a slight economic advantage. It's still very risky if you don't make enough lings or make too many drones, and you can still die very easily. | ||
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ThisIsSparta_
Austria39 Posts
On March 02 2011 17:27 michaelhasanalias wrote: All that information is in the OP. If you were to rush baneling nest, you can't deny my scouting with the first two lings, and when I see it is almost done when I scout you, rather than make 45 more lings, I'll just make 2 spines and drone up. From there, we'll be more or less even and play a standard game. If you attack, you'll probably lose the game due to BS / double spine. [/QUOTE] i dont think that we would be even. i have a 4 drone advantage early on, then you make 2 spines, so i get agead even more ( 2 spines 200 mins, 2 drones 100 mins). i wouldnt try to kill you with banes when i see 2 spines going up. i would just match your ling count to gain map control, expand, throw down a roach warren and opt for lair tech, so i can make fast upgrades and do a timing push. dont think there is any chance that you can hold this off. i am not saying your build is easy to counter, coz you would kill every fe, without being too all in. but i think a baneling play can counter this build. coz you only drone up to 15 supply and then get lings till your safe ( no more drones!) i would play defensive until i can match your ling count and then i would force you back to your base and react to what you are doing. if you play defensive and drone up, i would expand and drone up myself. ( you cannot expand) if you are massing more lings...well -> banelings though i believe you that its a tough build to counter, and i would have to micro well to hold it off. but i dont think its possible to just drone up and transition into a standart game, when you dont do any damage to your opponents econ. but of course i could be wrong , could you provide a replay to prove that this build is also strong against baneling play?btw sry for my english  | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 02 2011 20:24 ThisIsSparta_ wrote: could you provide a replay to prove that this build is also strong against baneling play? btw sry for my english More than half the games I posted the opponent attempted to go baneling. I suppose if I find a game where the banes get out, then sure. It hasn't happened yet, but it's certainly possible. | ||
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loiop
34 Posts
 )but i still think this build is a quite nice becouse theres so many other "normal" builds that u see in ladder that this build crushes through and even alot of 14pool variations loses against this and huge number of wrong decisions from opponent will give you an edge in my opinion and I hate it when greedy zergs go hatch first and im sure from my own experience this build has major advantage over it (atleast on my level) anyway thanks for the build ill definitely start using this for fun and see how it truly works against different builds. | ||
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ThisIsSparta_
Austria39 Posts
On March 02 2011 20:29 michaelhasanalias wrote: More than half the games I posted the opponent attempted to go baneling. I suppose if I find a game where the banes get out, then sure. It hasn't happened yet, but it's certainly possible. forgot that you already posted replays , my bad.i just want to see if any of the guys you played followed the correct bo and are microing well. when you open baneling, even 1 little mistake will cost you the game (1 supply block, speed started a few seconds too late, baneling nest a few seconds delayed). you have to follow the bo perfect to win against your speedling opener. | ||
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ThisIsSparta_
Austria39 Posts
now i am sure 14gas 14 pool into defensive baneling is the hardcounter to your build. the game was close as you said, even though he did many horrible mistakes: his banelingnest was finished at 5:20, but he morphed his first banelings at 6:30, even though he morphed his banes so late and didnt position them defensive (instead he morphed them right at your base) you could not kill him, nor do any damage to his econ. you saw the baneling nest and throw down 2 spines, what left you with 9 drones to 13. he was in your mineral line with 6 banelings and ran right into your queen without doing any damage! he could have won the game there if he had microed his banes. then he wanted to finish you off, even though he knew you had 2 spines up, a queen and lings to defend and you just ran right into his base, when he moved out without scouting your lings ( they were waiting at his natural) and killed everything, coz he didnt even try to protect it. all he had to do was, sit back, expand, drone up and end the game with a timing roach push. sry but there is no way this build could possibly stand against a proper executed baneling play. btw he did a 14pool 13 gas build. i use a 14 gas 14 pool build, so speed up and baneling nest kick in sooner. | ||
