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Intro
Evening folks. After lurking and reading (and I have to admit: trolling at balance threads) at TL.net for a while, I thought it's time to give back to the community, especially after utilizing the strategies of Griffith, Antisocialmunkey and iEchoic. I have hesitated for a while, because it's my first (and so far only) unique opening I have developed. But hey.. I guess if now it becomes a nice opener that is commonly used in TvT, it's something to be proud of.
I'm by no means a really high level player, hanging around 2.5k Masters (with ~200 bonus pool), but the build has served me well in against an EPS (UK) player - before he outmacroed me. So if you want to poke holes, poke away. This ain't a bible.
I also want to credit iEchoic for the formatting that I shamelessly copied - because it's good.
Oh.. and feedback is greatly appreciated.
Overview
+ Show Spoiler +This opener focusses was inspired by day[9] and his mantra of attacking and expanding. We sacrifice tech time for economy and aggresion. This build uses an early stim timing to poke at the opponent and read his build. It holds up well against all common Terran openers and usually sets me up in an economic lead, even if the poke is defended.
Usually this build results in an ecomomic lead, that I try to hang on to. I make 3-5 tanks just to cover my territory and invest the rest of the gas in air superiority for drop play and to even out the lower number of tanks. As soon as I am on three bases, I move to BC for the finishing blow.
Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
10 supply
12 rax#1
13 ref
From here on, I will just give the order of building things. This is because you want to build stuff as soon as you can.
@rax#1 completes1 1 marine and start OC
start 2nd rax
@rax#1 marine complete: start tech lab, then make 1 marine and 3 marauders
@OC complete: Drop mule, do NOT make SCV right away
start supply depot before SCV #16
@100 gas: stim
@rax#2 complete: continous marine production
Produce from both barracks and the OC constantly, while building two more supply depots. There may be a few seconds, where you are capped by minerals or supply. In his case prioritize units over SCVs.
Around 5:40 mins game time, you should be in the following state:
3 marauders
6 marines (6th just about to pop out usually)
Stim 80% done
Your OC will approach 50 energy for the 3rd time. The first 2 energy chunks you used as MULEs, the 3rd will be a scan.
Move with your force towards the opponent.
You notice you have massed up 400 minerals so drop a CC. From now on SCV production regains it's usual priority. Both barracks start producing marines and you make the following buildings in this order:
Factory
Supply depot
engi bay
2nd gas
The Stimpush
+ Show Spoiler +You move out as soon as you have 4 marauders and 5 marines. Ideally you will approach the opponents ramp as your stim research completes. Note that this lines up nicely with your Orbital gaining 50 energy. Do a scan and assess, if you want to assault:
1) We see no bunker and no sieged tank:
Attack. Stim will win you the encounter. You trade infantry and will force SCVs off the mineral line. Note that you will beat most siege tech timings if you crisply executed the build. You can pick off any unsieged tank.
2)You see a bunker or a sieged tank:
This depends on the amount of units. Just a bunker and up to 2 marines you can overpower as marauders with stim rip through the bunker. A bunker and an unsieged tank is doable, too and a worthy trade. A bunker with 3+ SCVs or a sieged tank is too much.
3) Two bunker+
Don't attack
4) More than 12 marines
Retreat and start bunkers at your natural.
Scouting - what do I look for?
+ Show Spoiler +I recommend sending your 13th SCV on 2 player maps or your depot SCV on 4 player maps. Ideally you want to arrive at his base after his rax have finished and before the marine pops out. Make sure he has gas and is mining from his refinery and check for a second barracks retreat as the marine pops. If there is no gas, you are either facing a marine all in or a fast expand. By keeping your SCV around and looking for another rax beyond the first you can hopefully see what's coming at you. For fast expand, you should push out earlier and deny his expand. You have 2 rax and he has one, so you should be able to prevent bunkers from going down on the natural. If you see more than 1 rax and no gas, it's safe to build a bunker at home.
