|
Introduction (Updated 4/22/11)
This is a build I've been using to cheese NA, KOR and SEA ladders for quick-wins in ZvZ from 1.1-1.3 with high success. It is tremendously strong against every standard zerg opener except a PERFECTLY executed 14gas/pool speedling baneling (and I mean perfectly). You can scout/counter 10 pool baneling easily and you can also scout/counter (and be very slightly behind) 14gas/pool baneling.
You may also choose to go all-in or take a completely safe expansion (independent of what your opponent decides to do, even if it's this exact build).
Goal:
I wanted a quick-win build that beats most other speedling timings, speedling/baneling timings, 1-base roach timings, and ALL builds that seek to fast expand. While this build most certainly is NOT all-in due to it being a mirror matchup, it most definitely does depend on you dealing reasonable damage to your opponent. Your attack will secure your own expansion, but if you fail to deal any real damage (re: kill some workers+queen+ some/most of his army), you may be a sad panda.
The Build:
10 Extractor
10 Extractor trick drone
11 Spawning Pool (then 2 drones to gas)
10 Extractor trick drone
11 Overlord
11 Queen
13 Zergling (Same time as queen)
14 Zergling (depending on how precise your timing and drone micro)
14 Metabolic Boost (~2:55, PULL OFF GAS)
Inject/Spam zerglings.
Expand or All-In?
If you decide to expand, you should hotkey a drone, and rally it out ~200min, then with your next queen energy after 1st inject, drop 1-2 tumors (depending if you hunted OLs and lost time).
If you decide to all-in, send 4-5 drones (or however many you like, although I think more is less here since they will get in the way of ling dps if you send too many) and instead of expoing, drop spines as you attack.
-TIP: try to position the spines such that they can't be surrounded. Put them between gas/pool/hatch area, or in mineral cracks.
Tips:
- Queue your 2nd OL to his first OL so you can (hopefully) hunt it down with your Queen. Your lings will keep your queen safe.
- Since you are only making 11 drones, you need to MICRO them very well. This means not just herp-a-derp boxing them and clicking them to the middle patch, then going AFK for a poptart. Make sure you have all 4 closest mineral patches doubled up as soon as you can. When you only have 11 drones, this can literally shave 10-12 seconds off your timing attack. In a game that may only last 6 minutes, that's a big deal. Reference this thread if you are looking for an in-depth guide on worker micro: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211953
- Your first two zerglings should deny scouting if there is a drone. Next, at least one should charge up the ramp and perimeter the base. You want to gauge your opponent's pool and gas timing, and if he has opted for any tech (baneling nest or roach warren).
- Make sure you make a good "overlord vision highway" from your ramp to your opponent's.
- Immediately after your 2nd inject, send your Queen down your ramp to kill his closest overlord. As this is a 26 food timing push, your 3rd inject is not necessary, and allows you to creep tumor while you expand, or inject for a finishing move.
- Properly timed, this should beat most speedling/baneling and roach openers, and give you map control as long as the game lasts. Your speed will ALWAYS finish first (at least I can't think of a reasonable build that beats this meta boost timing) and you will ALWAYS have more lings.
- If you spot an expansion with your scouting lings, you've very likely won the game outright.
- Your rush should be HITTING his base right about 5 minutes.
- You have the option to expand or reinforce, or spine+queen and defend.
- When you attack, your goal is to overwhelm. You need every ling alive for the attack and try to hit AS SOON as your ling speed finishes. You have a small window when your ling speed will give you a tremendous engagement (re: concave) advantage on your opponent's slow zerglings (if he went speedling). This window is larger if your ling scouts later pool/gas timings or any similarly greedy opening (a lot of drones).
- It can help greatly to hotkey a drone for your expansion. It's very likely that when you are expanding, you will also need to inject, and you will be in the middle of microing the most important battle of the game. Hotkeying a drone and also a camera angle at your nat will be VERY beneficial in ensuring you don't forget your expansion (which I do in many of these games, although it doesn't end up mattering).