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AimlessAmoeba
Canada704 Posts
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dave333
United States915 Posts
The thing about going banelings is that in order to have that baneling nest early enough, you have to commit to getting it very early, a point where if the other zerg does a good job, you won't know if they're going mass speedling. Overpool can go into roach very easily if that is what some people choose to do (I remember that overpool is the best build to go if you don't plan on expanding before 25 or so supply). It's a solid build and works well, and it's just something else to think about when you play ZvZ. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 02 2011 21:03 ThisIsSparta_ wrote: forgot that you already posted replays , my bad.i just want to see if any of the guys you played followed the correct bo and are microing well. when you open baneling, even 1 little mistake will cost you the game (1 supply block, speed started a few seconds too late, baneling nest a few seconds delayed). you have to follow the bo perfect to win against your speedling opener. Here's a replay where I feel I did execute the build decently, and probably would have lost if not for opponent disconnect. I think the build my opponent does is an extremely conservative and fairly economical way to open the game.  vs Michael vs Samuel ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png) By my own standards my ling rush was a little bit late, and my decision to harass early lowered my ling count quite a bit, but I think it was at least an average execution. In this game, my opponent opts for 13pool, 13gas, 18 bane nest (with first 50 gas), then 20 meta boost. While he didn't get speed for the fight, because of the earlier banelings, he didn't really need it. If I had scouted adequately, I would simply have droned up and we'd play a normal game, but because I didn't, I went for it anyway and tried to attack a timing window that simply wasn't there. Note that if you are going for this build and you scout an early bane nest like I should have in this game, then you simply wouldn't mass the lings and instead would macro hard and play defensively. You don't typically make the decision to make those last 12-14 lings until after you will have scouted the opponent's base. The early banes counter what this build WOULD do, but doesn't counter the build outright. You are very slightly behind, but it's by no means auto-lose since you can very easily just make drones instead of lings, and still secure an expansion. On March 03 2011 03:05 ThisIsSparta_ wrote: ok i just watched the replay you played against fenril. he opened baneling and you say it was one of the closest games. now i am sure 14gas 14 pool into defensive baneling is the hardcounter to your build. the game was close as you said, even though he did many horrible mistakes: his banelingnest was finished at 5:20, but he morphed his first banelings at 6:30, even though he morphed his banes so late and didnt position them defensive (instead he morphed them right at your base) you could not kill him, nor do any damage to his econ. you saw the baneling nest and throw down 2 spines, what left you with 9 drones to 13. he was in your mineral line with 6 banelings and ran right into your queen without doing any damage! he could have won the game there if he had microed his banes. then he wanted to finish you off, even though he knew you had 2 spines up, a queen and lings to defend and you just ran right into his base, when he moved out without scouting your lings ( they were waiting at his natural) and killed everything, coz he didnt even try to protect it. all he had to do was, sit back, expand, drone up and end the game with a timing roach push. sry but there is no way this build could possibly stand against a proper executed baneling play. btw he did a 14pool 13 gas build. i use a 14 gas 14 pool build, so speed up and baneling nest kick in sooner. 14gas/pool banelings pop about 5:00-5:05 by what I can tell. This, if perfectly executed, can and will stop this rush, but if any part of your opener is late, you're going to die. That said, if I scout and see you had a baneling nest drop around 3:30-3:40, I'm going to be far more likely to transition into a standard game. I do suppose that one of the reasons that my opponent bling nests tend to be later is that during the normal time you'd drop a bling nest, I'm in your base scouting. So perhaps the thinking is "I'll delay it a few seconds while I kick his lings out" and that buys just enough time to end the game on a push. In other words, if I'm running around freely in your base and you don't drop a bling nest by ~3:50, you're going to lose the game if you didn't drop double spines within 20 seconds. | ||
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ThisIsSparta_
Austria39 Posts