Reacting to Terran Openings
+ Show Spoiler +Assuming you have scouted a standard 13 gas 15 OC from your opponent, you will gain knowledge about his opening choice when you push. Usually the scan and the units at the ramp tell you what you will face in the next minutes. All options imply, that your opponent had his ramp defended and you did not attack his base:
1) Marine/Tank/Viking
Transfer your factory to the barracks techlab and start your own siege tech and tank production. Use your stim force to delay him on the way to his contain. Float your 2nd OC to your natural, get 2 gas up and use your gas advantage to catch up and surpass him in tech. Once you have your tanks in place at your natural and vikings in the air, you should be golden, because you expanded faster than he did and have eco advantage.
2) Cloaked banshee opening.
The banshee will pop shortly after you can push. Oftentimes you will break his front, lose your marines and the banshee will mop up the marauders, while you trade them for SCVs (or ideally target the port techlab to cancel cloak). Either way, that's why you have started the engi bay just before you tried for the push. Throw up 3 turrets for vision and use the marines with stim you have produced during your attack timing to fend off the banshee. Use your 2nd OC for extra SCV production and scans. Make a reactor on you factory and a starport, double pump viking and then float your OC to your natural. With proper sim city, 3 turrets and 4-6 marines will completely negate the 2 banshees usually employed. You are now ahead in economy (and probably also in army size). Second round of starport production is 2 medivacs and go counterdrop
3) Hellion drop (with or without blue flame)
Oftentimes you will catch that drop just as the 3rd hellion pops and the medivac wants to leave. If you can't break the fronts due to bunkers, get concussive shells at home and swap the techlab rax from marine production to marauder production. With stim and shells you should be able to fend off the drop without much problems. Proceed with expansion.
4) Rax expand
This can be tricky depending on the accessability of the natural. Use the above guidelines to see if you can break his defense (which is often the case). Use your scan to determine where on the tech path he is. If you are ahead (which is likely), reactor starport with dual medivac will give you 2 full medivacs with marine marauder and stim to drop and wreack havoc.
5) Mass bio play
If you see a great amount of bio at the top of the ramp, it's wise to retreat. Expand, fortify with bunkers and get siege mode ASAP. With 2 bunkers and repair plus stim you can hold all pushes against your expand that can come before siege mode.
Tips and Tricks
+ Show Spoiler +- Try to hide your second barracks from the opponents scout. This will increase the chance that you can break his ramp and cause major damage
- Build your base in a rather tight cluster, so that three turrets will cover everything. Build your factory directly above or below your techlab rax for a quick emergency swap in case of an early tank push by your opponent.
- If you can't push in, try to maximize the time you have the base advantage by using your stim force to make him worried about moving out. Ideally he has to siege hop out of his base netting you an extra minute to widen your economic lead.
- You can use this build as a base for an all-in. Depending on how all-in-ish you want to be, you can use the amassing minerals for proxy rax (remove 1 SCV from gas after you started stim) and pull as much SCVs as you deem neccessary.
FAQ
+ Show Spoiler +Will be filled with your questions.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
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Isn't this just a 2-rax expo with a stim timing instead of conc shells? This is pretty common TvP, but the transition is into mass bio, not fact. Please post a replay of it in action, because I don't think you can expo and tech at the same time off of only 2 rax, and still be safe.
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On February 10 2011 07:40 xixecal wrote:
Isn't this just a 2-rax expo with a stim timing instead of conc shells? This is pretty common TvP, but the transition is into mass bio, not fact. Please post a replay of it in action, because I don't think you can expo and tech at the same time off of only 2 rax, and still be safe.
Yes, I think so. It's a pretty common build.
For TvP, it's better to get concussive shells than stim IMO. This lets you kite zealots forever, and you can push out with 2 marauders and 3 marines and reach their base right as concussive finishes. It's much faster than getting stim and the sentry usually doesn't have enough energy for multiple FF on the ramp.
Teching immediately after expanding, with only two barracks (one with no addon), is quite dangerous. From my experience it's typically better to add one or two more barracks with addons before getting fact so you can continue to pressure, and actually have units if the opponent decides to attack.
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this is scoutable and will put you behind when opponent goes 1 rax 1 fact(which is common by default).
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On February 10 2011 07:52 danielsan wrote:
this is scoutable and will put you behind when opponent goes 1 rax 1 fact(which is common by default).