- If you feel like playing slightly more passive, you can feel free to add a 12th drone to this build with only a slightly delayed 13th pair of zerglings. You can also choose to add more drones at the cost of 2 zerglings each. However, any drones you create after 3:30 will not repay themselves before you attack.
Replays (All-In):
vs. Master
 vs Michael vs Kraqit ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png) vs speedling baneling
vs. Diamond
vs Michael vs Kimchi vs speedling roach expand
vs MFCHAS vs Michael vs speedling roach
vs Michael vs smokedit vs double hatch
vs Michael vs cartonbox vs speedling expand (std)
vs jaydubz vs Michael
vs Michael vs Metal
Replays (Expand):
vs. Grandmaster
vs iCHORNinja vs Michael against 14gas/pool standard (long game)
vs TAEdgE vs Michael against 15h roach, late lings, loss
vs. Master
vs SoYLauroS vs Michael vs 1base roach, lots of BM
vs [deleted by opponent request] against roach expand
vs Michael vs ProAnnn against 14g/p 1-base roach
vs. Diamond
vs Michael vs Angel against 10pool speedling (~close game)
vs Michael vs 콩라인득도 against 14h cross-slag
vs Michael vs HyperGeist against fast baneling aggression (close game)
vs Michael vs Samuel against 13pool/13gas/18bling/20meta (likely loss, opponent disconnect)
vs Michael vs Quasit against 14gas/pool speedling roach
vs Michael vs DangsteR against 14gas/14pool/20bling
vs Michael vs Samuel against 6 pool drone all-in
vs Michael vs ZergSPR against 12gas/pool speedling baneling
vs Michael vs Daren against 13pool/12gas speedling roach
vs. Platinum
vs Michael vs fenril against 14pool/gas speedling baneling aggression (closest game)
vs Michael vs desmoulins against 11 pool/13gas speedling baneling
vs Michael vs Terror against 12 overpool/14gas fast lair/roach (close game)
Summation:
Again, I feel this is a pretty strong build against your run-of-the-mill zerg opponent who does pretty standard stuff. This build is nothing magical, but the slightly earlier meta boost timing due to 10 extractor allows you to almost perfectly hit a number of timing windows against most standard zvz openers.
Please offer any criticisms, analysis, and/or replays of your own. Thanks for reading!
|
|
|
On February 11 2011 23:39 HaNdFisH wrote:
Did you seriously just post a practice game of me trying to learn zvz (by far my worst mu) on TL.
You didn't seriously do that would you...
took it off, no worries mate!
|
On February 11 2011 23:39 HaNdFisH wrote:
Did you seriously just post a practice game of me trying to learn zvz (by far my worst mu) on TL.
You didn't seriously do that would you...
Give him a break, nobody cares who you are and if you're losing to a guy in diamond you don't need to protect your build orders or replays.
|
On February 11 2011 23:43 MoreFaSho wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 23:39 HaNdFisH wrote:
Did you seriously just post a practice game of me trying to learn zvz (by far my worst mu) on TL.
You didn't seriously do that would you... Give him a break, nobody cares who you are and if you're losing to a guy in diamond you don't need to protect your build orders or replays.
I think he just meant that the game isn't a very high level one for he was trying things.
And btw, that build is very close to the Z build in the unbeatable PZ strat.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170655
Edit: In my book, a build that HAS to deal significant damage to be viable is all-in. This 11 drone build IS all-in.
|
More like I didn't want the practice replays posted as to avoid seeing my terrible zvz. I care, doesn't matter if anyone else does or not.
Posting a practice game 10 minutes after playing it without asking I would consider not the best etiquette.
It does seem like a fairly potent build however.
|
On February 11 2011 23:53 AlgoFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 23:43 MoreFaSho wrote:On February 11 2011 23:39 HaNdFisH wrote:
Did you seriously just post a practice game of me trying to learn zvz (by far my worst mu) on TL.
