EPTAlso if the opponent is fast expanding, i think sending out your first 6 lings (while hiding the rest of the lings youre making could do some damage?
And only sending 6 lings wont alert your opponent too much that 20more are coming soonish![G] ZvZ: 26 Speedling Expand Aggression - Page 6
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Zacke
Sweden9 Posts
Also if the opponent is fast expanding, i think sending out your first 6 lings (while hiding the rest of the lings youre making could do some damage? And only sending 6 lings wont alert your opponent too much that 20more are coming soonish! | ||
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Exley
United States239 Posts
PS what is with your signature michaelhasanalias... seriously what is with that? | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On May 11 2011 05:56 pwadoc wrote: I'm not sure if I've ever faced this build exactly, but my standard zvz is a 10 overpool, queen on 15, extractor after queen that skips ling speed and uses the first 50 gas for a baneling nest. I expand with 6-8 slowlings and morph banes and have 4-6 banes and 4-8 lings with a hatch building at 4:40. I drop a roach warren and transition to roach/bling. I'm pretty sure this survives and comes out economically ahead against this build, though I'd be down for testing it. I've never faced anything like what you're talking about, but I, too am searching for a build that both reliably holds this and comes out ahead of most other builds. I still use this as my default opener unless I know my opponent knows/thinks that I'm going to do it (for example on SEA, where there aren't many players to begin with). I'd be happy to do a few games against you if you have an account on NA, KOR or SEA. You can add me via my sig and we can test it out. Most of the time when my opponent goes baneling, I kill him as these banes are morphing. I will definitely say that the key to stopping this with a late baneling nest is to morph them in different locations and buy as much time as possible with good drone micro (around spine/queen/etc). If what you're saying is accurate, and you have banes finished and hatched after dropping a ~20 nest (15 queen, 17 extractor, then 50 gas), I'd be pretty impressed, although I think my initial 2 lings may scout it in time and allow me to use that inject on drones instead. I'm not sure of the timings though... so let's play if you have some time. On May 11 2011 09:19 Zacke wrote: Yeah, this build is totally awesome, been using it ALOT! Altough i dunno how important your second inject is? It feels like it wont get you your 26 lings much faster? I usually move out my queen after the first inject to snipe his overlord (2 player maps). Works great =). Also if the opponent is fast expanding, i think sending out your first 6 lings (while hiding the rest of the lings youre making could do some damage? And only sending 6 lings wont alert your opponent too much that 20more are coming soonish!I personally don't feel that the 2nd inject is important at all. In order to maximize the ling count for your timing attack, you must use every possible larva on lings, and this means capping at 26, not making an overlord earlier than that. Further, the opportunity cost for that inject is that you can probably kill a forward overlord of your opponent's (and in rare cases, two overlords). This supply block will completely screw him if he was going roaches, and at least cap his ling count to slightly below yours otherwise. Then, you need creep for your expansion (or nothing if you all-in him). Once your first inject pops, you'll be at 24 or 25 supply, and the 25th and 26th set of lings will be made as your main batch are en route. It really depends on both the timing of the expansion and the contents of the opponent's base as to whether I'll engage and force a hatch cancel. Often times I'll be happy to let it complete, because those 300 minerals (and drone) won't be present during the engagement, and may even offer a split army (if he transferred), allowing me to destroy his main with less opposition. If you force a cancel 15-45 seconds before you attack, those 300 minerals will go into spines and possibly roaches, lings, and/or a second queen. Sometimes I go for it, but often I'll just lightly harass and make sure I have a good idea of where his money is being spent. Usually I prefer it being spent on that hatch, since a hatch can't defend itself. As for the not alerting him of your other lings, if he's good he'll have a 20-25 second heads up as to when you're coming. Even with an overlord snipe, there should be an overlord vision highway between his base and yours (minus your nat since your queen will snipe it). So he'll have a good idea that there are lings coming and be popping units as you engage. In most of my games, units are all ~5-10 seconds from spawning off his inject as I move in, and it basically cuts his standing army in half, since I can engage 100% to <100%. A FE further sections off his possible defense. On May 11 2011 