Actually I use this opener is next to all of my TvT and the beauty is that even if it's scouted you often end up ahead in the economy game.
For the replays:
I typed it up before going to sleep. I will supply replays of the build this evening. For now I just have fished one out against a siege tank marine player.
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Ive done this but still think you can get away with 1rax fe in TvT dont worry about a small timing push to grab your expo just get it.
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Interesting. Surprisingly enough, if done well I think the only build that would prevent you from getting your expo is iEchoic's hellion type play. That small bio force will be erased by 3 bf hellions. Have you tested this build against a 5 marine 1 hellion poke? I might be wrong but it seems at the time that hits he will reduce your army numbers, delaying your push and therefore your expo.
Also, although a lot less common(I love to do it in Bo5 if I am playing random), QXCs ghost opening would never let you get your extremely small bio group up as he snipes marines and bounces.
I really do like the engineering bay timing, though. Gives you room to throw up turrets if you need them if you see the starport with techlab. Post more replays so we can get a better feel of the timings!
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On February 10 2011 22:54 Venomsflame wrote:
Interesting. Surprisingly enough, if done well I think the only build that would prevent you from getting your expo is iEchoic's hellion type play. That small bio force will be erased by 3 bf hellions. Have you tested this build against a 5 marine 1 hellion poke? I might be wrong but it seems at the time that hits he will reduce your army numbers, delaying your push and therefore your expo.
Also, although a lot less common(I love to do it in Bo5 if I am playing random), QXCs ghost opening would never let you get your extremely small bio group up as he snipes marines and bounces.
I really do like the engineering bay timing, though. Gives you room to throw up turrets if you need them if you see the starport with techlab. Post more replays so we can get a better feel of the timings!
I haven't faced a well executed iEchoic build. Only a not that well executed one and I can post the replay of that when I get home from work. But go to day[9] and watch iEchoic demonstrate his build in the latest daily. Notice, that he has only 2 marines and 1 hellion at the 6 minute mark where your push is happening. Two more will pop out, blue flame tech is still 40 seconds of and you have 4 marauder with stim. The ghost opening will give you trouble, but you can use your marauder to snipe the ghost and have a favorable exchange already plus you are probably even with the expand and ahead in tech.
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Lol at the instant theorycrafting ...
Seems like a very well written and detailed guide, I look forward to giving this build a go as for some reason I can't find a comfortable TvT opening -_-
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a) The replays I've seen of iEchoic's build show very little military until Hellions start popping; this opening is probably good against it.
b) whenever my opponents open with two Barracks in TvT, it is almost trivial to throw down a Bunker and deny their initial push, at which point I'm typically way ahead of them in tech. This build also cuts SCVs; how do you transition if you scout a Bunker?
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On February 10 2011 23:58 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 22:54 Venomsflame wrote:
Interesting. Surprisingly enough, if done well I think the only build that would prevent you from getting your expo is iEchoic's hellion type play. That small bio force will be erased by 3 bf hellions. Have you tested this build against a 5 marine 1 hellion poke? I might be wrong but it seems at the time that hits he will reduce your army numbers, delaying your push and therefore your expo.
Also, although a lot less common(I love to do it in Bo5 if I am playing random), QXCs ghost opening would never let you get your extremely small bio group up as he snipes marines and bounces.
I really do like the engineering bay timing, though. Gives you room to throw up turrets if you need them if you see the starport with techlab. Post more replays so we can get a better feel of the timings! I haven't faced a well executed iEchoic build. Only a not that well executed one and I can post the replay of that when I get home from work. But go to day[9] and watch iEchoic demonstrate his build in the latest daily. Notice, that he has only 2 marines and 1 hellion at the 6 minute mark where your push is happening. Two more will pop out, blue flame tech is still 40 seconds of and you have 4 marauder with stim. The ghost opening will give you trouble, but you can use your marauder to snipe the ghost and have a favorable exchange already plus you are probably even with the expand and ahead in tech.
Just went to check, and you're right. The timings line up in your favor. This build obviously won't often outright kill your opponent, but that definitely will deal enough damage to get your expo up. The ensuing hellion drop after your push is still going to hurt. How would you react knowing a drop could come after your force is cleaned up?