You didn't seriously do that would you... Give him a break, nobody cares who you are and if you're losing to a guy in diamond you don't need to protect your build orders or replays. I think he just meant that the game isn't a very high level one for he was trying things. And btw, that build is very close to the Z build in the unbeatable PZ strat. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170655
Yeah, but the main difference is your 9 pool with early gas is a giveaway of some serious shenanigans, while this build sets you up for a nice expansion. Even though mine gets only one more drone, it has longer drone mining time earlier on, and so it hits at the same time.
In 2's, you need your first lings as fast as humanly possible to protect against double cheeses. In this one, you get the same push, but you're very slightly greedy at first to ensure that you can afford an expansion (so that it's not all-in).
If you were to do that build in 1's, the zerg would see it and just turtle with spines while he drones up. It's scouted before you can have lings to kick his drone out, and the extra early lings don't serve any function whatsoever since his queen + 2-4 lings will defend easily.
|
well ill start with comments no the post :D
since you cant stop scouting it your enemy will most probably know that you will do some early aggression.
and since this builds biggest strength is that your enemy is supprised by your high zergling count and the fact that he cant react in time, since this is a realy strong timing push, you will fall behind economically against a suspiccious opponent
catching up economically is hard, since a zergs econommy isnt realy based on the amount of hatches, but on the amount of drones
|
On February 11 2011 23:59 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Yeah, but the main difference is your 9 pool with early gas is a giveaway of some serious shenanigans, while this build sets you up for a nice expansion. Even though mine gets only one more drone, it has longer drone mining time earlier on, and so it hits at the same time.
In 2's, you need your first lings as fast as humanly possible to protect against double cheeses. In this one, you get the same push, but you're very slightly greedy at first to ensure that you can afford an expansion (so that it's not all-in).
If you were to do that build in 1's, the zerg would see it and just turtle with spines while he drones up. It's scouted before you can have lings to kick his drone out, and the extra early lings don't serve any function whatsoever since his queen + 2-4 lings will defend easily.
I don't agree on two points:
- The pool in both builds is at almost the same time, your pool is only a few seconds away and in both builds there is an extractor before overlord. I seriously doubt the opponent would be able to tell builds apart. If you think that the 2v2 buils in 1v1 would meet a turtling Zerg, I don't see why your build wouldn't meet it as well.
- Both builds have 11 drones too.
And that is All-in because if you don't attack with your lings you'll be behind. The very definition of all-in is: "if you don't do damage, you're behind" = all-in.
|
On February 12 2011 00:29 AlgoFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 23:59 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Yeah, but the main difference is your 9 pool with early gas is a giveaway of some serious shenanigans, while this build sets you up for a nice expansion. Even though mine gets only one more drone, it has longer drone mining time earlier on, and so it hits at the same time.
In 2's, you need your first lings as fast as humanly possible to protect against double cheeses. In this one, you get the same push, but you're very slightly greedy at first to ensure that you can afford an expansion (so that it's not all-in).
If you were to do that build in 1's, the zerg would see it and just turtle with spines while he drones up. It's scouted before you can have lings to kick his drone out, and the extra early lings don't serve any function whatsoever since his queen + 2-4 lings will defend easily. I don't agree on two points: - The pool in both builds is at almost the same time, your pool is only a few seconds away and in both builds there is an extractor before overlord. I seriously doubt the opponent would be able to tell builds apart. If you think that the 2v2 buils in 1v1 would meet a turtling Zerg, I don't see why your build wouldn't meet it as well. - Both builds have 11 drones too. And that is All-in because if you don't attack with your lings you'll be behind. The very definition of all-in is: "if you don't do damage, you're behind" = all-in.
No numbnuts, if you pull all your drones and your lings and attack, then its an allin, cus there is no NEXT STEP. His NEXT STEP is expanding after his attack. This means his build has a followup even if it has to deal significant damage.
|
On February 12 2011 00:29 AlgoFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 23:59 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Yeah, but the main difference is your 9 pool with early gas is a giveaway of some serious shenanigans, while this build sets you up for a nice expansion. Even though mine gets only one more drone, it has longer drone mining time earlier on, and so it hits at the same time.