12:59 Exley wrote: It's good to throw in early pool builds like this every now and then, maybe 5% of the time. PS what is with your signature michaelhasanalias... seriously what is with that? Personally the main reason I use this build as my standard is because it forces my opponent out of his element very early in the game. It's 100% safe against cheese (re: 6 pool, 7 pool spine all-in, etc etc) and has a very good chance of ending the game at 6 minutes via build order counter. It's very forgiving to my misclicks, and very unforgiving for my opponent's misclicks. It has very smooth transitions to mid-game via hatch, spine/baneling, 1-base roach, spine all-in, etc. All of these are reasons I love to use this build. Even if my opponent suspects speedling aggression, this build hits anywhere from 30-60 seconds faster than the standard speedling expand due to the 10 extractor, so I can (and often do) catch him just seconds before he is fully prepared. | Michael | has | an | alias .... I feel like that's pretty transparent, as far as aliases go. | ||
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ArhK
France287 Posts
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Exley
United States239 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On May 11 2011 23:25 ArhK wrote: Interesting build for sure. I wonder how does that fare on big map like Taldarim, or Typhon Peak though...how do you handle scouting, and the more important travel path ? Do you systematically go for expand behind your initial round of lings ? I don't think a competent player will lose to this on tal'darim or cross shak, but typhon is still close enough that it will work. On May 12 2011 05:08 Exley wrote: No your signature not your name. Am I missing something? I try really hard to post great content and give a lot of insightful information whenever I can, and he temp banned me a few months ago for replying to some thread where I didn't watch the replay before telling the guy why it couldn't possibly work. | ||
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Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
On May 12 2011 05:13 michaelhasanalias wrote: I don't think a competent player will lose to this on tal'darim or cross shak, but typhon is still close enough that it will work. I try really hard to post great content and give a lot of insightful information whenever I can, and he temp banned me a few months ago for replying to some thread where I didn't watch the replay before telling the guy why it couldn't possibly work. Michael always has good things to say, posts good replays and never is inconsiderate towards anyone. He also happens to know what he's talking about most of the time. This 26 speedling he uses is a strong opener but the only issue I see with it is it doesn't reliably come out ahead against the most common ZvZ opener, the typical 14 gas/14 pool unless you simply outplay your opponent. I do however like the way it matches up against hatch firsts, early pools and bascially anything else they try. On larger maps I still feel Hatch First should be the standard over early pool speedlings. Builds like this are always good because you take away the possibility of being caught with your pants down. There is no Build Order Loss when playing this kind of style. It is also not extremely easy to scout and understand if you hide your lings well enough. | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
lol the game with ichorninjga is pretty epic... he won the game although his hatch was taken out in the beginning awesome 1-base muta timing ironically, ichorninja lost to rock/papers/scissors (roach/muta pwns roach speedlings which pwns roach/hydra) | ||
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iiGreetings
Canada563 Posts
My point is that you can stop it with positioning, regardless it is a very strong build ( high diamond for those who are interested.) I opened 14 gas 14 pool | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On May 13 2011 23:34 iiGreetings wrote: I stopped this build with 14 slings 2 spines with queen. Close position meta and spine locations where next to pool and behind mineral line. It was tough because I strategically pit my pool close to hatch and gas to avoid surround on my queen. I slowly got some roaches near end of engagement and walled with roaches and moved spines so the could attack the lings hitting my roaches. He tried to expo but I got enough roaches to stomp it and kill him later after he went muta and I sniped all his shit. My point is that you can stop it with positioning, regardless it is a very strong build ( high diamond for those who are interested.) I opened 14 gas 14 pool I've recently started practicing against this, and I think if you just open 14gas/pool and don't make more drones, you'd stop it easily. The issue becomes, when you're playing a mirror match and your opponent just doesn't attack you, or sneaks a couple drones in... I've been using this opener for 5 months with ~95% outright win rate zvz, and I'm