Not trying to nitpick. I think this is a very cool way to grab an advantage against your opponent early on. Can't wait to go home and test it!
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First off, nicely thought build. I actually used to do a similar build in my TvT matches, but it wouldn't hit as fast or as strong as what you're describing due to my lack of skill and planning. One thing that I found was helpful in some situations was to build a proxy rax and lift it for vision of the ramp, which can make a nice difference so you don't run up the chokepoint. You can also use it for quick reinforcements so you can use the buildings in your main to guard against drops instead of reinforcing your push/contain.
Granted, I wouldn't just thrown down a proxy everytime, but it has its uses imo.
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On February 10 2011 06:50 Thrombozyt wrote:
Scouting - what do I look for?
I recommend sending your 13th SCV on 2 player maps or your depot SCV on 4 player maps. Ideally you want to arrive at his base after his rax have finished and before the marine pops out. Make sure he has gas and is mining from his refinery(else abort the build and fend off the marine all in) and check for a second barracks retreat as the marine pops.
A lot of terrans do no gas 1rax fast expands though. No gas doesnt automatically mean a marine all-in
i think an FE would be more likely if you scout that tbh. who even marine all-ins in tvt
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I do a blueflame hellion open, and have beaten pure 3 rax, 1 rax FE all marine, 2 rax stim pushes. Hardest thing for blue flame is a blue flame but sadly if I scout poorly, or don't poke the ramp/control towers -- this kind of play does work to, if nothing else, trade and force an SCV pull.
I almost enjoy bio play, if I see it. I can scoot hellions all over the map, and as long as I don't make a defense blunder, tank/marine in bunker with repair is enough to at least TRADE or force a retreat ya know?
Stim pushes do work, don't get me wrong. It's just got a sliding scale of success as the game goes on. And although if you don't scout the second rax, you're stuck having to rely on a scan to see no second gas and assume an FE or infantry play. Which, unfortunately, have completely different recourses.
I almost want to chime in a what if.. What if you pull 3-5 scvs with your push? It's so early, that you can try to offensively bunker, and force MASS scv pulling. I think vs a fast banshee build that would be almost dirty as the marines will have no chance defending that. Send scvs up first to soak up fire and then FF crap down.
Looks very nicely timed out at least. Got anymore reps of it?
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On February 11 2011 06:38 b0urne420 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 06:50 Thrombozyt wrote:
Scouting - what do I look for?
I recommend sending your 13th SCV on 2 player maps or your depot SCV on 4 player maps. Ideally you want to arrive at his base after his rax have finished and before the marine pops out. Make sure he has gas and is mining from his refinery(else abort the build and fend off the marine all in) and check for a second barracks retreat as the marine pops.
A lot of terrans do no gas 1rax fast expands though. No gas doesnt automatically mean a marine all-in i think an FE would be more likely if you scout that tbh. who even marine all-ins in tvt
Well.. I wrote that under the impression of a series of games I had last weekend where everyone and their mother pulled an SCV-marine-allin on me, if they would go for inbase proxy rax. But your are right, the 1 rax expand is something that you should scout for. If you catch it, you also should be able to delay it significantly, as you are 2 rax vs 1 rax and have higher map presence.
I will change that paragraph soon. Thx for the catch.
I have also added another replay and went through me replay section. Most of the TvT I have saved are from older patches. If there is immediate demand, I will post those. Else I will ladder this weekend.
@ellcee:
In rare cases I proxy the rax, too. Usually when he has a scout in my base that doesn't retreat in fear of my soon to come first marine. See the first replay. The down side is that you are in trouble in case he has the ramp bunkered up and is coming at you with that banshee or a hellion drop. You will have half the troops in your base.
Also scouting with the rax will give him more time. Imagine he has only a bunker at the front. With a scan you see it and destroy the bunker before his SCVs can repair. If you float your rax over, there are 5-10 secs between he can see your rax and you can make a complete assessment of the defense at the ramp. In that time he has his SCVs in place. Therefore I use the scan.