In 2's, you need your first lings as fast as humanly possible to protect against double cheeses. In this one, you get the same push, but you're very slightly greedy at first to ensure that you can afford an expansion (so that it's not all-in).
If you were to do that build in 1's, the zerg would see it and just turtle with spines while he drones up. It's scouted before you can have lings to kick his drone out, and the extra early lings don't serve any function whatsoever since his queen + 2-4 lings will defend easily. I don't agree on two points: - The pool in both builds is at almost the same time, your pool is only a few seconds away and in both builds there is an extractor before overlord. I seriously doubt the opponent would be able to tell builds apart. If you think that the 2v2 buils in 1v1 would meet a turtling Zerg, I don't see why your build wouldn't meet it as well. - Both builds have 11 drones too. And that is All-in because if you don't attack with your lings you'll be behind. The very definition of all-in is: "if you don't do damage, you're behind" = all-in.
Hmm...
Well, it's my understanding that an 11 pool is different than a 9 pool, and that's actually a pretty big difference when you scout one versus the other.
From scouting the 9pool, your opponent has a very good idea a full 2 minutes earlier that you're going for an early rush aggression.
The definition of "all-in" as I understand it is "if this attack fails you cannot recover." I don't really know any all-ins that opt for an expansion, but I will agree that the point of this build is to overwhelm your opponent with an early attack.
By your definition of "all-in", it might seem that any build with a timing push that fails is all-in.
|
this build will be strong because zvz has shifted to economic play on many maps.
How does the zergling speed timing fare against a 14 gas 14 pool and how much of a ling advantage do you have?
thanks for sharing
|
On February 12 2011 00:16 OoOo wrote:
well ill start with comments no the post :D
since you cant stop scouting it your enemy will most probably know that you will do some early aggression.
and since this builds biggest strength is that your enemy is supprised by your high zergling count and the fact that he cant react in time, since this is a realy strong timing push, you will fall behind economically against a suspiccious opponent
catching up economically is hard, since a zergs econommy isnt realy based on the amount of hatches, but on the amount of drones
I don't think that the build's strength is in catching the opponent off guard. I believe its strength is in hitting a very small timing window where almost every standard opener is weaker.
If you watch in the replays, almost all of them involve the standard reactions... a spine, a baneling nest asap if he was planning speedling expand, and hope for the fastest roaches of his life if he went 1-base roach.
If I scout with my lings and see he went straight for banelings with no speed, I'll just spine myself and drone instead of making those last bit of lings, and then BS him as he pushes out with his army. If he's too slow with banelings, I can just attack while morphing.
The issue with "spotting" is WHEN he can spot the massing. With good overlord spotting, it's likely he can identify my lings moving out and massing at around 3 minutes. This gives him roughly 85 seconds to react, which is, coincidently, the time it takes to drop a baneling nest and morph banelings.
If he doesn't respond promptly and correctly, he has almost certainly lost the game. And because I have more lings from an earlier pool, I have map control, so he doesn't know how many lings I have except by counting them as they slowly stream out.
On February 12 2011 00:43 navy wrote:
this build will be strong because zvz has shifted to economic play on many maps.
How does the zergling speed timing fare against a 14 gas 14 pool and how much of a ling advantage do you have?
thanks for sharing
I haven't played vs 14gas 14 pool yet, but my guess would be:
at least 6 ling advantage (more if he builds more drones), and ling speed advantage at the time of attack.
Larva for a 3rd injection won't pop until I'm in the base, and I believe anything but a hard transition from 14g/p to banelings fails due to inadequate time.
None of this is substantiated by a replay, just guesswork on my part.
edit: actually in the replay vs. Quasit, he went 14gas/14pool
- His pool finishes 31 seconds after mine.
- His ling speed finishes 28 seconds after mine.
- He made 7 more drones than I did (warren, spine, + 5 mining)
- On engagement, it was 23 ling vs 8 ling, 1 queen, and 1 spine crawler. When the attack finished, he had 7 drones, no queen and 47hp on his spine crawler, losing 450 resources more than me (28% of his resources vs. 20% for me)
Because I hit a little bit late, I think he could have held it off if he had just pulled his lings and workers back while the rest of his lings popped. He also had some very poor drone micro (or lack thereof).
|
I think people has been using a lot the term of all-in to any non-macro-oriented strategy.