[QUOTE]On March 02 2011 21:03 ThisIsSparta_ wrote: [QUOTE]On March 02 2011 20:29 michaelhasanalias wrote: [QUOTE]On March 02 2011 20:24 ThisIsSparta_ wrote: Here's a replay where I feel I did execute the build decently, and probably would have lost if not for opponent disconnect. I think the build my opponent does is an extremely conservative and fairly economical way to open the game. vs [url=http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/4946/Michael_vs_Samuel]Michael vs Samuel[/url] [url=http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/4946][img]http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png[/img][/url]By my own standards my ling rush was a little bit late, and my decision to harass early lowered my ling count quite a bit, but I think it was at least an average execution. In this game, my opponent opts for 13pool, 13gas, 18 bane nest (with first 50 gas), then 20 meta boost. While he didn't get speed for the fight, because of the earlier banelings, he didn't really need it. If I had scouted adequately, I would simply have droned up and we'd play a normal game, but because I didn't, I went for it anyway and tried to attack a timing window that simply wasn't there. Note that if you are going for this build and you scout an early bane nest like I should have in this game, then you simply wouldn't mass the lings and instead would macro hard and play defensively. You don't typically make the decision to make those last 12-14 lings until after you will have scouted the opponent's base. The early banes counter what this build WOULD do, but doesn't counter the build outright. You are very slightly behind, but it's by no means auto-lose since you can very easily just make drones instead of lings, and still secure an expansion. [/QUOTE] 14gas/pool banelings pop about 5:00-5:05 by what I can tell. This, if perfectly executed, can and will stop this rush, but if any part of your opener is late, you're going to die. That said, if I scout and see you had a baneling nest drop around 3:30-3:40, I'm going to be far more likely to transition into a standard game. I do suppose that one of the reasons that my opponent bling nests tend to be later is that during the normal time you'd drop a bling nest, I'm in your base scouting. So perhaps the thinking is "I'll delay it a few seconds while I kick his lings out" and that buys just enough time to end the game on a push. In other words, if I'm running around freely in your base and you don't drop a bling nest by ~3:50, you're going to lose the game if you didn't drop double spines within 20 seconds.[/QUOTE] And what if your opponent sees your two spines and decides not to engage and just drone up like you? your opponent would have a 5 drone advantage and you have to spend 200 mins for spines, while he can use his map control to expand. (when you played fenril and scouted the baneling nest you immediately throw down a roach warren additional to your spines, so there is for you to gain map control before you get the speed up for your roaches). you cannot keep up with your opponents econ if he decides to outmacro you. you cannot move out with your roaches without speed up, you need to make a at least 10 roaches before you can expand, otherwise you would not be able to defend it, so you fall even more behind. No way to beat a two base zerg while your on 1 base. | ||
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ThisIsSparta_
Austria39 Posts
On March 03 2011 04:45 dave333 wrote: Just because 14 pool/14 gas baneling play counters this doesn't mean its bad, which seems to be the implication a lot of people are saying...or something. This build is just another element of the ZvZ rock paper scissors. The thing about going banelings is that in order to have that baneling nest early enough, you have to commit to getting it very early, a point where if the other zerg does a good job, you won't know if they're going mass speedling. Overpool can go into roach very easily if that is what some people choose to do (I remember that overpool is the best build to go if you don't plan on expanding before 25 or so supply). It's a solid build and works well, and it's just something else to think about when you play ZvZ. read my post again! i never said its a bad build. There is no way to defend a fe if your opponent opens with this build and even with a roach opening its extremely hard, or maybe even impossible. maybe you misunderstood me, but i think this build is fucking awesome! ( maybe i should have stated this before). but why not discuss about some counters? its a strategy forum so why not discuss about what to do against this build? btw there are maps ( scrap station, xel naga, metalopolis if close position) where i always open speedling/baneling no matter what i scout. with my first 2 lings i scout his base, if i see a roachwarren i cancel my nest and make a round of drones then throw down a roach warren myself. and if i scout no roach warren i know that he is going mass speedling. | ||
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