@Venomsflame:
Hellion drops can be fended off by researching concussive shell and making marauder from the tech lab rax. So when he drops you, you have 1-2 marauder and 3-5 marines with stim and slow. That greatly limit the damage of such a drop, especially if you know it's coming, so the stim marines can chase down the medivac and the marauders can pick off the dropped hellions.
@audeamus:
As lined out in the "response to opponents opening" section, you mainly try to use your economic advantage to catch up in tech. You use your stim force to delay tank pushes until you have your tanks in position, which in turn then hold until your 4 gas has surpassed his 2 gas tech production. Or you fend off banshees or blue flame drops (the air tech options) with your home force until your economic advantage has given you the resources to surpass him in tech units.
Basically the tech advantage has two components:
1) You initially need time to deploy a tech (get the structures up, get the research etc.)
2) You need time to mine gas and translate that gas into tech unit. This is economy dependent.
My opponent completes part 1 ahead of me. I opt for an economic advantage and use my forces to delay him from utilizing his advantage in high tech units (air and tanks usually) until my stronger eco with its 4 gysers brings me ahead in the second part of the tech game.
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On February 11 2011 06:58 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I do a blueflame hellion open, and have beaten pure 3 rax, 1 rax FE all marine, 2 rax stim pushes. Hardest thing for blue flame is a blue flame but sadly if I scout poorly, or don't poke the ramp/control towers -- this kind of play does work to, if nothing else, trade and force an SCV pull.
I almost enjoy bio play, if I see it. I can scoot hellions all over the map, and as long as I don't make a defense blunder, tank/marine in bunker with repair is enough to at least TRADE or force a retreat ya know?
Stim pushes do work, don't get me wrong. It's just got a sliding scale of success as the game goes on. And although if you don't scout the second rax, you're stuck having to rely on a scan to see no second gas and assume an FE or infantry play. Which, unfortunately, have completely different recourses.
I almost want to chime in a what if.. What if you pull 3-5 scvs with your push? It's so early, that you can try to offensively bunker, and force MASS scv pulling. I think vs a fast banshee build that would be almost dirty as the marines will have no chance defending that. Send scvs up first to soak up fire and then FF crap down.
Looks very nicely timed out at least. Got anymore reps of it?
As I have said in the tips&tricks section, you can pull SCVs for a more all-in-ish version. This is my opening for a macro oriented strategy.
For the blue flame hellion thing:
Yes, you might run around my stim force or drop me. This has happened a few times. But it comes down to my forces clearing your base and your hellions clearing mine. In a base trade scenario I usually come out ahead. Even if we both lose a ton of SCVs, I bounce back faster due to 2 OCs while you are stuck with tech structures you don't have the gas for.
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True, but if I get off 1 tank and a walled off base with a bunker, you have GOT to get the bunker down to stand a chance. I can blue flame snipe off marines without shells, which I don't think you get. I have about 6-8 marines and 4 hellions and 1 dship at like...7? I don't even know my own timings lol.
I think though, thats the key. If you do FE when you push, pull some SCVs. The worst you do is trade at their base, and have to defend a halp hazard attack.
Even though blueflames is somewhat hide and use cheese, I feel like 2/3 rax play is very much the same. Though, this is at least a nice change in a quicker push with stim
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You make a good point about the army split, but what I was referring to and failed to communicate was that if I do do a proxy, I do it with a 3rd rax and possibly a bunker, so as to try and attempt a harder contain after the initial push.
Something that would definitely round the OP out quite nicely is a discussion on good transitions with this build after you drop your expo and start to secure a larger army. Going MMM with enough vikings for air dominance seems like it would meld well with this build; especially if you force your opponent to turtle up, at which point a few ghosts with nukes could work wonders.
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You are welcome to tinker with different transitions from this opening and if you find something stable, I will put it up in the opening post crediting you. I have only two concerns you might want to think about:
1) Making the 3rd rax a proxy and before the expansion CC will result in only 1 or 2 extra marines due to the build time. So you would have to fit it in rather early to make a difference.
2) Containing with MMM against tanks seems very hard for me in theory, because he can has the high ground of his own base and can slowly creep forward with his tanks and there is little you can do. I haven't tried it, but for me it seems that a contain in TvT needs tanks.