looking for something that will reliably crush it and still enable early aggression. I haven't cropped the replays I posted, I just haven't really lost with this build. Perhaps it's a product of my opponent skill level (~low/mid master). I've had a few ideas and been testing some ideas out but so far don't have anything to show for it. Naturally the bigger maps (as someone else mentioned) you just can't do this on and I also agree hatch first is the way to go. On like ICCup valhalla or crossfire for example, you can hold this even with hatch first simply by stopping drone production. I I think with great micro you can really do a number on this build. If you have sneaky building placement, a spine or queen to aggro walled in or something, drones clogging attack lanes, using lings to block ramp to buy time... If you opt for a 10OL and then 2 drones this can really have a nice transition to mid game (assuming you still hit the timing and do some damage, or at least force an equal and opposite ling force). | ||
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Fujitsi
Belgium65 Posts
What should be the priority? Drones > queen > lings ? Thx for the build anyways, when no spines are present It absolutely owns | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
The early speed is just phenomenal. This also flows nicely into a spanishwa style econ play, where you just turtle up with mass spines and queens and you drone really hard. What exactly is the weakness to this build? There must be one. Maybe at very high levels, hatch first can still defend it? | ||
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ErrorNA
United States86 Posts
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
On June 12 2011 18:28 ErrorNA wrote: Someone did this build to me on ladder today, i saw a super fast pool and gas and i threw down a bane nest as soon as i could with a 14gas/14pool opener and just got a later speed. I made some banes and was ahead. It was on close by air positions on shakuras. I think people should have to post replays whenever they say "someone used this build against me on ladder and I did X and beat it ez". It's possible he wasn't actually doing the build, or had very poor execution or something. I'm actually curious, so could you post the replay? | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
the speedling expand replay vs cartonbox in the OP is a hatch first build, which means it's mislabeled imo.. speedling opener is 14g, 14p, speed, drone to 20, decide to expand or mass lings - finishes speed research at around 5:10 i feel like you basically auto-lose at that point, you can't deal damage and you are behind in drones, you have equal map control and probably can't hold an expansion.. if both players macro are perfect you end up with a 10 second window to attack his slowlings, and you can't hit the enemy drones/queens or else you die to drone/ling pincer or get counter attacked. speedling opener is quite possibly the most common opener, and it transitions into either a speedling all-in, speedling expand or banelings so i ask this question: does this build simply not work on big maps or cross positions, or is there a way not to be hugely behind the most common zvz opener without some sort of sweet micro-intensive ambush on his army? you can arrive early enough to exploit the "i have speed and you dont" timing window on most maps, but ST cross position and Taldarim altar don't seem to jive with this build (meaning a 33% chance on ST that if you do the build, you're auto behind) | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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tirkhan
1 Post
A thing that was omitted above is that this build is quite easy to execute, and might push the adversary to do a mistake. Because the matchup is fragile, at my level this is really important : I have a build easy to perform, that punishes well mistakes, and is really good against fast expand. Also, after the initial push, adversaries tend to believe that you're going all-in so they often do not expand too fast, or defend too much with spines. That is why I also win games with this build by expanding into 2 base roaches. The only real concern is people that build spines. 1 spine is OK but 2 spines means you need to stop attacking and expand asap. | ||
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SundeR.
Australia112 Posts
Just another ZvZ cheese. I understand that it could possibly work because the current ZvZ metagame says not to drone scout, but still, I don't really see why this is a good build at all. Any kind of early pool can be defended by drones and speedlings. If this hits at the ~5 minute mark like you say, then it is perfectly reasonable that I have been into your base, realised that you went early pool and have too many lings and not enough drones. Put a spine crawler or two down and a baneling nest. The same response is required as early banelings. Extra queens and spine crawlers. | ||
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