An all-in is a black/white strategy, with no middle option. Is a movement that makes you win or lose, no more. This build even beign ver early aggressive doesn't have to be an all-in because you can recover from it.
The idea of "if you don't do damage, you're behind" is wrong! Come on! this is a standard in game, not in a particular strategy. You have to do damage to be ahead. I think the term all-in has been used in a lot of strategies.
A strategy that can makes you win or put you behind economically is just that, a strategy, not an allin.
Sorry for my english.
|
On February 12 2011 00:29 AlgoFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 23:59 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Yeah, but the main difference is your 9 pool with early gas is a giveaway of some serious shenanigans, while this build sets you up for a nice expansion. Even though mine gets only one more drone, it has longer drone mining time earlier on, and so it hits at the same time.
In 2's, you need your first lings as fast as humanly possible to protect against double cheeses. In this one, you get the same push, but you're very slightly greedy at first to ensure that you can afford an expansion (so that it's not all-in).
If you were to do that build in 1's, the zerg would see it and just turtle with spines while he drones up. It's scouted before you can have lings to kick his drone out, and the extra early lings don't serve any function whatsoever since his queen + 2-4 lings will defend easily. I don't agree on two points: - The pool in both builds is at almost the same time, your pool is only a few seconds away and in both builds there is an extractor before overlord. I seriously doubt the opponent would be able to tell builds apart. If you think that the 2v2 buils in 1v1 would meet a turtling Zerg, I don't see why your build wouldn't meet it as well. - Both builds have 11 drones too.
And that is All-in because if you don't attack with your lings you'll be behind. The very definition of all-in is: "if you don't do damage, you're behind" = all-in.
No, that is a definition of cheese. All-in means win NOW or you're f'ed. Pulling drones or 6 pooling and going for it is an all-in, because losing your units will result in a situation where you'll never come back. Builds like this are cheese. Builds that can win instantly or lose horribly, but you must do damage at least to stay in the game. It's not all-in even if you don't do damage, you'll just be pretty behind. All-in means you have little to no chance of surviving.
|
Ok I guess I don't have a good understanding of what is all-in. Thanks for your help Flacon_NL. I guess I have never seen any all-in build then (but the 12 drone rush maybe).
And michael, to clarify, the pool may be a 9 pool or an 11 pool but it's a 9 after 10 extractor and 11 after 10 extractor. The difference is one drone. Look at the timings, it is almost the same.
To tell builds apart, one would have to count the amount of drone (which would be the same 50 seconds later anyway).
Edit: Thanks also Sm3agol, I understand how wrong I got.
|
I do the 1 base lair tech wall in with roach/overseer/muta, and I find similar mass ling strategies like this to do only miminal damage. On most maps by minute 5 I have an almost complete wall off of my main and roaches/queen to plug the gaps with hold. By the time the lings manage to kill a roach or the queen most of them are dead and then I attack with drones/remaining units for easy clean up, while being miles ahead in tech. It holds well because the units that plug the gaps are only usually able to be attacked by 2 lings at a time. So Roach splash helps and queen is just beastly and it always seems they want to target the queen..
|
Seems like in order for you to win with this build you have to get lucky and have your opponent go fast expand or just over drone. It's definately a viable cheese, but cheese at that. If they scout you and do any safe builds such as 14 gas 14 pool or 14 pool 15 gas roach they will have a huge economic lead, which in zvz is auto-loss.
|
It is so stupid that every single build order topic gets cluttered up with people debating the semantics of "all in" and "cheese". WHO CARES? It's a BUILD, can we PLEASE just leave it at that?
|
I don't understand. Isn't this build just overpool + spam speedlings? What's new about this?
There's no "next step" to the build. So it's either all-in (and yes I would describe this as all-in personally), or it's the start of a build.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