About the blueflame hellions:
I have done this push a few times when my opponent opened with a blue flame hellion drop (see respones section). Usually I can push his ramp, because the timing hits way before blue flame and 4-5 marines plus 1-2 hellions won't stop your push even with a bunker only if he has SCVs already in place.
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ive been using this build for a few games now and i really like it.
it gives me the chance to straight up win the game if they are going banshees or even 1/1/1, and even if i cant break their defence it gives me map control and contain them a bit while i expand
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aside from the 1 rax no gas = all in which someone mentioned earlier it seems like a solid post. I would like to emphasize to people who don't know how an up ramp push works. You need to go in marauder first to soak up the hits.
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I corrected the scouting info. For the 1 rax expand you should be able to deny the CC float to the natural by moving out earlier and camping at his natural until you hit the stim timing.
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This build reminds me of the 2rax FE 2marauder 1marine concussive shell opener in TvP. I have yet to try it and will begin implementing it into my TvT when I get home ... My question, is it as consistent as that opening? I can see how it would destroy a greedy/fast-teching Terran. But what about a Terran who goes fast siege tank, into banshee? What's your personal experience?
I love the potential follow-up without committing to 3+ Rax... this really is a flexible build! Do you have any new replays?
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Thrombozyt , thanks for posting this. I've finally started to win some TvTs with it. Any more reps, advice, or updates?
Once I get the build down a little more solidly I can post some reps of my own (gold-plat opponents).
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I've been using this exclusively this weekend. I'm a gold-level terran.
I've found that the amount of damage I do on the initial push almost determines the game. If I see the double bunker or bunker + sieged tank I pull back, but in all other cases nobody makes it back home. If I don't really hurt the opponent the counter is usually devastating.
The ptr proposed patch has a longer stim research time, so this build would be nerfed if that goes through.
What do you think of playing more defensively with stim? We have marauders to counter BF, marines to counter banshees, and a good size infantry to engage an early tank push. If we bunker our natural we can probably hold the FE. Or would another FE build be better if we want to turtle?
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Hey.. thank you for coming back to the thread. I though it was burried. Nice to see that you could make use of the opening. I have added two more replays and will try to add a few more tonight after work (have the replays, just need time to sort through them).
I have also modified the BO slightly, exchanging 1 marauder for 1 marine so that the build flows more smoothly without cutting SCVs.
As to the PTR change:
Unfortunatelly it messes up the timing badly, as you will arrive after the banshee is available against the harass build denying you a chance to bash him. Also hellion drops will come just as you push so you need to step up the multitasking.
I will have to play it through with the added 30 seconds and maybe I'll find a way to make it work.
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On March 06 2011 13:28 friendo wrote:
I've been using this exclusively this weekend. I'm a gold-level terran.
I've found that the amount of damage I do on the initial push almost determines the game. If I see the double bunker or bunker + sieged tank I pull back, but in all other cases nobody makes it back home. If I don't really hurt the opponent the counter is usually devastating.
The ptr proposed patch has a longer stim research time, so this build would be nerfed if that goes through.
What do you think of playing more defensively with stim? We have marauders to counter BF, marines to counter banshees, and a good size infantry to engage an early tank push. If we bunker our natural we can probably hold the FE. Or would another FE build be better if we want to turtle?
Actually you can play defensively with this build, too. You just miss a window to potentially put pressure on your opponent. Many TvT builds include a scan for the 3rd energy chunk. With my build here you just use that scan to check for weakness and attack if opportune.
Against all standard openings, you can play without engaging at the ramp as the ramp can be blocked.
Vs banshee you throw up turrets and have stim marines.
Vs hellion drops you get concussive shells and have stimmed marine/marauder to deal with the hellions
Vs tank pushes of any sort you go siege tank ASAP and mass up marines. You attack force lingers around his ramp to see when he pushs and delays his tanks from marching up. You can stim in and pick off a tank or two and his push will slow down or even falter.
Vs mass bio you get bunkers at your natural and go for tanks defensively. From there you try to play out your expand advantage.
Only vs no gas FE from a terran you are forced into action as he expanded before you.
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EPT
